Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[ballz]

Manitoba recently made this decision based on people's freedom of religion.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/09/manitoba-students-can-opt-out-of-remembrance-day-ceremonies

Manitoba students can opt out of Remembrance Day ceremonies

WINNIPEG - Allowing students to opt out of Remembrance Day services is a matter of religious freedom, Premier Greg Selinger says.

The premier said he believes an overwhelming majority of students and families wish to participate in ceremonies that honour and remember Canada's war veterans every year. But he isn't interested in forcing anyone who doesn't want to be there to attend.

"We have religious freedom in Canada and if there's a very specific reason why people, for religious purposes, don't want their children (to attend), that is an option that they have," Selinger said, noting the province has mandated all schools hold Remembrance Day services on or before Nov. 11. "The overwhelming majority of our students will participate now that we require Remembrance Day services to be part of school activities."

Selinger's comments came a day after an official with the St. James-Assiniboia School Division confirmed a couple students had opted out of Remembrance Day ceremonies in recent years. Officials with other Winnipeg-area school divisions said they couldn't recall any cases under their watch, but they'd likely allow any student to opt out if they objected to attending a school service.

Veterans expressed disappointment with that position Thursday. On Friday, federal Immigration Minister Jason Kenney joined them in objecting to the opt-out clause.

"I find it offensive," Kenney tweeted. "They don't opt out of the freedoms secured by our war dead."

Alberta Premier Alison Redford expressed disappointment Friday about a similar decision made by an Edmonton school board.

"It is our duty to respect and to honour everyone who has made that sacrifice," Redford told reporters.

— With files from Joyanne Pursaga

I agreed with the decision, although I was a bit curious why it was being referenced to religion, since to me (and I'm sure you all agree), religion has nothing to do with Remembrance Day. Let's be clear, I'm not a believer of any sort, but I'm not an atheist either.

That said, I understood why it was being referenced to religion after attending today's ceremony at the Oromocto Mall. I, too, was pretty surprised by how much of it was a church service and how little of it was a Remembrance ceremony, and that was echoed by my peers, even those who are some form of Christian. I knew I'd hear a prayer and a reading or something, but like the OP stated, there was a lot more than expected. Religious "overtones" is a bit of an understatement.

Anyway, I wasn't going to say anything especially since New Brunswick seems to be a God-fearing place and all, but since most people are insinuating the OP is just a whiner or a troll, I figured I'd chime in with my unwanted 2 cents ;D

And no, I've never been to a Remembrance Day ceremony before (except school assemblies, they hardly count). I've always taken the day to remember and reflect on my own, in my own way, not that it's anybody's business.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The problem is: we the CF are largely guests at ceremonies organized and run by other organizations.

We do not control the content of those services.  And they can be quite "churchy", depending on who is doing the organizing.

That said- it is not a religious ceremony, per se.

 

[ballz]

The problem is: we the CF are largely guests at ceremonies organized and run by other organizations.

We do not control the content of those services.  And they can be quite "churchy", depending on who is doing the organizing.

That said- it is not a religious ceremony, per se.

Good point, something that's probably not considered by the OP. It wasn't considered by myself. I was expecting the base to organize it's own parade and ceremony but it seems like the town did, and we were, as you suggested, just guests.

 

[George Wallace]

Some discussion of that two years ago.

"Remembrance Day is not a religious event. It's about remembering your predecessors and colleagues. Yes, prayers are said and hymns are sung. That's our tradition, and I hope that that does not change. You don't have to sing or pray along. You can think other thoughts or just "la la la la la" in your head while that's happening, so long as you think about your predecessors and lost colleagues during the two minutes of silence. You do not have to close your eyes or bow your head - I don't - but you have a duty to be there on parade.":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25815/post-990519.html#msg990519

Or has the Legion suddenly become a religious order and the Legion Hall a Church?

 

[turretmonster]

The stupid thing is the items that so upset the OP are requested by the people who actually fought to give him the right to whine about it.  You know, the 80-90 year olds who fought in WW2 and now near the end of their days. It gives them great comfort and they have earned the right to sing the hymns and say the words of prayers of remembrance as they wish at THEIR services.  Yes we are guests, but we in uniform also have a moral obligation to be there. 


TM

:brit poppy:

 

[turretmonster]

"Id rather not complain in public or through my direct chain for fear of career sabotage or duties"

Seriously?  Are you missing just a spine or other body parts as well?

TM

 

[Baloo]

Without getting too worked up into a froth, I think that there is some merit to the discussion of religious ceremony on Remembrance Day.

Most of us have been standing at attention or sitting in pews thinking, "where is the connection?"

I must profess that I am not religious, haven't been in the slightest for many years. A wayward sheep, if you will. I am most definitely aware of the historical and traditional connection that most units have with certain churches or orders, and that is not a negative in and of itself. Certainly, it can apply just as easily to any cenotaph or monument.

I think where the frustration, at least in my eyes, comes from, is to what degree are we reflecting and honouring our fallen brothers and sisters, and when are we simply an assembled mass for Sunday service? To sit, stand, or kneel, for an hour or more, with no more than a passing and fleeting comment aimed at the fallen, before turning to reflections on the teachings of (insert prophet of choice). It misses the point.

I've heard a military chaplain hold an audience captivated for an entire service, extoling the virtues of the sacrifice of our forefathers and comrades, their exploits and how much we dearly owe them. I've also heard a civilian priest spend the same amount of time reading various pieces of scripture, watching troops fall asleep or gaze into the rafters in stunned silence.

This isn't an issue, TO ME, about the inclusion of religion, so much as the fact that, let's face it, many services miss the mark. Maybe its a civilian versus military issue, I don't really know where the answer lies.

Perhaps more of an issue of better co-ordination and discussion with those providing said services.

But to complain about having to attend a Remembrance ceremony? Give your head a shake.

 

[FJAG]

I've read this thread twice now and it seems to me there's been a lot of piling on when perhaps there was a point that deserves debate.

As I read the question I didn't take it as a complaint about a small religious component at a remembrance ceremony but a complaint about a ceremony that was almost wholly religious in nature with very little remembering.

We all take for granted the fact that we live in a nation with a distinct Christian heritage and that as a result we have many military ceremonies where there is a minor religious element (who hasn't heard grace at a mess dinner and stood for the padre's regimental march of "Onward Christian Soldiers"). Many of those functions are compulsory.  I think though that in general we have tended to make those activities that are purely religious - church parade and padre's hour - more optional.

I won't raise the question whether or not we should take all religion out of our military ceremonies now that we have a more diverse population which includes members who, while devoutly religious, are not Christian or members who specifically oppose all religion. Someone else might by I sure don't have the guts.

But what about the issue where a soldier is ordered to go to a ceremony that is primarily in the nature of a religious ceremony of a specific denomination with which the individual does not identify? What's his recourse?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

His recourse, I think, is to politely raise the subject with CoC in exactly those terms- too little remembering occurred in a ceremony mostly overlaid with religion.

Perhaps, it would cause his unit leadership to reflect on he nature of the ceremony in which they participating.

Perhaps slightly tangential to this thread- after having now attended approximately 33 Remembrance Day ceremonies in my life, I am detecting a tendency  of certain organizers to run these things as if it were still 1947.

Would it be too much to expect that, from time to time, we not just use last year's ceremony format, but instead acknowledge that there is a new generation of veterans and maybe, just maybe, speak to them, too, in language they might understand?  That language may be slightly less religious in nature.  I don't  know.  In recent years, the two best ceremonies that I attended were all about the act of remembrance, with some minor religious acts that I thought were still appropriate.

Perhaps the OP phrased his complaint badly- but he might still be on to something.

 

[NavalMoose]

Can nothing in this world just stay the same, maybe for the sake of continuity, or just because that's the way this ceremony is? If your knickers are in a twist about having to listen to a bit of religious speakings while at a ceremony to remember those who had fought and died so you can get said knickers in a knot, maybe wearing a uniform isn't for you.  You are a serviceman are you not and that sometimes means doing a "service" for others that might not be your idea of fun. Nobody held a gun to your head to make you join up and if you can't hold in your whining for an hour or so once a year then God help us all. Sometimes the answer is just "no" and in this case it's "suck it up and move on".

 

[NavalMoose]

What next....an app for the "new generation" so they can attend the ceremony via facebook on their phones?

 

[dimsum]

What next....an app for the "new generation" so they can attend the ceremony via facebook on their phones?

Hold on....you may be on to something. 

 

[Tank Troll]

All this being said I do find the Remembrance Day Parades a bit more religious when they fall on a Sunday than if they fall on a weekday. I asked a Padre about this and he told me some of his peers tend to get more "preachy" on Sunday Ceremonies because they don't normally get to have there regular service because of the timings of the Remembrance Day Ceremonies. So they try to make up for it at the Remembrance Day Parade.

 

[OldSolduer]

Hello, I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, apologies.

Today I forced by my unit to attend A rememberance ceremony, at the ceremony it was heavily religious.
There was five prayers, three readings from bible, multiple God hymns, multiple speach discussing God. About an hour of religious ceremony followed by five minutes of actual remembering. At no Time was I told that this would be so religious and unable to leave. I was wondering if there was a place I could anonymously complain about being forced to attend a religious ceremony.  Id rather not complain in public or through my direct chain for fear of career sabotage or duties. Or with my name protected.

Talk to the release clerk on your wait out the door. Stop your frickin snivelling and whining.

Don't like this....GTFO.

 

[Pat in Halifax]

Jim's comment came in as I was typing but it sort of (a little stronger though!) echoes my sentiment. I am wondering how many realize too that the swearing of the allegiance to the Queen as part of what we do on enrollment should indicate that there will most definitely be religious overtones to all that we do. She is, after all, Head (I believe the correct term is actually "Supreme Governor") of the Church of England.
Take it for what it is-a commemorative event.
Someone earlier pointed out that most Services are now community run and though that is in fact true, who do you think their advisers are on organizing said events. I KNOW I am not the only one on here who has had a hand in doing just that.

 

[Sythen]

What next....an app for the "new generation" so they can attend the ceremony via facebook on their phones?

Because if, as a "new" Veteran, I don't want to sit at a religious ceremony, that must mean I am lazy, against tradition and some sort of yuppie, right? I don't mind religious overtones, but I do mind a religious service. Freedom of Religion is also Freedom FROM religion. The problem with the all or nothing no compromise attitude of "suck it up" is that eventually someone will take it to court, and win. Then we will have soldiers who are legally allowed to skip the ceremony. And though in a perfect world, no one would.. Everyone knows there are lazy troops everywhere who would just say heck with it.. And how long til that catches on and Nov 11 is just some long weekend for Federal Employees to get their drink on?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I guess since this service should be all about you and making sure you're happy, right??

 

[NavalMoose]

Yes, in answer to your rhetorical questions

Because if, as a "new" Veteran, I don't want to sit at a religious ceremony, that must mean I am lazy, against tradition and some sort of yuppie, right

 

[Scott]

I repeat:

Dude's a troll, don't bother.

He hasn't been back and we have seen this crap before.

 

[Sythen]

I guess since this service should be all about you and making sure you're happy, right??

Because comments like this really add to the discussion.  : What happens in 30-40 years when those of my generation, who are not so religious are tired of being told to suck it up, and deal with religion being thrown in our face stop attending Nov 11? The ceremonies will then look a lot like the Legions, right? I will always remember my fallen brothers, but I don't need to sit at a cenotaph where I am made to feel unwelcome as an atheist, to honour their sacrifice.

And NavalMoose, if your opinion of me really mattered, I might be insulted.