Replacement of Browning HP, Sig Sauer 225 begins

[MeatheadMick]

Sig's (not Sings) are much better than second class... Just remember the standard issue firearm for the US Army is a 92F, and only because it was cheaper than the Sig P226, which has been quite famously linked to DEVGRU (Navy SEALS)

 

[JorgSlice]

Funny, I had the same attitude towards certain vegetables when I was six...

:rofl:

Is there a way to extract beer from keyboards?  ;D

 

[Redeye]

LOOOL, I've seen enough of those knock off 1911's :') Sings are okay I guess. Is it weird that despite the amount they're praised, I hate Glocks? I've never even fired one and I hate them.

It's not weird. We've already figured out that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, so we've no reason to worry about this opinion either.

 

[Pte. Jay]

No idea what I'm talking about? That's sort of rude... The 92FS is just a personal favourite so i , that's ME, wouldn't mind if the military picked some up. And yes, its SIG, I misspelled it :3

 

[Fishbone Jones]

No idea what I'm talking about? That's sort of rude... The 92FS is just a personal favourite so i , that's ME, wouldn't mind if the military picked some up. And yes, its SIG, I misspelled it :3

What's rude is some noob breaking in on a conversation, held by people that have BTDT. People that have used those tools on a daily basis. People that know what they are talking about.

Not someone that can only make a general statement on his uncle's gun that he's held a few times. Liking the 92 because you've got a few rounds at some cans and calling the rest second rate, before having truly worked them, is amateurish and the type of comment that doesn't belong here.

Here, and now in the AK-47 thread, your inexperience and youthful enthusiasm is showing. It's starting to turn a number of members against you in your first ten posts.

Back off and do some reading here, learn a bit and gain some experience. It's OK not to know everything

Otherwise, you might end up leaving soon with a bad taste for your time here.

 

[Pte. Jay]

What's rude is some noob breaking in on a conversation, held by people that have BTDT. People that have used those tools on a daily basis. People that know what they are talking about.

Not someone that can only make a general statement on his uncle's gun that he's held a few times. Liking the 92 because you've got a few rounds at some cans and calling the rest second rate, before having truly worked them, is amateurish and the type of comment that doesn't belong here.

Here, and now in the AK-47 thread, your inexperience and youthful enthusiasm is showing. It's starting to turn a number of members against you in your first ten posts.

Back off and do some reading here, learn a bit and gain some experience. It's OK not to know everything

Otherwise, you might end up leaving soon with a bad taste for your time here.

See, this is good. I AM a noob to these forums. I've been here reading a while (a year about) but I've just recently started posting... if there's something I'm doing wrong, tell me and it won't happen again

 

[Scott]

No need for others to do so, the PM has been sent.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Puckchaser -- I'm sorry but I call BS on that.

CANSOF has (or had) instructor cadre that can be called upon to conduct training.  However the biggest issue that one tends to see if either the unit refusing to budget - or refusing to accept that the internal personnel they have are not capable of instructing something - or not knowing what they don't know.

I tell people that I can shoot pistol despite my army training, it was the blind leading the blind.

 

[PJOsborne]

My army training regarding the pistol has been very brief and generally stodgy 'by the pam' type of instruction. Granted, the instructors who taught the BHP to me were probably going through the same motions that they received when they got taught on it too. I hope that when the GSP is finally selected, someone goes through the trouble of rewriting the pam and adding new techniques to reflect the advances in pistol shooting that have occurred since the BHP pam was last written (things like a proper grip, stance, new IA drills etc). Ideally, the instructor would be someone who is actually switched on and a bit of a SME, but that's not always possible.

Earlier there was some discussion about the barrel length specification - keep in mind that the GSP requirement is for a minimum barrel length of 102mm. I think that ties into their criteria for the pistol to be "full length" (as opposed to compact or sub-compact). I'm still scratching my head as to which pistol could fit the bill.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Fully agree, I would choose a compact polymer pistol like the G19, mainly as it saves weight and space on a already overcrowded body and reduces weight , even if it's a few ounces

Source wiki, unloaded
G19 unloaded is 21 ounces
226 is 34 ounces
BHP is 31.74 ounces
M9 is 36.3 ounces

 

[KevinB]

Colin, years ago I had to suffer thru the PSWQ, as I had all the courses, but Eryx ( :facepalm: yeah I had to take a course for a 2 day Eryx class).  The Sgt who was teaching the pistol part was a buddy of mine for years - he was a student too (another Eryx victim) but he did not know the pistol if it ran him down, he lost a page of IA's and I had to explain it to him that he was missing some, this became a 35min lecture by me on how the pistol functions etc.
  Fortunately our section were all relatively older folks all stuck in the Eryx vacuum - and no one got bent out of shape that I ended up doing the pistol.  Having a ISCC, Small Arms Course etc does not immediately confer SME status on anything, and its not a slight on anyone to note they do not have the tools to teach something fully.


Patrick0  - barrel length and other physical characteristics always worry me - a better comment would be the Muzzle Velocity of the 9mm ball cartridge needs to be X when fired from the GSP, and the accuracy of the weapon must be Y when fired at x range (which I would recommend testing from a rest). 
  Writing requirement documents must write to a requirement/specification, and its always better to have a performance spec as opposed to a rather arbitrary paper spec.



My first personal handgun circa 1989 was a Beretta 92-FS, it was the first one I sold...
I've been issued BHP's, Sigs, Glocks, and even a M9.  I've also carried a 1911 for work (we shall call it 'self issue'  ) - also a 9mmMak and a few Pen guns (always fun on the BRR  ;D )
Personally I've owned a plethora of handguns - I've yet to find the perfect gun, but my current gun is a M&P45


MPRick - Dev does not use the 226, the vanilla SEAL's do.  Dev uses the Hk45C

 

[MeatheadMick]

MPRick - Dev does not use the 226, the vanilla SEAL's do.  Dev uses the Hk45C

Fair enough, I was under the impression ST6 was renamed DEVGRU, and it's common knowledge the SEALs use the P226... sorry for blanketing them in the same light, as a Canuck, I'm not super familiar with the workings of the DOD. Cheers.

 

[JorgSlice]

Fully agree, I would choose a compact polymer pistol like the G19, mainly as it saves weight and space on a already overcrowded body and reduces weight , even if it's a few ounces

Source wiki, unloaded
G19 unloaded is 21 ounces
226 is 34 ounces
BHP is 31.74 ounces
M9 is 36.3 ounces

I can't speak for having to carry a service pistol in an operational standpoint (yet... got a fancy new semi-civy-side job), but I'm sure the reduced weight is a godsend at the end of the day, however I much prefer a pistol that has some weight to it like the 226 vice the G18(C)/19(C). It makes me feel I have a little more control and confidence in my firearm (although it should be confidence in myself rather than the pistol).

Alberta Sheriffs issue the Glock 20 10mm Auto so I have no other choice but to suck it up and get used to a Glock 

 

[MeatheadMick]

I can't speak for having to carry a service pistol in an operational standpoint (yet... got a fancy new semi-civy-side job), but I'm sure the reduced weight is a godsend at the end of the day, however I much prefer a pistol that has some weight to it like the 226 vice the G18(C)/19(C). It makes me feel I have a little more control and confidence in my firearm (although it should be confidence in myself rather than the pistol).

Alberta Sheriffs issue the Glock 20 10mm Auto so I have no other choice but to suck it up and get used to a Glock 

Grats on getting a job with the Sheriffs!  Both EPS and CPS use Glock models too. It's a very popular firearm for policing. I'm not personally a fan of the Glock, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the way it shoots. If I had to carry a Glock, I would not have a problem with it. My preference is still Sig though, and very happy to carry one as a meathead.

 

[JorgSlice]

Grats on getting a job with the Sheriffs!  Both EPS and CPS use Glock models too. It's a very popular firearm for policing. I'm not personally a fan of the Glock, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the way it shoots. If I had to carry a Glock, I would not have a problem with it. My preference is still Sig though, and very happy to carry one as a meathead.

As is mine, but alas, I may grow to like it

 

[PJOsborne]

Colin, years ago I had to suffer thru the PSWQ, as I had all the courses, but Eryx ( :facepalm: yeah I had to take a course for a 2 day Eryx class).  The Sgt who was teaching the pistol part was a buddy of mine for years - he was a student too (another Eryx victim) but he did not know the pistol if it ran him down, he lost a page of IA's and I had to explain it to him that he was missing some, this became a 35min lecture by me on how the pistol functions etc.
  Fortunately our section were all relatively older folks all stuck in the Eryx vacuum - and no one got bent out of shape that I ended up doing the pistol.  Having a ISCC, Small Arms Course etc does not immediately confer SME status on anything, and its not a slight on anyone to note they do not have the tools to teach something fully.


Patrick0  - barrel length and other physical characteristics always worry me - a better comment would be the Muzzle Velocity of the 9mm ball cartridge needs to be X when fired from the GSP, and the accuracy of the weapon must be Y when fired at x range (which I would recommend testing from a rest). 
  Writing requirement documents must write to a requirement/specification, and its always better to have a performance spec as opposed to a rather arbitrary paper spec.



My first personal handgun circa 1989 was a Beretta 92-FS, it was the first one I sold...
I've been issued BHP's, Sigs, Glocks, and even a M9.  I've also carried a 1911 for work (we shall call it 'self issue'  ) - also a 9mmMak and a few Pen guns (always fun on the BRR  ;D )
Personally I've owned a plethora of handguns - I've yet to find the perfect gun, but my current gun is a M&P45


MPRick - Dev does not use the 226, the vanilla SEAL's do.  Dev uses the Hk45C

Kevin, you make a good point regarding performance vs paper specs. My gut tells me that they're trying to shoehorn a certain pistol, or at the very least exclude a number of other pistols by demanding a certain minimum barrel length. I wonder when they're going to re-issue their updated request for proposal for the GSP and ranger rifle.

 

[Redeye]

Kevin, you make a good point regarding performance vs paper specs. My gut tells me that they're trying to shoehorn a certain pistol, or at the very least exclude a number of other pistols by demanding a certain minimum barrel length. I wonder when they're going to re-issue their updated request for proposal for the GSP and ranger rifle.

The minimum barrel length only really excludes compact pistols like the G19. Most NATO standard pistols have at least a 4" barrel.

 

[KevinB]

The minimum barrel length only really excludes compact pistols like the G19. Most NATO standard pistols have at least a 4" barrel.

And the Sig P2022...

My point is the barrel length issue is utterly stupid - it should be a performance spec. 

This same issue came up years ago with the IOR buy of the AR10T's - the CF demanded a 24" barrel - when the M110, Mk11's etc where 20" and there was no rationale for the 24" other than because.  KAC would not submit a 24" gun, as years ago after Somalia they had been forced to replace the 24" barrels with 20" barrels by the initial user group.

 

[Jarnhamar]

It's a shame the CF is still stuck on stupid criteria which is are an obvious attempt to exclude certain pistols from the onset.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Alberta Sheriffs issue the Glock 20 10mm Auto so I have no other choice but to suck it up and get used to a Glock 

Seriously a 10mm? man what are they escorting grizzly bears? 

a long slide 10mm glock would be my choice for a sidearm in bear country, but it's a lot of gun for everyday carry and quite beamy in the grip.