Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins

[BernDawg]

:goodpost:
Amen brother!

 

[MeatheadMick]

I love my Sigs (5 of them) However I shudder to think of their fates in the hands of the well intentioned solider/officer. Maintaining the anodized coating on the frame wear points is critical to their longevity and someone who drops $1,000 on a gun will take care of them. But for the reservist who has to clean their equipment in a hurry at the end of ex will take shortcuts using stuff that will wear the finish. Also the grip screw bushings are a real bitch, and even worse on the 229. It does not take much to ruin them.

The 2022 is the only Sig I would consider for general issue. Much more forgiving of abuse than it’s alloy cousins.

I can really only speak for the P225, but I haven't seen too much wear on any of them to a detrimental effect. Being a meathead I've seen a lot of Sigs, and even the ones at CFMPA are in decent condition.

Snip.
Someone however is clearly anti-Glock - probably because they believe troops are too stupid to clear the gun before pulling the trigger during disassembly.
Snip.

I've seen some pretty ridiculous circumstances for Negligent Discharges... it will happen, I almost guarantee you.

 

[KevinB]

Well I copy pasted this from above - I wonder what "Full size" means?

1. Full Size, DAO Trigger
2. Current NATO Service + 2 years
3. 9mm
4. Magazine >13rds, >15rds is better
5. Unloaded weight + empty magazine must be < 950g
6. Barrel must be 102mm or longer
7. Trigger pull must be between 4-8 lbs
8. Ambidextrous magazine release
9. Must not need to pull the trigger to disassemble
10. No magazine safety
11. No safety devices to manipulate
12. Must have an M 1913 accessory rail
13. Trigger pull weight must be consistent every Shot.

Color me confused but I don't actually see a pistol that meets the criteria anywhere?

Several Federal Entities down here issue Glock's and Smith&Wesson M&P guns - but in either .40S&W or .45ACP.

Hk seems to have the only truly ambo mag release - with their dual lever.  But the USP is a brick, and a poor contender to their new designs.

28 NATO Countries use the following

Albania - M9/Beretta 92
Belgium - Hi-Power and FN 5.7
Bulgaria - Sig Pro 2022
Canada - No2 Mk1* (Browning Hi-Power) and Sig P225
Croatia - HS2000 / Springfield XD
Czech Republic - CZ-75
Denmark - Glock 17
Estonia - Hk USP
France - Hk USP and Glock 17
Germany - Hk USP
Greece - Glock 17
Hungary - Hk USP
Iceland - Glock 17
Italy - Beretta
Latvia - Glock 19 and Glock 17
Lithuania - Glock 17
Luxembourg - Mk1 Browning Hi-Power
Netherlands - Glock 17
Norway - Glock 17
Poland - well GROM uses the Hk USP
Portugal - Glock 19 (replaced the Hk USP in 2009)
Romania - appears to still be their version of the Tokarev
Slovakia - appears to still be their version of the Makarov
Slovenia - I cannot locate any info
Spain - Hk USP
Turkey - Zignana C45 - a .45 ACP gun
United Kingdom - BHP and Sig P226
United States - M9 Beretta, Glock 19, and 1911




Okay so the current Browning Hi-Power is out, as is the SigP225.

Leaving the remaining 9mm guns as:

Sig P226R -
Sig P228R -
Sig Pro 2022 -
Glock 17 - squeeze trigger on disassembly
Glock 19 - squeeze trigger on disassembly
HS2000/Springfield XD - pretty poor performance in any US LE entity testing.
Beretta M-9 - Not DOA in issue configuration - and too big/heavy
CZ 75 B - not DOA
CZ PO1 - to small
HK USP – expensive and no 1913 rail


Based on the above I believe that the spec has been written for the Sig Pro 2022 exclusively to justify a sole source award.

 

[MeatheadMick]

Snip.

Based on the above I believe that the spec has been written for the Sig Pro 2022 exclusively to justify a sole source award.

It definitely appears to look that way.  I still don't think they could manage to contract Sig's TDP for Colt Canada... guess we'll see what happens.

*Edit

A little more research shows that the Pro 2022 is a DA/SA trigger and 12 rd capacity in 9mm... seems like there is no current NATO Service pistol that can meet ALL the requirements...

**Edit2

Disregard, spoke to soon... apparently there is a 9mm that holds 15 rds, and from Cabelas.com

Available in 9mm and .40 S&W, the SP2022 can easily be converted from a double-action/single-action to a double-action-only configuration through a unique integral fire-control unit.

 

[KevinB]

Now I fully agree with Sole Sourcing items if there is a Immediate Operational Requirement.

In situations like that it is often best to them buy what the "National Force" uses (in Canadian speak that means buy what JTF-2 has, down here that means the CAG, and England the SAS and so on).  However National Force units often have a 4 or 5 year life-cycle for small arms - meaning they replace the weapons after 4 (or5) years.  Conventional Force units tend to not be able to replace small arms like computers and operating systems.
What can happen then is the convention unit can get stuck with an item that is really not suited for longevity, or on the flip side gets a great system without the headaches of prolonged procurement.

Now since JTF-2 and other CANSOF elements don't issue the Sig Pro 2022 to the best of my knowledge (which I could be totally wrong on) I get worried about sole source selection based on somewhat subjective requirements.  Also the Canadian government does not get the best bid, as frankly if there is only one option the manufacturer is not really all that interested in being cost competitive.

Now on the other hand Sig may be interested in a channel partner role with Colt Canada - I doubt it, but I could be wrong.

 

[KevinB]

Sig SP2022 is a 15rd gun, that has DAO ability.

From what I remember from my Sig P series armorer class I took any Sig pistol can be converted to DOA will a little parts swap.


However the barrel length on the gun is 99.06mm

Back to the drawing board.

 

[Dissident]

and even the ones at CFMPA are in decent condition.

:

 

[Good2Golf]

Is it just me, or does the 102mm min barrel length sound like someone in DLR shouted across a few cubicles, " Hey guys, what's 4" converted into millimeters?"

 

[MeatheadMick]

:

I said decent not good lol  Anyone who has used them know they are not in perfect condition, but the amount of rounds put through them and the abuse students put them through, they aren't bad.
Now having said that... I will put sim rounds through my P225 any day but generally speaking shudder at the mere thought of doing the same with CFMPA's firearms.

Is it just me, or does the 102mm min barrel length sound like someone in DLR shouted across a few cubicles, " Hey guys, what's 4" converted into millimeters?"

No Shit!  ;D

 

[Fishbone Jones]

They don't need DAO. That's a CYA solution for lawyers. SA\DA is fine.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Is it just me, or does the 102mm min barrel length sound like someone in DLR shouted across a few cubicles, " Hey guys, what's 4" converted into millimeters?"

Makes them prohibited class for civilian surplus sale 

 

[MeatheadMick]

Strange that all the requirements seem to fit Sig Sauer almost to a tee, minus a few features...

P226 is too heavy

P228/229/Pro2022 barrel is too short

P250 not long enough service time

Still seems like less strikes than others... they seem to have really nailed Glock with the no trigger pull on take down though, perhaps nailing themselves out of a price efficient and effective weapon. The one thing I did note about the Pro 2022 was the take-down lever. I personally prefer the P226's sliding lever wrt ease of operation, and one less removed part during a field strip.

 

[Dissident]

My definition of decent might include functioning pistols with (well) worn finish. However it does not include pistols prone to multiple stoppages (non mag related). Of the six pistol we had on the line last year, two were actually tagged out of service, to my great surprise.

 

[Redeye]

Well I copy pasted this from above - I wonder what "Full size" means?

1. Full Size, DAO Trigger
2. Current NATO Service + 2 years
3. 9mm
4. Magazine >13rds, >15rds is better
5. Unloaded weight + empty magazine must be < 950g
6. Barrel must be 102mm or longer
7. Trigger pull must be between 4-8 lbs
8. Ambidextrous magazine release
9. Must not need to pull the trigger to disassemble
10. No magazine safety
11. No safety devices to manipulate
12. Must have an M 1913 accessory rail
13. Trigger pull weight must be consistent every Shot.

Color me confused but I don't actually see a pistol that meets the criteria anywhere?

Several Federal Entities down here issue Glock's and Smith&Wesson M&P guns - but in either .40S&W or .45ACP.

Hk seems to have the only truly ambo mag release - with their dual lever.  But the USP is a brick, and a poor contender to their new designs.

28 NATO Countries use the following

Albania - M9/Beretta 92
Belgium - Hi-Power and FN 5.7
Bulgaria - Sig Pro 2022
Canada - No2 Mk1* (Browning Hi-Power) and Sig P225
Croatia - HS2000 / Springfield XD
Czech Republic - CZ-75
Denmark - Glock 17
Estonia - Hk USP
France - Hk USP and Glock 17
Germany - Hk USP
Greece - Glock 17
Hungary - Hk USP
Iceland - Glock 17
Italy - Beretta
Latvia - Glock 19 and Glock 17
Lithuania - Glock 17
Luxembourg - Mk1 Browning Hi-Power
Netherlands - Glock 17
Norway - Glock 17
Poland - well GROM uses the Hk USP
Portugal - Glock 19 (replaced the Hk USP in 2009)
Romania - appears to still be their version of the Tokarev
Slovakia - appears to still be their version of the Makarov
Slovenia - I cannot locate any info
Spain - Hk USP
Turkey - Zignana C45 - a .45 ACP gun
United Kingdom - BHP and Sig P226
United States - M9 Beretta, Glock 19, and 1911




Okay so the current Browning Hi-Power is out, as is the SigP225.

Leaving the remaining 9mm guns as:

Sig P226R -
Sig P228R -
Sig Pro 2022 -
Glock 17 - squeeze trigger on disassembly
Glock 19 - squeeze trigger on disassembly
HS2000/Springfield XD - pretty poor performance in any US LE entity testing.
Beretta M-9 - Not DOA in issue configuration - and too big/heavy
CZ 75 B - not DOA
CZ PO1 - to small
HK USP – expensive and no 1913 rail


Based on the above I believe that the spec has been written for the Sig Pro 2022 exclusively to justify a sole source award.

Albanians carry Px4 Storms in Afghanistan. Romanians seem to have a mix of Makarovs and Glock 17s. The French who don't care their old M1950 carry M92s. Sigs are popular with the US contractors here - the ones not carrying M9s are all carrying Sigs.

 

[Good2Golf]

Makes them prohibited class for civilian surplus sale 

Ah, seen...  :nod:

 

[KevinB]

They don't need DAO. That's a CYA solution for lawyers. SA\DA is fine.

I disagree.

I don't like DAO - specifically - but any changing trigger pull from first to second shot is no bueno.  Regardless if your a door-kicking super stud, or an MP, you're going to shoot better with a single trigger pull, than one that changes from time to time.   

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The 2022 hammerbox can be swapped as a unit

See at 5:20 on this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT37_OXQKek

 

[MeatheadMick]

My definition of decent might include functioning pistols with (well) worn finish. However it does not include pistols prone to multiple stoppages (non mag related). Of the six pistol we had on the line last year, two were actually tagged out of service, to my great surprise.

A little Off-topic but interesting, I did my 3's in 2010, and the pistols weren't all complete garbage... Still in better condition than many weapons in the Infantry School vault.

 

[KevinB]

Well I still don't know of a pistol that fits the criteria.

The other question is what is the NATO service criteria, as if that is answered it may make a little difference.

 

[CombatDoc]

Rather than the question of "which pistol should we procure to replace the Browning HP", perhaps the question should be "DO we need to replace the Browning HP".  Should we turn the sidearm paradigm upside down and state something like combat arms get a C7, support troops get an HK MPX?  We should, if we haven't already, analyze the data from 10 years in Afghanistan and determine how many - if any - times the pistol was used in a combat situation.  if the answer is "Never", perhaps we should rethink our doctrine.  Pistol + 3 x mags + 3 x 10+ rounds is Y pounds not carried that can lighten the soldier's combat load.