Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins

[Kokanee]

 

[Good2Golf]

Feature #3 is the best!  ;D

 

[medicineman]

Feature #3 is the best!  ;D

Ditto...It'll be like Firefox - you'll have to think it in Czech (if CZ), German (if SIG), etc.  If you don't think in those languages, start throwing rocks.

MM

 

[FlyingDutchman]

With 5 it might make an effective boomerang.

 

[PuckChaser]

I love the CADPAT grips... surprised the midlife upgrade for the C7A2 wasn't CADPAT TW furniture.

 

[KevinB]

Cancelled as no one would hand over the TDP, and I honestly dont think there is a gun out there that has all the features.

  Modular Handgun is still steaming (slowly) forward down here, by all reading of the requirements a .45 S&W M&P with threaded barrel (as all soldier are given a suppressor for their pistol right...) is the leading/prefered candidate - but Glock, Sig and Hk may pull something off.

 

[MeatheadMick]

So now almost a year later... is there any recent rumblings on either the new GSP or the SAM?

 

[a_majoor]

Maybe we need to do it this way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJRLoGYtkEM 

 

[PJOsborne]

We sat in the office one day and tried to figure out a pistol that had all of the mandatory features that DND wanted.... couldn't think of one. Hopefully they'll make it more realistic, especially since they wanted a double action trigger with the same pull weight for the first and second pulls.

I've been doing some research on NATO member pistols, and I think there are a few likely candidates, but they all seem to be disqualified on a few minor points.
GSP Requirements (condensed):
1. Full Size, DAO Trigger
2. Current NATO Service + 2 years
3. 9mm
4. Magazine >13rds, >15rds is better
5. Unloaded weight + empty magazine must be < 950g
6. Barrel must be 102mm or longer
7. Trigger pull must be between 4-8 lbs
8. Ambidextrous magazine release
9. Must not need to pull the trigger to disassemble
10. No magazine safety
11. No safety devices to manipulate
12. Must have an M1913 accessory rail
13. Trigger pull weight must be consistent every time


I think the following pistols are likely choices: Sig P226 or 229 DAK; Walther PPQ; H&K P30; H&K USP; Glock 17; Springfield XD9, Smith and Wesson M&P 9

And here is why I think each of them is disqualified:
- The Sig P226 is over the weight limit by 14g. The DAO trigger system is a 10lb pull, which exceeds the requirement. The Sig DAK trigger varies between ~8lbs and 6.5lbs, depending on the method you pull the trigger. The GSP requires a consistent trigger pull weight, so I think that's why a Sig won't be eligible.

- The Walther PPQ, is a variant of the P99QA, and on the face of it would meet all the requirements, except that I haven't seen any evidence that a single NATO member's military uses it.

- H&K P30 also seems to meet all the paper specs, but I can't find evidence that any NATO countries use it.

- H&K USP seems to be the most likely choice, since it meets every single requirement. USPs, however, do not have an M1913 rail. The standard USP DAO pull weight exceeds the requirement but a lighter DAO trigger module is available.

- Glock 17 seems again to meet every requirement, but I don't think the Glock accessory rail is M1913 compliant, and on top of that, you need to pull the trigger to disassemble, so that's a no-go. Unless Glock made a special version that doesn't require a trigger pull to disassemble, I can't see them winning. Glock has made offshoot variants in the past, including models with a manual safety, so who knows?

- Springfield XD 9 - I thought this pistol wasn't in service with any NATO countries, but Croatia has been a member since 2009 (thanks CDN Aviator). On the face of it, again, the XD9 seems to meet all paper specs, except that you need to pull the trigger to disassemble, and it has a grip safety (although I'm not sure if that would disqualify it, since the safety is disengaged automatically).

- S&W M&P 9 - seems to meet every single requirement... except that no NATO countries use it. I think out of all the pistols, the M&P would be the likeliest choice. I've heard that the RCMP will be switching to the M&P as well, which would sweeten the pot from a cost standpoint perhaps. I know DND and the RCMP are two separate entities, but still...


That's my take on it. I'd be interested to hear if I missed any pistols. I didn't choose the Beretta M9 because it is over weight and the DAO trigger is 12lbs. The CZ-75s are all well over-weight, which is why I didn't pick them

 

[aesop081]

but Croatia has been a member since 2004.

Small unrelated note but Croatia did not become a NATO member until 2009 (it received it's invitation to join in 2008 at the Bucharest summit). Croatia had been a PfP (partnership for peace) country since 2000.

[/sidetrack]

 

[PJOsborne]

My mistake, thanks

 

[brihard]

- H&K USP seems to be the most likely choice, since it meets every single requirement. USPs, however, do not have an M1913 rail.

For a national level military procurement, that would seem like a very, very easy thing for them to fix for a bid.

 

[Good2Golf]

USP is very nice. Hope it gets a fair shake. P9S was very nice when it came out in the late-60's, and the USP was a very nice development.

Regards,
G2G

 

[PJOsborne]

For a national level military procurement, that would seem like a very, very easy thing for them to fix for a bid.

I agree, since all H&K would need to do is change their molds for the frames to incorporate an M1913 rail instead of their proprietary version. Their P2000 and P30s both come with M1913 rails, after all.

It seems to me that 10,000 pistols isn't a very large number, especially when compared to other nations. For example, the US Army just bought 100,000 Beretta M9s, saying that the M9 will remain their sidearm "for the next five years"
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/09/17/army-buys-100000-m9-pistols/

Seems like we're a fairly small order. I'm sure any company would love to sell 10,000 pistols, but when you factor in the bizarre requirement to license the design to Colt Canada, it's no wonder that potential bidders objected to that stipulation for such a small order.

 

[Jarnhamar]

USP is very nice. Hope it gets a fair shake. P9S was very nice when it came out in the late-60's, and the USP was a very nice development.

Regards,
G2G

I was shooting one this weekend- it was amazing.  I'm going to pick one up as soon as funding allows.

 

[blacktriangle]

Anyone here shot an M&P 9mm? If so, any idea how that shoots in comparison to a Glock?

 

[MeatheadMick]

I may be a little bias... but I'm still hoping Sig Sauer is the pick.. The 226 is just too sweet of a hand-gun to pass up.

 

[JorgSlice]

I may be a little bias... but I'm still hoping Sig Sauer is the pick.. The 226 is just too sweet of a hand-gun to pass up.

I'd have to agree myself. While I have not been in a service position that requires a hand gun, I did purchase one as a first when my PAL came in the mail along with an S-W M&P 9mm, and after shooting both at the range, I've neglected my M&P for the past 3 months 

It's beautiful

 

[Redeye]

Anyone here shot an M&P 9mm? If so, any idea how that shoots in comparison to a Glock?

I found the M&P, even with various palmswell options didn't fit my hand quite as naturally, but it groups almost as well. Trigger pull is not quite as smooth but still quite good.

 

[PJOsborne]

Anyone here shot an M&P 9mm? If so, any idea how that shoots in comparison to a Glock?

My Civvie job is as an RSO for a rental shooting range. Our Glocks and M&P get quite a bit of range time, and I'd say they're roughly matched for reliability. They both have issues with small parts breakage, at least in my experience. The M&P9 that we have has had its slide stops replaced at least 4 times now, because they just break off. I'm not even sure why they do; we teach our customers to rack the slide instead of using the slide stop lever.

We have Glock 17s and 34s, both Gen 3 and 4. I'd say they're evenly matched for reliability. Occasionally we'll see broken extractor claws or a broken frame rail. Glocks can shoot for quite a while with only 3 of 4 rails, apparently

Accuracy is about even for both guns, if the shooter does his part. I like the trigger on the Glock better than the M&P, but that's just my personal opinion. As far as the grips go, that's also a matter of personal preference and 'feel'. I'm not crazy about the Glock's grip, but I have big hands and I don't mind it. The M&P doesn't feel comfortable for me unless I put the 'Large' palmswells on the grip, but I find it bulges out quite a bit, and it doesnt feel as natural to me.

Either way, our guns get used a lot. I'd say on average these guns see about 50-200 rounds a day, depending on how busy we get. They get cleaned twice a week, on average, and they only get repairs or maintenance if something breaks, which isn't often. Either one is a good choice, IMO.