Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[Haggis]

So weapons worn at a Khalsa Day parade good, though against the rules (The Canadian Armed Forces Manual of Drill and Ceremonial), according to army spokeswoman Karla Gimby.

The CAF Manual of Drill and Ceremonial doesn't speak to when soldiers will/will not parade under arms so this spokesperson is wrong.

 

[OldSolduer]

The path to hell -- a non-denomination hell of course -- is paved with good intentions. 

I wouldn't be surprised if he saw this edict as a logical follow-on from the uproar (and presumed slapping from the Div Comd) that followed his approving troops in CADPAT with C7s participating in Brampton's Sikh Khalsa (Vaisakhi) parade.
    :dunno:

You may be right.

 

[daftandbarmy]

There are no atheists in foxholes.

This just proves how far away he is/ we all are from a foxhole these days

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Sigh. 

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/christie-blatchford-god-forbid-canadian-soldiers-go-anywhere-near-a-church?fbclid=IwAR0uA6sgzQ8_BM011T4EeBQ6NGg6Phfbf94BGtDtUTLsDyUX-Kv9_2P_OxY

Yup. I've heard more complaints/disappointment from members with varying time-in where I'm posted (including atheists, muslims and JWs) than support for this. The sentiment is that they were welcoming of it and had no qualms with entering a church not reflective of their beliefs.

I get that areas such as metropolitan TO have a much higher concentration of diversity with respect to practicing religions, ethnicity, etc. and perhaps there's been mumblings. But I honestly doubt they've been so substantial as to warrant a blanket directive upheaving a long-time tradition.

I respect a building for the purpose it serves to others. I, in no way, feel obliged to, for example, go to confessional because I walked into a catholic church. I think it's safe to say the same goes for the majority of others.

Aren't we a Christian nation?...

Abdullah

Well, not exactly. Canada, as a whole, doesn't outwardly identify as a "Christian" nation anymore. While the percentage of persons still practising the Christian faith (in all its forms/denominations) is still substantial, we've gotten away from referring to ourselves as having that foundation, as the concentration of some other organized religions has greatly increased over the last 20-30yrs.

 

[Remius]

Our regimental chapel is not the same denomination I practice (or don't depending on how you look at it).  It's about the military service, the history and respect for its place in that history.

You would think that the CO of 32 CBG would have better things to do...

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The path to hell -- a non-denomination hell of course -- is paved with good intentions. 

I wouldn't be surprised if he saw this edict as a logical follow-on from the uproar (and presumed slapping from the Div Comd) that followed his approving troops in CADPAT with C7s participating in Brampton's Sikh Khalsa (Vaisakhi) parade.
    :dunno:

I find this all funny because the problem with the Khalsa parade was never that Sikh soldiers were turned out; rather, it was how they were turned out that was the issue.

 

[a_majoor]

The two key takeaway quotes:

But most of all, in such small incremental strikes, does Canadian history and tradition lose strength.

and

Stepaniuk appears to believe there is malevolence there. He also appears to believe that the core business of the Canadian Army is diversity, not training soldiers for war. What a disservice he does to those he leads.

I'm glad that I'm not in 32 Bde, and that my time in the CAF is winding down so I no longer have to put up with or be associated with this sort of social engineering. The armed forces was one of the few places left where "output" was still more important than "process", but that is rapidly going by the wayside as well.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Will he also bar his soldiers from taking part in First Nation religious ceremony as part of their official duties?

The problem here is that it is a parade...and hence mandatory. 

If the Unit Church Parade was at a mosque, would that change the view of posters here?  Is it okay to order Christians, Hindus, Aboriginal Peoples, Zoroastrians, atheists and agnostics to attend a an Islamic service - or even to entry an Islamic place of worship? Assuming that all the posters here would in fact be in favour of a Mosque parade, would people be okay with removing shoes on entering?  Because we remove our headdress on entering a church in accordance with norms of Christianity.

Mandatory attendance, especially in uniform, at any religious service is, in my opinion, inappropriate.  I'm not even sure I am okay with voluntary attendance in uniform, because despite what another poster has stated, Canada is not "a Christian Country" - it is a country with many Christians in it, and a long history of established Christianity in its communities.  It has just as long a tradition of secularism, and is considered to be a secular state.

So, if it was my call, I would not hold a Church Parade for any soldiers under my command.

 

[Remius]

The problem here is that it is a parade...and hence mandatory. 

If the Unit Church Parade was at a mosque, would that change the view of posters here?  Is it okay to order Christians, Hindus, Aboriginal Peoples, Zoroastrians, atheists and agnostics to attend a an Islamic service - or even to entry an Islamic place of worship? Assuming that all the posters here would in fact be in favour of a Mosque parade, would people be okay with removing shoes on entering?  Because we remove our headdress on entering a church in accordance with norms of Christianity.

Mandatory attendance, especially in uniform, at any religious service is, in my opinion, inappropriate.  I'm not even sure I am okay with voluntary attendance in uniform, because despite what another poster has stated, Canada is not "a Christian Country" - it is a country with many Christians in it, and a long history of established Christianity in its communities.  It has just as long a tradition of secularism, and is considered to be a secular state.

So, if it was my call, I would not hold a Church Parade for any soldiers under my command.

What about funeral tasks with religious flavours to them? 

I've never been ordered to go to a church parade.  I have been ordered to be part of a guard or a pall bearer at a funeral.

The message this commander is conveying is that church parade is somehow wrong.  If that is wrong then so is every other religious accommodation and observance we have in the CAF.  That isn't something I support.  Accommodating others does not have to mean not accommodating the majority.

if we have such a long standing tradition of being secular then why are we so welcoming and accommodating people of various faiths? We either go all in or we don't.  This sort of schizo way of dealing with religion in the CAF sends all sorts of confusing messages.

Christie B hit the nail on the head.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

...

This is an example of a something that has significant weight and repercussions to it. How do you explain this action to the entire country? Canadians in different locations will be/are well aware of what's taking place in areas other than 32 CBG wrt military presence and participation at different venues--And here's one BG basically doing what they want as they see fit. Whether I personally agree with it or not is irrelevant. But as far as I'm concerned, this is a direction that should be either CAF-wide or not.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The problem here is that it is a parade...and hence mandatory. 

If the Unit Church Parade was at a mosque, would that change the view of posters here?  Is it okay to order Christians, Hindus, Aboriginal Peoples, Zoroastrians, atheists and agnostics to attend a an Islamic service - or even to entry an Islamic place of worship? Assuming that all the posters here would in fact be in favour of a Mosque parade, would people be okay with removing shoes on entering?  Because we remove our headdress on entering a church in accordance with norms of Christianity.

Mandatory attendance, especially in uniform, at any religious service is, in my opinion, inappropriate.  I'm not even sure I am okay with voluntary attendance in uniform, because despite what another poster has stated, Canada is not "a Christian Country" - it is a country with many Christians in it, and a long history of established Christianity in its communities.  It has just as long a tradition of secularism, and is considered to be a secular state.

So, if it was my call, I would not hold a Church Parade for any soldiers under my command.

I think the above is a pretty fair assessment.  I am not a Religious individual myself and believe strongly that the CAF should be 100% secular.  I guess one of the issues is some of these Reserve Units have long standing associations with these Churches and not going there is a break in tradition and if there is one organization other than the RCN that cares about tradition, it is the Militia. 

I would much rather a Reserve Unit organize its own secular service and invite everyone to it but then again, they would actually have to plan/take ownership of something and that might be too hard for some  :nod:

The Honorary Colonel/Captain piece is an entirely different matter.  Honorary Colonels/Captains should have deep pockets as well as be politically connected.  I think the Military at present does a terrible job reaching out to actual business people with solid pedigrees and leveraging their connections.  Many have relatives who served in the CAF/Wars and would probably be very interested in being an Honorary if they were actually approached.  People like E.P. Taylor seem like a distant memory to the present day Canadian Military Honorary Colonels/Captains.

This is an example of a something that has significant weight and repercussions to it. How do you explain this action to the entire country? Canadians in different locations will be/are well aware of what's taking place in areas other than 32 CBG wrt military presence and participation at different venues--And here's one BG basically doing what they want as they see fit. Whether I personally agree with it or not is irrelevant. But as far as I'm concerned, this is a direction that is either CAF-wide or it isn't.

Another pretty fair assessment, either all do it, or nobody does it seems to be a pretty good policy.

 

[mariomike]

There are no atheists in foxholes.

I remember the "Soldiers who have come under fire often find God " discussion. 

They say, "There are no atheists in foxholes."

I can say with some confidence that "they" are full of shit. Know plenty of troops who were under contact pretty close on a regular basis and are still staunch atheists.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The problem here is that it is a parade...and hence mandatory. 

If the Unit Church Parade was at a mosque, would that change the view of posters here?  Is it okay to order Christians, Hindus, Aboriginal Peoples, Zoroastrians, atheists and agnostics to attend a an Islamic service - or even to entry an Islamic place of worship? Assuming that all the posters here would in fact be in favour of a Mosque parade, would people be okay with removing shoes on entering?  Because we remove our headdress on entering a church in accordance with norms of Christianity.

I see where you're going with that (I think). I'm an atheist. I'm not a fan of the church being so closely associated with the military and parades and ceremonies but I'm desensitized to it.
Would going to a mosque bother me? Yup it definitely would - which is probably pretty hypocritical of me if I'm being honest.

But also being honest , and without trying to go down a rabbit hole too much, I think a church is more tolerant than a mosque when it comes to observing rules. I've seen sikh's wearing turbans and if I remember correctly jewish people wearing kippah's at church and no one made a big deal about it.

Forget about taking shoes off, would a female soldier have to enter a mosque through a side door and cover their head like the 3 female MP's who accompanied the prime minister on his visit to a mosque have to do?

I feel like churches have become pretty open to other religions and atheists alike. I'm not so sure the same can be said for mosques yet. (of course maybe I'm wrong)

I do see your point though and agree. I'd be fine with never stepping foot in a church again.


It makes me wonder whats next on this road.
Should we ban kilts because it's insensitive to make people from different cultures adopt Scottish customs?
Should we ban wearing medals because it makes CAF members without any medals feel inadequate in their DEU's?
Should we ban DEU's themselves because making a CAF member pick between male and female DEU's could cause gender identity stress (or something to that effect?) for members who identify as neither?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

It makes me wonder whats next on this road.
Should we ban kilts because it's insensitive to make people from different cultures adopt Scottish customs?
Should we ban wearing medals because it makes CAF members without any medals feel inadequate in their DEU's?
Should we ban DEU's themselves because making a CAF member pick between male and female DEU's could cause gender identity stress (or something to that effect?) for members who identify as neither?

Sounds like we need to go back to this:

Then we can all look terrible together  ;D

 

[daftandbarmy]

I see where you're going with that (I think). I'm an atheist. I'm not a fan of the church being so closely associated with the military and parades and ceremonies but I'm desensitized to it.
Would going to a mosque bother me? Yup it definitely would - which is probably pretty hypocritical of me if I'm being honest.

But also being honest , and without trying to go down a rabbit hole too much, I think a church is more tolerant than a mosque when it comes to observing rules. I've seen sikh's wearing turbans and if I remember correctly jewish people wearing kippah's at church and no one made a big deal about it.

Forget about taking shoes off, would a female soldier have to enter a mosque through a side door and cover their head like the 3 female MP's who accompanied the prime minister on his visit to a mosque have to do?

I feel like churches have become pretty open to other religions and atheists alike. I'm not so sure the same can be said for mosques yet. (of course maybe I'm wrong)

I do see your point though and agree. I'd be fine with never stepping foot in a church again.


It makes me wonder whats next on this road.
Should we ban kilts because it's insensitive to make people from different cultures adopt Scottish customs?
Should we ban wearing medals because it makes CAF members without any medals feel inadequate in their DEU's?
Should we ban DEU's themselves because making a CAF member pick between male and female DEU's could cause gender identity stress (or something to that effect?) for members who identify as neither?

Church parades? Meh... I could take it or leave it.

Continuing the employment of first class Padres (of multiple faiths) to ‘minister’ to the spiritual - and other mental health and wellness needs of our troops as required?

Absolutely.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The problem here is that it is a parade...and hence mandatory. 

If the Unit Church Parade was at a mosque, would that change the view of posters here?  Is it okay to order Christians, Hindus, Aboriginal Peoples, Zoroastrians, atheists and agnostics to attend a an Islamic service - or even to entry an Islamic place of worship? Assuming that all the posters here would in fact be in favour of a Mosque parade, would people be okay with removing shoes on entering?  Because we remove our headdress on entering a church in accordance with norms of Christianity.

Mandatory attendance, especially in uniform, at any religious service is, in my opinion, inappropriate.  I'm not even sure I am okay with voluntary attendance in uniform, because despite what another poster has stated, Canada is not "a Christian Country" - it is a country with many Christians in it, and a long history of established Christianity in its communities.  It has just as long a tradition of secularism, and is considered to be a secular state.

So, if it was my call, I would not hold a Church Parade for any soldiers under my command.

I agree it should not be mandatory or any form of coercion. As part of my official work in the Public Service I have had to attend FN religious ceremonies and each meeting is started with a prayer, guess what would have happened if I stepped out to avoid that as part of my beliefs? 

 

[daftandbarmy]

I agree it should not be mandatory or any form of coercion. As part of my official work in the Public Service I have had to attend FN religious ceremonies and each meeting is started with a prayer, guess what would have happened if I stepped out to avoid that as part of my beliefs?

Which is why, unlike some people, I remain a big fan of good PS unions who can help mitigate any career damage as a result of these types of personal choices.

 

[YZT580]

Atheism is making a god out of not having a god.  It is still a religious conviction.  So for those who figure that no one should be compelled to attend a religious service great.  Just don't tell those who wish to that they can't.  As for religious parades they fall under the category of tradition: the same tradition history that requires officers to wear swords and requires little bits of rope to be attached to the sleeve and so on.  Tradition is a good thing and having a commanding officer who belittles tradition is bad; particularly when dealing with reserve formations who are often (no always) anchored to a community and cling to the community's ideals.  This commanding officer is demonstrating that he knows absolutely nothing about leadership.  imho

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Which is why, unlike some people, I remain a big fan of good PS unions who can help mitigate any career damage as a result of these types of personal choices.

I would still be labelled a racist and it would have impacted my ability to work with the bands, so I bit my tongue. It's very amusing when the PC crowd are expecting a "traditional FN ceremony" and then the elder gets up and recites the lords prayer, lots of squirming by the PC's much to my delight.  :nod:

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . .  As part of my official work in the Public Service . . .

And that's the difference.  As a public servant, you've had to "conduct business" (even if that business is only representing your government department) with groups while they are incorporating a religious aspect to events.  There are certain circumstances when military members have to "conduct business" at functions that may have a religious component separate from their military function; an example would be a bearer party or honour guard at a funeral.  A church parade is different; the sole purpose is to bring soldiers to a place of worship for the purpose of worship, there is no other separate military requirement for them to be there.

I remember church parades at Cornwallis, if you didn't attend one of the services, you had to remain outside the chapel until the service (and the after-service coffee and cake) was over.  At least at CFOCS Chilliwack, the mandatory attendance (inside or outside the church) was limited to the first Sunday.  Thankfully, that sort of stupidity is passed, or I hope it is as I noted in Ms Blatchford's article that the mandatory attendance at religious services has been prohibited for at least five years according to the Chaplain's Manual.

PPCLI Guy's comments were spot on.