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Replacing the Subs

GR66 said:
Silly question, but how really important is it for our subs to operate under the ice?

Answered with a question;  do the US, UK, Russia and China think it might be important?

Russian SSBNs can launch from their own side of the arctic and it doesn't make much sense for them to risk them by pushing into our waters.

Sure, if they only want to launch from there.  Is that where they would launch from in war, giving say the US time to react and counter-strike?

Are SSBNs the only nuc-powered subsurface threat?

Russian/Chinese nuclear subs may transit under the arctic icepack on their way to stations to the south, but would under the ice with all the noise, etc. be the best place to try and intercept them with our own subs?  Would we be better using the advantage of quiet diesel subs positioned at the edge of the icepack to intercept them as they come out?

What if the diesel sub is snorting when they come out?  Are they 'quiet' then, or even on station?  optimized to detect other submerged contacts?  vulnerable and easy to detect when snorting for a distance by the 'quiet nuc' contacts?

I totally get the range and endurance argument for nuclear vs conventional subs but with all the political and cost obstacles to going nuclear is it really worth it?  Would we be better off replacing our existing capability and supplementing it with other (cheaper) non-nuclear enablers?  More MPAs?  Maybe armed, unmanned subs or ASW patrol ships? Sensor systems at the NW passage choke points?

The best ASW system is a (better than your adversary's) submarine.  They can stay on station for days/weeks/months.  They can detect, track and if ever required, destroy submarines.  They carry much better torpedos for ASW and better sensors that 'live and breath' in the subsurface battlespace. 

If waterspace is iced-over, your manned/unmanned surface or air platform isn't necessarily going to be able to operate there, deploy sensors there or deploy kill stores there. 

Why spend so much time, effort and money on a system or system of systems that aren't optimized for that environment? 

This sort of ties in to a post I made in a related thread.  https://army.ca/forums/threads/16198/post-1590975.html#msg1590975


 
Underway said:
And have the civilians run DND?  Because that's where the majority of those numbers come from.  Projects are mostly civilians already.

17,000 is excessive overhead for approx 95,000 full and part time troops, I suspect we can slowly whittle that away and focus onto the non NDHQ aspects of the forces.
 
Seen the interest on nuclear subs, here it is one recent book review for those interested.


https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/under-pressure-book-review/
 
Nine months delay and overcosts detected in the starting year of Attack class boats project.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-14/audit-office-critical-of-future-submarine-procurement/11867134
 
Comment: It’s time for us to start thinking about new subs

Jeffrey F. Collins

A commentary by an adjunct professor in global affairs at the University of Prince Edward Island and a fellow with the Canadian Global Affairs Institute.

Deficits and debt are spiking, and the pandemic has overwhelmed treasury decisions. But, at some point soon, Ottawa needs to make a decision on whether to acquire a submarine replacement.

It generally takes 15 years to procure new major capital equipment for the Canadian military, and the four existing Victoria-class diesel-electric submarines acquired secondhand from Britain in 1998 have a planned operational life to 2035. Overlaying this is the reality that the two sources of past Canadian sub buys, the British and the Americans, now operate nuclear-only undersea fleets.

Past attempts at Canada going nuclear in the 1964 and 1987 defence white papers revealed that option as too costly and politically contentious. When then-defence minister Peter MacKay floated the idea again in 2011, it met opposition pushback, despite the advantages nuclear subs hold in being able to transit Arctic ice, and was quickly dropped.

Even the price tag of a non-nuclear acquisition deterred the Trudeau government from including a replacement project in its 2017 Strong, Secure, Engaged defence policy or the National Shipbuilding Strategy, a multi-decade attempt to provide the Navy and coast guard with built-in-Canada vessels. Instead, the government opted for an estimated $2.5-billion modernization project in the mid-2020s to keep the Victorias going to 2035.

With no options for new or even second-hand buys from our two closest allies, consideration will have to turn to one of three options, one of which is to build overseas, preferably in collaboration with a country with similar requirements like Australia or Japan, or to build at home using one of the National Shipbuilding Strategy yards.

Neither will be cheap. A 2003 Department of National Defence audit picked a $3-billion to $5-billion price tag for four brand new subs. That was 17 years ago. Of course, Ottawa could scrap the 100-year-old submarine service entirely as Denmark did in 2004 once the best-before date passes.

However, going the Danish route would result in the loss of a vital capability that, by its very nature, is unknown to most Canadians. Subs, after all, work best when they are out of sight.

What is known though are the headlines: the tragic 2004 fire aboard the HMCS Chicoutimi, the 2002 flooding in the HMCS Corner Brook and its grounding in 2011. Despite being purchased in 1998, years of sitting mothballed in British waters, the need to restart spare-part supply lines and to “Canadianize” the subs to our navy’s operational standards meant that Victorias did not achieve full operational status until 2015. This year, it emerged that not one of the four subs actually went to sea in 2019 due to maintenance and repair issues.

Yet beneath the surface, there is much to consider in renewing the capability. Canada’s submarines, current and past, have provided our decision-makers with vital functions that few other countries possess. Submarines are known popularly for their weapons, but it is the combination of their very presence and intelligence and surveillance capabilities, including the ability to loiter for weeks undetected, that are their greatest assets.

For a country with the world’s longest coastline, bordering three oceans, submarines have proved instrumental in upholding Canadian sovereignty and strengthening critical alliances.

A mere “notice of intention” to deploy an Oberon-class submarine altered the political calculus of Spain during the 1995 “Turbot War” off Newfoundland in Ottawa’s favour. The Victorias regularly deploy to the Arctic during the summer months for covert surveillance missions. In the Caribbean, these subs participate in anti-drug monitoring.

Further afield are the 100-day-plus missions in 2017-18 in the Mediterranean and East Asia. Working with NATO and Japanese allies, respectively, the subs were involved in training, counter-smuggling and counter-terrorism operations.

In an attempt to boost familiarity with a complex and tense region, the Pacific deployment represented the first time a Canadian sub had deployed to Japan in 50 years. Tellingly, the subs are also up for consideration for deployment to monitor the enforcement of UN sanctions against North Korea.

Even before the onset of COVID-19, the Indo-Pacific was the scene of a naval arms buildup between major regional players, China, Japan, South Korea, India and Australia. Now, factor in the worsening tensions between Beijing and Washington.

With Canada looking to uphold multilateral security norms and diversify trade relations, helping secure our own waters and those of allies will become more important, not less in the years ahead. Now is the time to consider a future replacement — a lot happens in 15 years.
https://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/op-ed/comment-it-s-time-for-us-to-start-thinking-about-new-subs-1.24147700

 
If we did things properly projects would start so that they deliver just before a system reaches its end of life.
 
I agree completely with Mr. Collins. Purchasing new subs would also help us meet our NATO defense spending commitment. This time we should buy new and license build a proven design here in Canada. We need to continue this path of rebuilding our shipyards military construction capability.
 
Dana381 said:
I agree completely with Mr. Collins. Purchasing new subs would also help us meet our NATO defense spending commitment. This time we should buy new and license build a proven design here in Canada. We need to continue this path of rebuilding our shipyards military construction capability.

No, just no, submarines require highly specialized yards to be built, we have no capacity to build subs
 
Well considering that submarines are designed to be neither seen nor heard, I don't think they are going to be high up on the priority list for the current government. There's more interest in showing the flag than creating genuine military capability.

Also, I'm pretty sure foreign submarines rate even lower than UFOs on the "worry list" of the average Canadian.
 
MilEME09 said:
No, just no, submarines require highly specialized yards to be built, we have no capacity to build subs

I will have to agree, there is no hope of a export market and the skills will fade before the next batch is needed. I would rather run the AOP's for 12 years and begin selling them off while being replaced with newer improved AOP's.
 
Off the rails here but I have a great idea. We tell everyone we are retiring the subs in 2024, but secretly send them out to the US or UK and have them gutted and remade into a giant ORCA XLUUV or RN MORAY testbed.

Use them til they sink, nobody will get hurt, fewer will even know (if you berth them somewhere that would work).

Then, buy 6 A26 SSKs from Sweden/Ned like a growup country would. Doubly better since you now have 4 XLUUVs and 4-6 SSKs but everyone thinks you have zero.

 
Definitely don't build in Canada.

Our yards have trouble building surface ships, let alone submarines....I would think it likely that if we had subs built by ISI, they'd best be unmanned...because I don't think we'd find a single sailor who'd trust their workmanship to sail in them.

NS
 
I bet if we approached the Americans we could get a redesigned Virginia class as a Diesel electric boat, really for such a ship to me, the US makes the best sense because if overhaul or repair is needed the specialized yards with all the experienced personal are right across the border.
 
NavyShooter said:
I would think it likely that if we had subs built by ISI, they'd best be unmanned...because I don't think we'd find a single sailor who'd trust their workmanship to sail in them.
The contract can state that the chief executive officer and president of Irving Shipbuilding Incorporated must both be in the submarine for every submarine’s initial sea trials.
 
MilEME09 said:
I bet if we approached the Americans we could get a redesigned Virginia class as a Diesel electric boat, really for such a ship to me, the US makes the best sense because if overhaul or repair is needed the specialized yards with all the experienced personal are right across the border.

Why?  If we can't afford a "COTS" type buy of SSK boats, why would we have/pay the money to convert a (rather good) SSN to a SSK?  I am baffled at this suggestion. 

Who says the USN even wants to let us have our hands on the spec's for the steel on the hull, let alone the rest of the tech?  The US has no interest in sharing 'anything SSN' with us;  they have, in the past, worked closely with the RN but the RN has a nuc fleet; that topic forms part of the book Submarine - A Guided Tour Inside A Nuclear Warship, if you're interested in reading some on the USN and RN nuclear submarine programs.
 
Why not just straight up by something from Germany or similar on a current production run with common parts of a larger fleet? It would be a lot easier to get some IP arrangement to do the maintenance, and cheaper to maintain then an obsolete one off fleet of a few boats.
 
I'm obviously no expert on this topic but is Canada always looking to buy from someone else?  We have smart people in this country that I'm sure can come up with designs and tech. 
 
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