Replacing the Subs

[Kirkhill]

I believe you're off by an order of magnitude

Could be.

Canada: public school graduates 2002-2021​

Published by Statista Research Department, Nov 23, 2022
This statistic shows the total number of students graduated from public schools in Canada from 2002/03 to 2021/21. In the 2021/21 school year, about 35,480 students graduated from public schools in Canada.

Canada: public school graduates 2022 | Statista

This statistic shows the total number of students who graduated from public schools in Canada from 2002/03 to 2021/22.

www.statista.com

Your number would be more in keeping with this info from the same source

Canada: elementary/secondary school enrollment by province 2022 | Statista

This graph shows the total number of students enrolled in public elementary and secondary schools in Canada in the academic year 2021/22, distinguished by province.

www.statista.com

That would reduce the recruiting challenge from 20% of grads to 2% of grads - a much more manageable number

And more reason for optimism.


Thanks for giving me more reason for hope.

 

[Dana381]

So we have to build boats with fewer bunks and more HMIs?

And

If only 1/3 of the fleet is in the water at one time should we be looking at maintaining crews for the entire fleet? How about 2 crews responsible for 3 boats?

That strikes me as a quick way to piss off two crews and be left with one crew or less. I have never sailed besides as a passenger on the Marine Atlantic ferries but don't navy types have a ship identity that binds them together. If you flip them around they will not work as well together.

 

[KevinB]

That strikes me as a quick way to piss off two crews and be left with one crew or less. I have never sailed besides as a passenger on the Marine Atlantic ferries but don't navy types have a ship identity that binds them together. If you flip them around they will not work as well together.

I think he’s talking about 2 distinct crews, but they rotate boats as needed.

Really sucks when you realize that you need three boats operating due to Necessity of Service.

It’s ass backwards to what the Boomer crews do down here. Two crews, 1 boat.

 

[Dana381]

I think he’s talking about 2 distinct crews, but they rotate boats as needed.

Really sucks when you realize that you need three boats operating due to Necessity of Service.

It’s ass backwards to what the Boomer crews do down here. Two crews, 1 boat.

With new boats you can do that. Funny huh

 

[KevinB]

With new boats you can do that. Funny huh

Oh you meant actually new boats not just new to the RCN…

 

[dimsum]

If only 1/3 of the fleet is in the water at one time should we be looking at maintaining crews for the entire fleet? How about 2 crews responsible for 3 boats?

That sounds like what the MCDVs did (and maybe still do). There are 6 on each coast but only 4-5 were active and had crew assigned to them.

 

[Underway]

MCDV's don't really do that as much anymore. AOPS is sucking up personelle from those fleets, particularly Mar Techs as they are also electrical motor ships. I'm fine with that though, AOPS is generally more capable and frankly the crew love sailing on them from what I can tell. There are lots of folks who are asking their CM to go to AOPS or JSS. Different look, new ship, new experiences.

 

[Kirkhill]

I think he’s talking about 2 distinct crews, but they rotate boats as needed.

Really sucks when you realize that you need three boats operating due to Necessity of Service.

It’s ass backwards to what the Boomer crews do down here. Two crews, 1 boat.

Necessity of Service doesn't count if your boat is in dock and missing a shaft.

 

[Kirkhill]

MCDV's don't really do that as much anymore. AOPS is sucking up personelle from those fleets, particularly Mar Techs as they are also electrical motor ships. I'm fine with that though, AOPS is generally more capable and frankly the crew love sailing on them from what I can tell. There are lots of folks who are asking their CM to go to AOPS or JSS. Different look, new ship, new experiences.

Better bunks, gyms and wifi?

 

[Underway]

Better bunks, gyms and wifi?

Fleet's redirecting pers to the AOPs. AOPs can do a lot of the MCDV jobs better. Also yah, better cabins, newer ship. Also there is a lot of interest in going to a new ship and being the first or one of the first onboard, to break new ice so to speak.

 

[Kirkhill]

Here's how you get 60 BCAD for Submarines from a Green Government.

Marine Modules - Fuel Cell Power Products | Ballard Power

Ballard’s 200 kilowatt system, FCwave™, is specifically designed to provide zero-emission power to marine vessels.

www.ballard.com

German Navy Launches U31 Fuel Cell Submarine - News

eepower.com

Non-Nuclear Submarines? Choose Fuel Cells

Fuel cell–powered submarines could offer the U.S. Navy a non-nuclear alternative that is stealthy, mobile, and affordable.

www.usni.org

Impressive: Japan Has a Powerful New Stealth Submarine

Tokyo isn't joking around.

nationalinterest.org

Korean Defense Science Research Institute Develops Methanol Fuel Cell for Submarines - Fuelcellsworks

The Defense Science Research Institute announced on the 22nd that it has developed 'methanol reforming plant technology for submarine fuel cells', which can imp...

fuelcellsworks.com

And Methanol as the Intermediary.


Easier to handle than Natural Gas or LNG.

Can be manufactured from any Hydrocarbons.

Energy efficient

Burns clean



I wonder if we could use 3D printing for this

H I Sutton - Covert Shores

3D Printing For Piping « Fabbaloo

Charles R. Goulding and Peter Favata consider timely 3D printing applications that could help repair damaged piping.

www.fabbaloo.com

 

[Kirkhill]

https://majorprojects.alberta.ca/details/Nauticol-Energy-Net-Zero-Blue-Methanol-Project/3748

Methanol - Yayyyy!

Alberta - Booo!

Cancelled

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/calgary-energy-firm-backs-away-from-proposed-4b-northern-alberta-methanol-plant-1.6739176

Buuut ...

Japan firms eye ammonia, methanol projects in Canada, Alberta minister says

Japanese companies are looking to invest in the Canadian province of Alberta to produce ammonia and methanol in the effort to build global supply chains of greener energy to fight climate change, a provincial minister said.

www.reuters.com

Japanese and/or Korean Subs with Ballard Fuel Cells from BC?

Alberta hydrocarbons to methanol and ammonia for domestic and export markets

Methanol powered subs.

 

[Maxman1]

$60 billion is about what the Attack class was estimated to cost Australia.

 

[Czech_pivo]

If you want 6 then you make a case for 12. GOC "talks" you into accepting 6 and they are happy. Meanwhile you got exactly what you wanted. Plus then you have a reason to say no to some tastings... "if we would have bought 12 we could have done that"

So in essence Canada goes from bringing a pen knife to a pocket knife to the gun fight that we might find ourselves in sometime in the medium term and that's considered an upgrade by the GoC.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

So in essence Canada goes from bringing a pen knife to a pocket knife to the gun fight that we might find ourselves in sometime in the medium term and that's considered an upgrade by the GoC.

The Victoria's as they are currently equipped are no slouchs and a dangerous opponent to anyone. The more modern subs reduce the Achilles heel of conventional subs, so we would be bringing a very capable piece of kit to the fight. Only a handful of navies run nuclear subs and they have their own Achilles heels.

 

[Maxman1]

Plus the reactors will always make more noise than electric batteries.

 

[GR66]

The Victoria's as they are currently equipped are no slouchs and a dangerous opponent to anyone. The more modern subs reduce the Achilles heel of conventional subs, so we would be bringing a very capable piece of kit to the fight. Only a handful of navies run nuclear subs and they have their own Achilles heels.

I don't think it's a question of whether the Victorias are capable platforms or not. It's just a question of numbers. With a total fleet size of four or even six boats how much of our coastline could you protect in case of a conflict with China and/or Russia? What realistic expeditionary offensive capability would you have?

What is the opportunity cost of maintaining a micro fleet of submarines vs other capabilities that may provide you equal or greater overall effect? For example how many P-8's could you purchase and man for the cost of purchasing and maintaining 4-6 SSKs? Certainly a single SSK is a more potent asset than a single P-8, but if a single A26 AIP submarine costs around $816 million USD* and a P-8 cost around $150 million*, then would a fleet of 6 x A26 subs ($5 billion USD) be more useful than 33 x P-8's for Canada?

*unit costs from Wikipedia. As with any military platform costing both numbers should be considered guestimates.

 

[Maxman1]

I wonder, after a new fleet is purchased, would it be worth keeping the Victorias as Nav Res trainers?

Also, would lower end torpedos like the British Mk VIII and deck guns still be viable today for targets not worth a Mk 48 torpedo?

 

[dapaterson]

I wonder, after a new fleet is purchased, would it be worth keeping the Victorias as Nav Res trainers?

No.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I don't think it's a question of whether the Victorias are capable platforms or not. It's just a question of numbers. With a total fleet size of four or even six boats how much of our coastline could you protect in case of a conflict with China and/or Russia? What realistic expeditionary offensive capability would you have?

What is the opportunity cost of maintaining a micro fleet of submarines vs other capabilities that may provide you equal or greater overall effect? For example how many P-8's could you purchase and man for the cost of purchasing and maintaining 4-6 SSKs? Certainly a single SSK is a more potent asset than a single P-8, but if a single A26 AIP submarine costs around $816 million USD* and a P-8 cost around $150 million*, then would a fleet of 6 x A26 subs ($5 billion USD) be more useful than 33 x P-8's for Canada?

*unit costs from Wikipedia. As with any military platform costing both numbers should be considered guestimates.

Subs are mobile minefields and area denial weapons. You could position one off of Japan and China would have to expend about 5 ships and 10 aircraft to find and track it. Pretty only the subs are the offensive weapon of the RCN, the Halifax's and ASW aircraft are defensive most of the time.