Replacing the Subs

[Colin Parkinson]

Apparently Trudeau just said that we are going ahead with the 12 subs

https://twitter.com/x/status/1811442194592501766

I just listened to a bunch of it, 2% by 2032 and regular Defense reviews starting 2028. Seems he was making re-announcing previous announcements to a near empty room

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Sorry, but 2,300 tons is NOT a corvette. It's a full size frigate.

 

[Maxman1]

Sorry, but 2,300 tons is NOT a corvette. It's a full size frigate.

Most sources I've seen suggest 3,000 as the cutoff point.

 

[Nvlgzr]

AECL hasn’t closed, and are in fact working with the Ontario government and Ontario Power Generation and CANDU Canada for consideration of building an additional 4x1000MW reactor NGS beside Darlington, in Wesleyville, near the site of the old Wesleyville NG power plant.

AECL is out of the nuclear fission & isotope production business. They are left with cleanup of their old facilities and shuttered Canadian CANDU sites. Their CNL division is available to assist in testing and research. My point was that Canada is out of the reactor business unless SNC Lavalin (AtkinsRealis) can pull a rabbit out of their hat.
Wesleyville is the most promising of 3 possible sites for building a new Nuclear generating station because it was originally planned to be such 50 years ago. Now that Doug Ford has been re-elected such a project has a better chance of proceeding. But with Pickering ‘B’ refurbishment starting this summer and Darlington’s 4 SMC’s proceeding , there is a lot on OPG’s plate. There is an oil fired station built at Wesleyville that never operated but never a nuc.

 

[Nvlgzr]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1811442194592501766

I just listened to a bunch of it, 2% by 2032 and regular Defense reviews starting 2028. Seems he was making re-announcing previous announcements to a near empty room

This is from July 2024. Now that JT has called it quits is it still valid?

 

[Good2Golf]

This is from July 2024. Now that JT has called it quits is it still valid?

Colin’s point was about Trudeau stating 12 subs, not the NATO 2% by 2032. Anyone who states today a 2032 aim point for 2% GDP is not of sound mind.

 

[Nvlgzr]

Colin’s point was about Trudeau stating 12 subs, not the NATO 2% by 2032. Anyone who states today a 2032 aim point for 2% GDP is not of sound mind.

After all the decades of slowly killing ( no pun intended) off the CF to fund social engineering programs, I have trouble believing we would buy more than 6 or so subs or spend 2%. I accept and expect we must do it but after Trump is gone by 2029 (hopefully sooner) I feel we’ll revert back to our previous path. Sorry for being so pessimistic.

 

[Swampbuggy]

After all the decades of slowly killing ( no pun intended) off the CF to fund social engineering programs, I have trouble believing we would buy more than 6 or so subs or spend 2%. I accept and expect we must do it but after Trump is gone by 2029 (hopefully sooner) I feel we’ll revert back to our previous path. Sorry for being so pessimistic.

If you were really being pessimistic, you’d have noted Trump may still be there AFTER 2029…

 

[suffolkowner]

Apparently Trudeau just said that we are going ahead with the 12 subs

minute 15

 

[OldSolduer]

minute 15

This isn’t the Beaverton….

I gotta give him credit. I never thought he’d do it.

 

[Czech_pivo]

minute 15

I heard it. Didn’t give me warm and fuzzy that it’s a done deal, just sounded like a talking point.

 

[Nvlgzr]

If you were really being pessimistic, you’d have noted Trump may still be there AFTER 2029…

Trump may want to but he cannot get 60% of congress vote to repeal term limits…. But then Scotus Robert’s has already indicated that this president is exempt from prosecution. Next, he’ll be demanding UK provide him with a Crown and Scepter or else face tariffs.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

This is from July 2024. Now that JT has called it quits is it still valid?

Thanks for the catch, I was looking for a the announcement that was apparently in the last couple of days.

 

[OldSolduer]

Sorry, but 2,300 tons is NOT a corvette. It's a full size frigate.

Land lubber here my good man - so what is the tonnage of a corvette as opposed to a frigate?

I know about only three types of surface ships - carriers, battleships, cruisers and destroyers. Four then....

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Noah has an interesting email out that speculates that a decision on the CPSP may be coming quicker than we think. Apparently a new amendment (see attached) to the original RFI came out yesterday stating that has Canada completed its review and has cancelled any one-on-one meetings that were planned.

Noah is speculating that the cancelling of the meetings may indicate a decision may be coming sometime this year, a lot earlier than planned.

We shall wait and see.

Unfortunately, I was unable to re-produce the whole email in its entirety.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Poland in final stages of submarine negotiations​

Poland in final stages of submarine talks

Poland operates a single submarine that entered service in the 1980s.

tvpworld.com

Poland is in advanced negotiations with six countries to purchase three new submarines under the long-delayed “Orka” program, with a decision expected by early 2025, Polish media report.

The Polish Defense Ministry is in government-to-government talks with France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Sweden and South Korea, evaluating proposals based on submarine capabilities, financing and delivery schedules.
Deputy Defense Minister Paweł Bejda recently met officials in Italy, Germany and Sweden to review offers. Further talks with French representatives are scheduled in the coming weeks, the Polish newspaper Rzeczpospolita reported.

Poland’s Armament Agency has assessed the bids, ranking those from Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, Saab from Sweden and Italy’s Fincantieri as the most competitive. South Korea initially presented two bids but has consolidated its offer under Hanwha Ocean.

A final decision is expected by September, during the International Defence Industry Exhibition in Kielce, with a formal contract anticipated in the following months. However, delivery is unlikely before 2032, meaning the new submarines will not become operational until the latter half of the next decade.

 

[Czech_pivo]

And this -

Morocco : Naval Group and TKMS vie to supply Rabat with submarines

The Moroccan navy wants to acquire two military submarines, prompting fierce competition between suppliers. France's Naval Group is lobbying Rabat hard, while Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems is

www.africaintelligence.com

Its behind a paywall but the first bit is interesting........

The Moroccan navy wants to acquire two military submarines, prompting fierce competition between suppliers. France's Naval Group is lobbying Rabat hard, while Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems is also making its move.

Without knowing the timelines or the model being considered, it is questionable how Germany would be in a position to meet our needs, Norway's and Germany's and in addition to that, Morocco's..... I think that the Germans would screw us over if we signed with them and they also won the Morocco bid. We'd be long in waiting to get our 12 subs.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Without knowing the timelines or the model being considered, it is questionable how Germany would be in a position to meet our needs, Norway's and Germany's and in addition to that, Morocco's..... I think that the Germans would screw us over if we signed with them and they also won the Morocco bid. We'd be long in waiting to get our 12 subs.

It is increasingly evident to me that the Germans are acting incredibly greedily regarding foreign submarine offers, clinging on for dear life while continuing to court more and more business. Germany has a substantial order book already established and keeps trying to add to it, seemingly with little regard for delivery schedules or reality.

 

[Underway]

Land lubber here my good man - so what is the tonnage of a corvette as opposed to a frigate?

I know about only three types of surface ships - carriers, battleships, cruisers and destroyers. Four then....

So ships are supposed to be named by their role not their tonnage. It the Canadian tradition Destroyers do area air warfare and command and control functions, frigates are General purpose. There is a lot of overlap in naming with regards to tonnage and different countries use different naming conventions. The Germans and French for example use frigate for any blue water escort vessel. Germans go further with AAW frigate, ASW frigate etc... The new german frigate is 10'000 tons. But it doesn't have any anti sub capability, and self defence air capability only. Its a "destroyer" tonnage but a frigates capability.

There is some discussion that a modern definition should be regarding the ships total capability. Destroyers can perform in all areas of naval warfare and have the sensors to do so. Frigates can perform well in most areas of naval warfare usually lacking in one area (area air defence for example), Corvettes are good in one or two areas of naval warfare with only self defence capability in others.

In Canada's case these corvettes will likely have a self defense gun (57-76mm), a decent sensor package, one fire control radar, some electronic warfare defence, a single sonar (towed or hull mounted), strike length vertical launch systems. Their job is to be a sensor package and missile truck for continental defence. In a continental defence role they are to plug into other assets to teamwork defend Canada. Sonar to work with MPA's, radar to connect with NORAD, large missile capability for BMD capability or other things. So frigate or corvette, call them what you will, that's the job they are supposed to do.

 

[IKnowNothing]

In Canada's case these corvettes will likely have a self defense gun (57-76mm), a decent sensor package, one fire control radar, some electronic warfare defence, a single sonar (towed or hull mounted), strike length vertical launch systems. Their job is to be a sensor package and missile truck for continental defence. In a continental defence role they are to plug into other assets to teamwork defend Canada. Sonar to work with MPA's, radar to connect with NORAD, large missile capability for BMD capability or other things. So frigate or corvette, call them what you will, that's the job they are supposed to do.

Way out of my lane here, but based on this and looking a MOTS options, could something stealthy like the Visby work?
Be capable of going active when needed but also be able to be out patrolling in passive mode, take steers from MPA's, AEW's, and CSC's without giving up its position. Almost sub-like in using the uncertainty of its presence as a force multiplier since we can't be everywhere.