Replacing the Subs
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Eye In The Sky
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Maybe we should bring in the draft. Wouldn't have to worry about not having enough people to crew ships (or anything else).
Not sure I’d want to be on a sub with people who were forced to be there and had zero/- GAFF…
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I think the new "no strings attached" plan will help with recruitment. How many people decide against military service because of the five year commitment?
globalnews.ca
Canadian Navy offers ‘no strings attached’ program amid recruitment woes - National | Globalnews.ca
Canadian citizens and permanent residents can join the navy full-time on a year-long contract and then leave if they wish to after that.
globalnews.ca
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Not sure that will help, as when folks see the state of the Frigates and Subs, and the waters they work in, and realize they can’t just walk home when one splits in 2.I think the new "no strings attached" plan will help with recruitment. How many people decide against military service because of the five year commitment?
Canadian Navy offers ‘no strings attached’ program amid recruitment woes - National | Globalnews.ca
Canadian citizens and permanent residents can join the navy full-time on a year-long contract and then leave if they wish to after that.
Rainbow1910
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I've read the original paywalled article you are talking about days ago when it originally came out but obviously I couldn't share it here. There really is not a whole lot of additional information or context missing from the original, which was similarly devoid of any real hard information. Mostly just taking a kernel of information and running with it, providing some vaguely related information most people are already aware of. I am sure that somebody leaked the 12 submarine high water negotiating point and some people ran all the way to the bank with it, screaming it to everybody like a town crier. I've seen the Canadian Standing Senate Defense Committee recommendations year upon years ago pushing for 12 submarines but negotiations or not, it doesn't really change the fact that I think 12 submarines is an unrealistically high figure to actually procure considering how much of a mess the procurement itself has the chance to be. The government asks for one thing but reality usually dictates something far less ambitious.
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Normally I would say yes if all the sailors we currently have are happy and satisfied. What do you think is going to happen when the Gap kids talk to the more saltier members of the crew?I think the new "no strings attached" plan will help with recruitment. How many people decide against military service because of the five year commitment?
Canadian Navy offers ‘no strings attached’ program amid recruitment woes - National | Globalnews.ca
Canadian citizens and permanent residents can join the navy full-time on a year-long contract and then leave if they wish to after that.
Colin Parkinson
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Likely they aimed that high in hopes of getting 6. Six would allow us to to have 2 subs operational, two in workup and two in refit.
stoker dave
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By that logic, if you have three submarines, that means one is operational, one is in workup and one in refit.
I don't think that is how things really are.
Colin Parkinson
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Well our subs are old and we had to build all the capacity all over again. Getting 6 new subs, means that the ongoing refits are not so deep and invasive. But just normal deep maintenance for the first 10+ years. The real issue will be the crews.
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By Lee Berthiaume.
CityNews
If Canada were to come out and align itself explicitly with our Arctic Council neighbours in the Joint Expeditionary Force we would be buying into a body of expertise that includes:
The UK's 4 SSBNs
Their 7 SSNs
And SSKs from Sweden (4), the Netherlands (4) and Norway (6) with the Norwegian boats built in Germany.
All three have Air Independent Propulsion boats in service or on the books.
These are the U212CDs with range greater than the 15,000 km range of the U212s.
| Displacement | 2,500 t (2,500 long tons) surfaced |
| Length | 73 m (239 ft 6 in) |
| Beam | 10 m (32 ft 10 in) |
| Draught | 7 m (23 ft 0 in) |
| Propulsion | Air-independent propulsion, two MTU diesel engines[1] |
| Speed | more than 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph) |
| Complement | ~29 |
The Swedes have their Blenkinge boats building
| Displacement | 1,925 long tons (1,956 t) surfaced |
| Length | 66.1 m (216 ft 10 in) |
| Beam | 6.75 m (22 ft 2 in) |
| Draught | 6 m (19 ft 8 in) |
| Propulsion | Diesel-electric and Stirling AIP[3] |
| Endurance | 45 days (18 days underwater with AIP)[citation needed] |
| Test depth | 200 m (656 ft 2 in) |
| Complement | 17–26[3] |
The Dutch are looking at replacing their Walrus's with either the Swedish or the German boats or acquiring a new design long range SSK.
The Budget for the Swedish and the German solution is
On the XLUUV front - Project Cetus
That could be deployed and recovered by an AOPS with its 20 tonne crane its ability to lock in TEU-20s on its after deck.
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Canadian Budget
60 BCAD for 12 subs or 5 BCAD each - presumably life cycle cost
Victorias
The German and Swedish boats operated by JEF have broadly the same design parameters but with Air Independent Propulsion and roughly half the crew.
The estimated supply cost of the Swedish and German boats to the Dutch is 1.16 BEU each in 2020 or about 1.71 BCAD.
12x 1.71 BCAD = 20.5 BCAD
Or roughly 1/3 of the life cycle budget.
Manning could be eased not just by design complement of the new boats but also by reducing the complements on the surface fleet to bring it into line with the other operators of the Type 26 and Type 31s.
Capability could be increased by deploying XLUUVs via the AOPS to cover the NW gaps in conjunction with the SSK-AIPs.
Assume a 30 year life cycle - because Canada - and your 60 BCAD costs you 2 BCAD a year and buys you 12 SSK-AIPs and perhaps a couple of dozen XLUUVs at about 25 MCAD each ( 300 MCAD for a dozen).
2 BCAD is approximately 0.08% of GDP.
Current NATO shortfall (2% - 1.32%) is 0.68% of GDP.
12 Subs would cover about 12% of the gap in the commitment.
FWIW.
60 BCAD for 12 subs or 5 BCAD each - presumably life cycle cost
Victorias
| Displacement | 2,455 t (2,416 long tons) |
| Length | 70.26 m (230 ft 6 in) |
| Beam | 7.2 m (23 ft 7 in) |
| Draught | 7.6 m (24 ft 11 in) |
| Propulsion |
|
| Speed |
|
| Range |
|
| Endurance | 30 days |
| Test depth | Over 656.17 ft (200 m) |
| Complement | 53 |
The German and Swedish boats operated by JEF have broadly the same design parameters but with Air Independent Propulsion and roughly half the crew.
The estimated supply cost of the Swedish and German boats to the Dutch is 1.16 BEU each in 2020 or about 1.71 BCAD.
12x 1.71 BCAD = 20.5 BCAD
Or roughly 1/3 of the life cycle budget.
Manning could be eased not just by design complement of the new boats but also by reducing the complements on the surface fleet to bring it into line with the other operators of the Type 26 and Type 31s.
Capability could be increased by deploying XLUUVs via the AOPS to cover the NW gaps in conjunction with the SSK-AIPs.
Assume a 30 year life cycle - because Canada - and your 60 BCAD costs you 2 BCAD a year and buys you 12 SSK-AIPs and perhaps a couple of dozen XLUUVs at about 25 MCAD each ( 300 MCAD for a dozen).
2 BCAD is approximately 0.08% of GDP.
Current NATO shortfall (2% - 1.32%) is 0.68% of GDP.
12 Subs would cover about 12% of the gap in the commitment.
FWIW.
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Forgot to include the Project Cetus XLUUV link above.
www.navalnews.com
MSubs wins UK Royal Navy Contract for Cetus XLUUV - Naval News
A £15.4 million contract for a cutting-edge crewless submarine known as Cetus XLUUV has been awarded to Plymouth firm MSubs by the Royal Navy.
www.navalnews.com
OldSolduer
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I don't know if you've read the whole conscription business that went on during WW2 - English Canada wanted it, Quebec wanted no part of it.Maybe we should bring in the draft. Wouldn't have to worry about not having enough people to crew ships (or anything else).
"Not necessarily conscription, conscription if necessary" was McKenzie King's line. PLUS when conscription happened the conscripts could not be ordered overseas - they had to volunteer. Those that did not were called "zombies".
Conscription in this nation is a no go.
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Absolutely no disagreements on the pessimistic view of procurement and this government's priorities. But, simply base on open source info and publicly acknowledged commitments - is there any reason why 12 subs is an unrealistic aspiration for the RCN?
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You know, every time I see something about the Anita Anand it seems like she's fighting within cabinet for DND. I don't think she's gonna win all those fights or even the majority of them but it's frankly refreshing to hear.
I mean it depends on a bunch of factors but the "ideal" is for every three ships you have one in a DWP, one in transition out or into a DWP and one at higher readyness. West Coast example CAL is going into DWP, REG is coming out of DWP, OTT is newly HR, VAN and WIN are also available to sail, WIN is going into a lower readyness state while OTT and VAN are deploying.
So it's roughly accurate. East Coast is having a bit harder time because their ships have been rode hard and put away wet so to speak.
I mean it depends on a bunch of factors but the "ideal" is for every three ships you have one in a DWP, one in transition out or into a DWP and one at higher readyness. West Coast example CAL is going into DWP, REG is coming out of DWP, OTT is newly HR, VAN and WIN are also available to sail, WIN is going into a lower readyness state while OTT and VAN are deploying.
So it's roughly accurate. East Coast is having a bit harder time because their ships have been rode hard and put away wet so to speak.
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Absolutely.
About 85% of Canadians students graduate High School each year.
In the 2021/21 school year, about 35,480 students graduated from public schools in Canada. (Apparently).
It sounds as if the CAF needs to capture about 20% of that number (7000 or so) annually voluntarily to sustain the planned manning levels.
20% is not a small number.
Is the plan realistic?
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It's only unrealistic in terms of people. We've got an ageing demographic, which will lead to job shortages of critical skills. It's already hard enough to have people join. Its harder to have people join the sub fleet.
Two reasons for that. First is your basically cut off from your family, no emails, no cell phone calls when you're near shore, no satcom wifi etc... Not everyone likes that. Some do (I would have a hard time as I like to email home once a day to check on the fam jam).
Second is that subs are a challenging work environment and ask more of you as a sailor to work in them. Your damage control has to be on point, you have to be able to do the egress training, and you have to deal with claustraphobic environment. New subs that are better designed for people working in them would change things.
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So we have to build boats with fewer bunks and more HMIs?
And
If only 1/3 of the fleet is in the water at one time should we be looking at maintaining crews for the entire fleet? How about 2 crews responsible for 3 boats?
IKnowNothing
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I believe you're off by an order of magnitude
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