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Redcoat dress uniforms

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Matt_Fisher said:
I think that both uniforms have their place.   I think that the DEU's shade of 'CF Green' too closely resembles the shade of green used by the US Army.   I'd like to see a return to the green/khaki/brown shade used in the previous service dress.

Actually, IIRC it's called "Rifle Green" and supposedly reproduces the very dark green uniforms worn by the Rifle Brigade, so in that sense it has a strong link to our British military heritage. However, I agree with you that a return to a more "brown" shade would look good. I loved the look of the tan DEUs but they were an absolute bugger to keep clean after a few minutes of wear, and in our Regt we found that they got badly stained by the WO/NCO sashes or officers' sword sashes if it was a particularly sweaty or rainy parade. Cheers.
 
pbi said:
Actually, IIRC it's called "Rifle Green" and supposedly reproduces the very dark green uniforms worn by the Rifle Brigade, so in that sense it has a strong link to our British military heritage. However, I agree with you that a return to a more "brown" shade would look good. I loved the look of the tan DEUs but they were an absolute bugger to keep clean after a few minutes of wear, and in our Regt we found that they got badly stained by the WO/NCO sashes or officers' sword sashes if it was a particularly sweaty or rainy parade. Cheers.

Rifle Green is correct, as is CF Green.  I don't know what "the book" says, but both terms are in common usage and I've seen both used on clothing tags or in regulations.  The CF Sweater, in particular, was called "rifle green."

I loved the tans, also - the short sleeve work (garrison) dress shirts were great and looked good when worn with the kilt in shirt sleeve order.  (The pants were horrible, especially on females, or anyone of either gender whose BMI was greater than that of an average undernourished 12 year old).  Jackets were sharp also, and looked "military".  I'd support a lighter colour of olive, brown or green for the DEU jacket, but there is no real reason to do so.  That rifle/CF green has been the standard for 30 years now.  The dark green jacket IS a bit much in the summer; a lighter colour for year round wear would be good, plus it would set us a bit further apart from the Navy; I realize they have cloth badges and a double breasted jacket, but their black coats look very much like CF Green.
 
Weren't they supposed to come put with a lighter version of the land DEU...sorta like the air force light weight and heavy weight ??
 
In my opinion, the ideal format would be as follows:

1) cadpat for the pointy stuff and low visibility/mundane garrison operations.

2) some version of DEU for more "businesslike" or visible things such as media/public relations, meeting with industry and government people, recruiting centres, and the like.

3) a patrol type dress that can serve as both ceremonial AND mess kit.

My personal preference would be to have a CF standard for the (3) stuff. It could be red or black or green, or blue, or whatever, so long as it works both on parade and in the mess. Looking at Infanteer's USMC link, it can be seen that evening dress (which looks awesome IMO) isn't all that far off in basic style from the dress blues. Wouldn't be hard to make something that fills both roles. One example that I've seen is the BCR's get up. A Sgt (can't recall his name) working a mess dinner I was at was wearing the gear sported by the three on the BCR website, and it looked right at home in the mess (not sure if the BCRs actually use this for mess dinners, just saying it fit the occasion).

Now I know all the people who have cried out about loss of heritage etc thus far are going to jump all over me. The thought I have, however, is that if a regiment can't remember it's own history without dressing a certain way then the clothes aren't where the problem lies. If something is deemed a truly important item that just has to be shown on parade once in a while, then there is a perfect place for it: the colour party (and/or band).

If a CF standard was in existence, the ceremonial/formal kit could be issued to all. Our regiments being the way they are though, they would likely insist upon unique styles, so that wouldn't happen (not going to get started on that just now). Therefore, the "have" regiments that want to blow cash on pimping out their troops for parades could provide the kit for their people, while for other regiments it could be personal expense as mess kit is now.

Honestly though, in the end, we're really just talking about clothes here people. The world will continue to spin, recruits will continue to learn the history of their new regiment, and the army will keep training and deploying whether they wear plate mail or pink pj's on parade. Lighten up, it's not like DND is going to mess with the ceremonial gear anyway... I think it has something to do with fixing things that could get people killed before worrying about making Pte(R) XXXXX look so sexy in his reds that the civie in formal wear on the other side of the hottie doesn't stand a chance. ::)
 
Oh yes, to chime in on DEU colour as well, I have no problem with the dark green. It's the sickly light green shirts I have an issue with. That colour is vile :blotto:
 
Michael Dorosh said:
Bullshit.

Check out the Canadian Pattern service dress we adopted before World War One.   The first contingent wore it proudly in 1914-15, and for as long as they could get away with it.   Stand up collar vice stand-and-fall (and even when we got British jackets in 1916, many Canadians secured the collar closed to look "Canadian" with hooks and eyes), seven button front instead of five, and detachable coloured shoulder straps which indicated arm of service (the British had nothing like that at all).   We wore breeches for dismounted troops instead of trousers; those too were replaced with British pants, but it wasn't until late 1915 or even into 1916 - and proud Canadians hung on to their initial issue in some cases.

Check out both my books on Second World War uniforms and compare Canadian Battledress from 1939-1945 to British.   After the war it was even more different and by the 1950s, wasn't even close.   The only time we wore "British" uniforms as a matter of course were IN THE FIELD in WW I, and in Italy in WW II.    We designed our own Service Dress in WW II for Other Ranks.   By Korea, all our field uniforms were different (bush dress, battledress) and in the 1960s we got the Combat Uniform which was even farther from the British.

Canadians INSISTED that uniforms be of Canadian pattern and manufacture in WW II; one of the items that were of "continuing Canadian supply".  

Saying that we've always worn "British" uniforms is simply advertising how uninformed you are.

We also used CANADIAN weapons in WW I - the Ross rifle, until 1916 when it was finally replaced by the Lee Enfield.   We also used US Colt machine guns until replaced by the Lewis, and some of our officers had Colt .45 automatics purchased by the government from the US.

In WW II, 60% of all Bren Guns were made by Inglis in Canada; we made our own Lee Enfields and Stens (Long Branch and others).   By the 1960s we were using Belgian weapons.   Now we use "American" weapons, but if they are made in Canada does it still count as 'American'?

"British" uniforms were a minority in the Canadian Army, and after 1941, we didn't maintain a single British pattern of any of our uniforms with the exception of ceremonial (including mess and patrol dress) and for a brief time in Italy, combat dress (KD - though we had our own Canadian pattern that was different too).   Bush dress, battle dress, combats, DEU, work dress, garrison dress, everything else since 1948 was Canadian pattern.

Canada became a country in 1867. Before that we wore British Uniforms. From 1867 to 1914, we wore British Uniforms. Our weapons from 1800 to the 1950's were British designed. Just becuase we manufactured all our weapons here, dosnt mean they are "canadian." To simply forget these crucial years in Canadian military history is ingorance.

The Ross rifle was a shambles, dont bother mentioning it.
The British also used american weapons (Tommy gun, Browning .50, hand guns, ect.)

Even though we had our own patterns post WW1, they were very similar to British design. The importance is, our dress uniforms distinguish ourselves from those south of the border. I remember one old veteran (served in Korea, PPCLI) told me the DEU's look too american, and he would like to see an increase of Canadian soldiers wearing ceremonial dress, seeing how impressive they look.

Im not asking that every soldier be issued one, nor expected to pay for his own, but to encourage regiments to fundraise for them, maby supply a platoon instead of a company with them (reserves.)

  I remember what inspired me most about the British and Canadian dress uniforms was the history and culture in them. I would wear one proudly, and pay 100% for it.







 
For a while before reading this thread, I would have lumped myself in with those who opt for a 2 uniform army (& a 1 uniform navy, but I'll save that for one of my threads about the naval uniform).  After reading this, I am a little more cautious in saying we ought to radically change the uniforms.  Nonetheless, here's my suggestion for a 2-uniform army:

I understand the need for a separate ceremonial & everyday (but not combat) uniform.  Civvies have morning dress to suit the occasions of weddings or other daytime ceremonies where the military has dress uniforms.  However, there is also the (sad) fact that most civilians do not even know what a morning suit is and wear the most abominable combinations of evening dress clothes to daytime events (weddings, mostly).  The lounge suit has, I can safely say, taken over as the dress & everyday clothing for male civilians (not employed in clothes-dirtying labour work).  

I find we have a choice in the CF: to make the DEU (equivalent to lounge suit) the dress & everyday uniform; to make some new uniform which is both dress & everyday; or to say 'screw it, we're conservative' & keep an daytime dress uniform in addition to a DEU everyday uniform.

I opt for choice #2: a new dress/everyday uniform.  My reasoning is as follows: firstly, I find that the 'shirt & tie necessary' argument is rather faulty.  I indeed like shirts & ties, but they--at least the tie--are supposed to be a thing of colour & beauty, not some thin, polyester, black or dark green thing hanging drearily around the neck.  These drab issued ties came out in the early part of the 20th century when ties themselves, rather than their colours, were all the rage.  That is no longer so, while ties are still worn they are only as part of a dress code (essentially a lax uniform) or because those who wear them like the style.  They are not, however, worn because they are ties--ties, as such, are not a must have item any longer.  Although the navy & airforce have had ties since thier first uniforms (the navy had some sort of neckcloth, anyway) but the army has not.  At least, that is, not some dull, boring khaki or green tie.  Regimental ties or ascots are fine and show some quality & colour which is absent from the DEU tie.  

Secondly, I opt for a new dress/everyday uniform because of something stemming from a small detail I've noticed about not being able to show my DEU shirt cuffs out of my DEU jacket sleeves.  On this matter, I've been told that the DEU is not quite like civilian business clothes.  This may be seemingly insignificant but it shows that it is simply the collar & tie style popularised in the early 20th century which has remained on the DEU.  That is, that DEU is equated with civilian business clothes is a retro-explanation for what is simply a fashion (collar & tie) which has lasted longer than it did in the civilian world due to rules about how to dress.  Civilian clothes have often followed military clothes in as much as vice versa occurs.  For instance, the lapels & collars of contemporary jackets originate from the high-collar tunics being unbuttoned & rolled down.  While the CF cannot ignore changes in clothing & stubbornly wear scarlets while Canadians move on to wear space age foil suits (as we all know is inevitable), it can choose to deviate from the collar & tie style to something else without, I think, abandoning civilians along the sartorial road.

If we are to adopt some sort of high-collar patrol or scarlet uniform as a dress/everyday uniform, I might remind those who fear the loss of the shirt & tie of the Nehru-collared jacket phenomenon back in the 1960s.  These jackets simply turned up that collar & buttoned up those lapels that had been open since some soldier let them down several hundred years ago.  They were popular with civilians and even made it as dinner suits.  And people even wore collars & ties under them (at least Telly Savales did when playing a James Bond villain).  I would also advocate that, just as one may dress up combats, one may undress the scarlets/patrols (i.e. the new uniform I am proposing) & therefore make them fit in to office work or going to the mess or whatever.  Certainly colouring a soldier's uniform scarlet rather than rifle green doesn't force him to wear gongs, bullion, & a sword all the time.  In that same vein of confort, that scarlets/patrols are (1) unconfortable, & (2) expensive need not be so.

For confort, I see nothing wrong with construction & materiel akin to our DEUs for new scarlets/patrols.  (I understand doeskin is rather unconfortable.)  A lightweight khaki or white version might be considered for the summer (as the navy has our summer whites) as well.

Expense runs, I believe, hand-in-hand with undressing the uniform for everyday work.  Taking away all the gold braid & accoutrements for the new uniform would considerably reduce the cost.  Care must be taken, however, not to make the uniform look bad; rather a few more dollars on gold in the badges than some muddle of DEU & scarlets which is worse-looking than either.  Also, getting rid of many of the orders of CF uniform would somewhat reduce cost, I reckon.

As for deciding what branches get what colour of uniforms: I can't really pass judgement on that.  I think I've gone a bit deep even in making the above suggestion of 2 uniforms after only (looking at my watch here) 6 months in the navy.  Though I thought it was an interesting idea to give patrols (presumably to be equivalent to scarlets & not 'undress') to the support branches.  

Speaking of support branches: I was, upon first becoming really acquainted with the CF, suprised to see the PSOs wearing CADPAT to conduct interviews to which they had requested I wear a coat & tie.  This, I think, would be the most striking example in favour of a civilian business clothing equivalent.  Although after wearing the CADPAT & DEUs, I find that the CADPATs are far more confortable so I can now see why the PSOs don't wear DEUs.

That brings me to a final aside: perhaps what we all ought to be looking at is redesigning the CF uniforms not for looks or tradition or anything so bold but simply for confort.  Is it any surprise that most of the CF walks around in CADPAT or NCD when these are the more confortable uniform compared to the DEUs?  I think more important than the collar-&-tie vs high-collar-tunic debate is whether or not our soldiers & sailors feel good in whatever we're wearing.  Part of that will be about looks, naturally, but we mustn't forget that someone unconfortable in DEU or scarlets will make that uniform look less sharp than one who is confortable in CADPAT.

An addition to respond to the second-last post:  if the CF is to pursue having dress uniforms, it ought to recognise the traditional distinction between day & evening dress.  Hence, mess & ceremonial (i.e. scarlet) dress must remain 2 separate orders.  Essentially this distinction lies in the fact that the mess is not where you do your work & what we now have as ceremonial dress was once for combat & assuredly not formally worn in the mess.  

To clarify my position, I wish for the army to have:

1. a dress uniform, for parades & daytime ceremonies, which, with the dressings (i.e. medals, accoutrements, etc.) removed, becomes;

2. an undress uniform, for everyday wear & situations which presently call for DEU;

3. mess dress, in summer & winter flavours I suppose, which, with the dressings (i.e. medals, accoutrements, etc.) removed, becomes;

4. mess undress for everynight wear & situations which presently call for shipboard mess dress & mess service (because I really wish people still changed for dinner, but that's really only my pet peeve & I write this order of dress simply as a logical one); and

5. field combat clothing, otherwise known as the current CADPAT or whatever variant we come up with in the future.

So, 3 uniforms with 5 variants.  No protracted book of dress instructions really needed with this one.
 
HOLY FUCKBALLS!!!

Queer Eye for The Straight Guy just made-over the Canadian Army....

A)   Will it be in a non-baggy polyester gabardine?

B)   When do I get my riding boots?
 
Sailing Instructor said:
For a while before reading this thread, I would have lumped myself in with those who opt for a 2 uniform army (& a 1 uniform navy, but I'll save that for one of my threads about the naval uniform).  After reading this, I am a little more cautious in saying we ought to radically change the uniforms.  Nonetheless, here's my suggestion for a 2-uniform army:

I understand the need for a separate ceremonial & everyday (but not combat) uniform.  Civvies have morning dress to suit the occasions of weddings or other daytime ceremonies where the military has dress uniforms.  However, there is also the (sad) fact that most civilians do not even know what a morning suit is and wear the most abominable combinations of evening dress clothes to daytime events (weddings, mostly).  The lounge suit has, I can safely say, taken over as the dress & everyday clothing for male civilians (not employed in clothes-dirtying labour work). 

This is all reasonable and a correct reading of the situation in my opinion.

I find we have a choice in the CF: to make the DEU (equivalent to lounge suit) the dress & everyday uniform; to make some new uniform which is both dress & everyday; or to say 'screw it, we're conservative' & keep an daytime dress uniform in addition to a DEU everyday uniform.

I opt for choice #2: a new dress/everyday uniform.

This is reasonable also.

My reasoning is as follows: firstly, I find that the 'shirt & tie necessary' argument is rather faulty.  I indeed like shirts & ties, but they--at least the tie--are supposed to be a thing of colour & beauty, not some thin, polyester, black or dark green thing hanging drearily around the neck.  These drab issued ties came out in the early part of the 20th century when ties themselves, rather than their colours, were all the rage.  That is no longer so, while ties are still worn they are only as part of a dress code (essentially a lax uniform) or because those who wear them like the style.  They are not, however, worn because they are ties--ties, as such, are not a must have item any longer.  Although the navy & airforce have had ties since thier first uniforms (the navy had some sort of neckcloth, anyway) but the army has not.  At least, that is, not some dull, boring khaki or green tie.  Regimental ties or ascots are fine and show some quality & colour which is absent from the DEU tie. 

Regimental ties are not exactly uncommon; ties in which the colours are significant are more historically based, I think, to "school ties" than "regimental ties" but I honestly don't know which came first.

I've rarely worn one to work; most places have "business casual", and I think any new uniform should distinguish between an equivalent to Business (tie worn) and Business Casual.  The current DEU does exactly that, by the addition of a sweater or wearing of shirtsleeves.

Secondly, I opt for a new dress/everyday uniform because of something stemming from a small detail I've noticed about not being able to show my DEU shirt cuffs out of my DEU jacket sleeves.  On this matter, I've been told that the DEU is not quite like civilian business clothes.  This may be seemingly insignificant but it shows that it is simply the collar & tie style popularised in the early 20th century which has remained on the DEU.  That is, that DEU is equated with civilian business clothes is a retro-explanation for what is simply a fashion (collar & tie) which has lasted longer than it did in the civilian world due to rules about how to dress.  Civilian clothes have often followed military clothes in as much as vice versa occurs.  For instance, the lapels & collars of contemporary jackets originate from the high-collar tunics being unbuttoned & rolled down.  While the CF cannot ignore changes in clothing & stubbornly wear scarlets while Canadians move on to wear space age foil suits (as we all know is inevitable), it can choose to deviate from the collar & tie style to something else without, I think, abandoning civilians along the sartorial road.

You may have an improperly fitting DEU; have the sleeves altered?

If we are to adopt some sort of high-collar patrol or scarlet uniform as a dress/everyday uniform, I might remind those who fear the loss of the shirt & tie of the Nehru-collared jacket phenomenon back in the 1960s.  These jackets simply turned up that collar & buttoned up those lapels that had been open since some soldier let them down several hundred years ago.  They were popular with civilians and even made it as dinner suits.  And people even wore collars & ties under them (at least Telly Savales did when playing a James Bond villain).  I would also advocate that, just as one may dress up combats, one may undress the scarlets/patrols (i.e. the new uniform I am proposing) & therefore make them fit in to office work or going to the mess or whatever.  Certainly colouring a soldier's uniform scarlet rather than rifle green doesn't force him to wear gongs, bullion, & a sword all the time.  In that same vein of confort, that scarlets/patrols are (1) unconfortable, & (2) expensive need not be so.

The Other Ranks of the  British Army fought tooth and nail for the "privilege" of wearing a necktie.  See Brian L. Davis or Mike Chappell's works on battledress.  It may seem funny to all those hard core Brit heritage types, but the Other Ranks felt scandalized that they were not permitted to wear a tie.

And I'm quite serious here.  Chappell goes into some detail; at a large gathering of soldiers (sort of like a commander's hour) that took part in WWII, he related how the "official" line on uniforms was that the Army always wore stand up collars to resist sword thrusts at their neck.  The men replied that officers wore collar and tie since before WW I, how was it that they had sword-resistant necks?  The dress regulations were changed in 1943 or 44 for the British Army, and earlier for the Canadian Army.  In Canada, ORs wearing a necktie was not seen as a privilege, and they called the ties "Zombie ties".  Zombies were the undead from science fiction, and a term used in WW II to denote a draftee who refused to volunteer for "General Service" or combat employment.

It is funny that those who champion British heritage and the old standup collar are ignorant of the viewpoint at one time that wearing a necktie - like an officer or civilian - was a jealously fought-for privilege.

For confort, I see nothing wrong with construction & materiel akin to our DEUs for new scarlets/patrols.  (I understand doeskin is rather unconfortable.)  A lightweight khaki or white version might be considered for the summer (as the navy has our summer whites) as well.

Reasonable, but I think unnecessary - let's pick a medium colour and run with it year round.  Shirtsleeves is always an option in summer.

Expense runs, I believe, hand-in-hand with undressing the uniform for everyday work.  Taking away all the gold braid & accoutrements for the new uniform would considerably reduce the cost.  Care must be taken, however, not to make the uniform look bad; rather a few more dollars on gold in the badges than some muddle of DEU & scarlets which is worse-looking than either.  Also, getting rid of many of the orders of CF uniform would somewhat reduce cost, I reckon.

But you're proposing the opposite...

Speaking of support branches: I was, upon first becoming really acquainted with the CF, suprised to see the PSOs wearing CADPAT to conduct interviews to which they had requested I wear a coat & tie.  This, I think, would be the most striking example in favour of a civilian business clothing equivalent.  Although after wearing the CADPAT & DEUs, I find that the CADPATs are far more confortable so I can now see why the PSOs don't wear DEUs.

DEUs aren't necessarily uncomfortable (unless you're wearing the kilt) but take more maintenance than CADPATs - ironing creases, shining boots, etc.  A new patrol dress won't change that.

That brings me to a final aside: perhaps what we all ought to be looking at is redesigning the CF uniforms not for looks or tradition or anything so bold but simply for confort.  Is it any surprise that most of the CF walks around in CADPAT or NCD when these are the more confortable uniform compared to the DEUs?  I think more important than the collar-&-tie vs high-collar-tunic debate is whether or not our soldiers & sailors feel good in whatever we're wearing.  Part of that will be about looks, naturally, but we mustn't forget that someone unconfortable in DEU or scarlets will make that uniform look less sharp than one who is confortable in CADPAT.

Depends on what the uniform is for; if we are still talking about every day, day to day, you are correct, though there is no excuse for unshone shoes or wrinkled uniform.

 
This, full dress and feathers is a silly argument, but I am impressed, perhaps depressed is a better word, by the lack of attention displayed, in this and other threads, to our history â “ especially our military history - and the symbolism which attaches to it.

There are five main 'threads' in the strands of our history: Aboriginal, French, British (as opposed to English), American and Modern/Multicultural.   Each is different in both duration and impact; the aboriginal people were here longest but their (historical or cultural) 'step' was light â “ they left too few records and historians are having difficulty giving it its full and proper 'place' (due, in part to a combination of fragmentary evidence, cultural politics (which is common to all cultures, by the way)and honest, essential academic disagreement).   The modern/multi-cultural thread is shortest but its immediate impact is bright and loud and all pervasive, on everything but the military â “ so far, but, to quote generations of sergeants on thousands of parade squares: â Å“Wait for it!â ?   The French were the major factor in 'modern' Canada for 250 years â “ they explored, settled and farmed but failed to exploit; their gaze was always back, over their shoulders, to France.   For the next 250 years the influences in Canada were British and (Anglo) American, in about equal strength.   They cannot be separated too much â “ they were concurrent influences, one feeding off the other. It is a common, but serious error to try to keep them apart.   Victorian and 20th century Canada was and remains far less 'British' than, say, distant New Zealand â “ the French fact is irrelevant â “ the difference is the friendly, familiar, neighbourly and overwhelming influence of our American cousins.

The important differences for modern Canada between the British and Loyalist North Americans, on the one hand, and the French, on the other, were many and deep but they began with the idea of a new place with new, local institutions â “ tied but not bound to Europe.

Our Canadian military culture owes little to the aboriginals, the French or the modern, multicultural communities: it is, overwhelmingly, British-American, as it has been since the arrival of the Loyalists in the 18th century and, especially, the Scots migrations (forced and voluntary) of the early 19th century.   (Some (I'm not sure of the number â “ more than two or three, less than a dozen, I think) regiments were raised in Scotland for service in India followed by settlement in Canada â “ with a decade of imprisonment and starvation for families until soldiers and family survivors were reunited, on regimental land grants, in Canada.   You can still find the traces in the Eastern Townships of Quebec, the St Lawrence and Ottawa valleys and e.g. Wellington and Dufferin counties in Ontario â “ I spent several weeks perusing parish records in those areas about 40 years ago.)

Military history is not static and military customs and traditions are a reflection of social rather than political history.   Thus, over the 250 years of British-American dominance of Canadian military history, many things have changed.   We have forgotten, or relegated local heroes like de Salaberry and Tecumseh and replaced them with (estimable, to be sure) people more familiar to the dominant, British-American, culture of the day.   At the turn of the 21st century Roméo Dallaire and Lewis MacKenzie have, in their turns, replaced Sir Arthur Currie, Bert Hoffmeister and Cec Merritt in the Canadian military pantheon â “ as happens everywhere, all the time.   Ditto for regiments and the attendant buttons and bows   issues.   (It may be interesting for some to note that many of the customs and traditions, including the 'ceremonial' uniforms worn by some regiments, which are most popular with many Canadians on the fringes of our military, are very 'un-Canadian'.   They date from the Cardwells's much needed reforms of the post-Crimean British Army.   Some of these reforms persisted well into the 20th century and people of my age can remember regular ration stock-takings to ensure that the CO did not end up with a pay deduction at fiscal year end because he had gone too far over his battalion's ration entitlement â “ a holdover from the clean up of the corruption which was rife in the British commissariat system and which led to charges of theft being levelled (but not, often, proved) against several British commanders of 'good' blood.   Others, like Guy Simmonds' 'creation' of a Regiment of Canadian Guards are self-inflicted wounds, a result of our own, sometimes excessive, Anglophilia.)

All that to say that 35 year old 'DEUs' â “ all gussied up with bright gee-gaws to replace the traditional, in 20th century wars, subdued rank badges and simple div patches â “ are no more traditional than high collared, drab wool tunics or bright scarlet ones with different coloured piping and facings.   There is nothing especially Canadian or un-Canadian about our uniforms â “ they look remarkably similar to those worn by the Chinese People's Liberation Army and, indeed, by Idi Amin â “ neither, in my view, making a case for their form, fit and function.

I agree that uniforms reflect the civilian dress of the day, with, almost inevitably, modifications for good, military reasons: most Romans wore a short tunic and so did Roman soldiers, a good wool tunic, augmented by a good wool blanket/cloak, and with a breastplate, helmet, shield and sometimes a leather kilt and woollen or leather trousers, too, and so on.   Ditto the army that took Québec â “ cutaway coats with waistcoats and knee breeches with stockings were the 'norm' for gentlemen and even for common men, for Sunday wear, in the 1760s.   They were issued to, and adapted for soldiers, too. But, big BUT, the fact that soldiers dressed in a manner which was 'normal' for society at large does not, by any stretch of the imagination, translate into a requirement for the soldiers to have a uniform that â ?mimics Business Casual and Business dressâ ? â “ that is a huge red herring.

In the 19th century the British and German armies noted that bright red, white and blue did not aid camouflage and concealment and, first, rifle green jackets with subdued facings and buttons, and, later, khaki and feldgrau (field grey) appeared on the battlefield, thus, irrevocably, separating military from civilian attire.   The khaki battle dress or field service dress was, inevitably, 'dressed up' as Michael Dorosh notes, on his web site â “ especially for British officers.   The utilitarian leather belts and straps, including the famous Sam Browne belt, (worn, on active service, with scarlet tunics, by the RCD and The RCR) became increasing, then wholly decorative.   The visible distinctions between officers, senior NCOs and the rank and file became greater and greater, reinforcing concomitant but outmoded social divisions.   In the '60s and then, again, in the '80s the British Army upgraded soldiers' uniforms to a style and quality which aimed to reduced those distinctions.   The initial Canadian jolly green jumper was designed to remove them entirely â “ polyester and plastic for one and all.   Very soon we saw â “ I think it is now quite common â “ that officers spent their own money to get a better cut or fit and, often, better cloth, too.   Some (many?) naval officers have real (American or British) gold on their sleeves â “ even on the slip-ons they wear on sweaters, etc.   On balance I favoured, and still do, the British approach (better kit for the soldiers) to the Canadian one (lower quality for all}.

It is noted that not all Canadian regiments had ceremonial dress uniforms â “ neither did all British regiments.   Until the late 19th century soldiers in most armies had one 'style' of uniform â “ the one they fought in.   Ditto, on the basis of the photographic evidence on their web site: the Calgary Highlanders in the 1920s and The RCR in the 1950s.   The soldiers' tropical worsted uniform was an attempt to give Canadian soldiers and airmen a summer weight 'walking out' uniform, such as their British colleagues had for tropical service.   In the '50s a form of garrison dress had already evolved: bush pants and dress shirts, sleeves rolled up, in the summer, and bush pants or battle dress trousers, shirt and high-neck sweater in the winter with either a jump smock or a nylon parka (no liner in spring and fall) as outerwear.   Neither full, garrison duty, pressed and gussied up woollen battledress or TWs were popular â “ soldiers wanted to wear something practical, comfortable and easy to care for, while still looking 'smart.'   In the '50s and '60s most Canadian officers wore service dress, highly polished leather Sam Browne and all, when 'on parade' but they, too â “ even the CO and the brigadier - wore the informal garrison dress on normal 'working days.'

That still seems to be the case in Petawawa â “ or it was when members of our regimental association last visited: I don't think I noticed a full (jacket and tie) DEU in wear and I think I would have noticed because it would have stood out.   I did see a few â “ a very few â “ green trousers with open neck shirts and sweaters but mostly I saw CADPAT battle dress, including the CO and the brigade commander.   I observed this, again, when I visited a British base a few years ago â “ I don't think I saw an officer or NCO and certainly not a private, in anything but a disruptive pattern uniform â “ and that included the brigadier in his office.   My impression (and it has been a decade plus since I last set foot on an American base) is that the US is the same.

I see many mixes of dress when I stop by the Army Officers' Mess in Ottawa â “ most of the military bureaucrats wear sweaters/trousers or their CADPAT uniforms; a few (some colonels and most generals) wear a tunic and tie.   If NDHQ is to be the standard then there is a need, there, for something other than battle dress and a ceremonial uniform.   But, really, is what General Howsyourfather is going to wear when he meets a lobbyist for lunch really the 'standard' for issue of uniforms in the entire Canadian Army?

Whatever uniforms we are going to issue to Canadian soldiers â “ and I do not agree that they should buy their own â “ should reflect our unique Canadian military traditions.   For 250 years the predominant Canadian military traditions have been local (North American) adaptations of British customs, traditions, organizations and equipment.   Sometimes â “ e.g. Rangers/Rifles/Light Infantry â “ we, British North Americans, have led the way but mostly we have adapted British ways and means to meet our needs.   We still do â “ to the extent that we retain the ever flexible and ever changing regimental system   Ignoring those traditions is to try to rewrite Canadian history â “ dishonest in the extreme.

This, full dress and feathers, is still a silly argument â “ we have better things to do with scarce dollars but ... as I have mentioned before, morale and pride (self esteem) and self confidence are all mixed together and all can be damaged if there is a sense that soldiers, NCOs and officers are, somehow, less 'worthy' than other Canadians.  

With all possible respect to today's soldiers, traditions matter, too â “ we need to focus our soldiers more on Alexander Dunn, Richard Rowland Thompson, Milton Gregg and Cec Merritt and less on Lester B Pearson and Roméo Dallaire.   The indisputable geopolitical fact is that we had a 40 year 'rest' from large scale combat (a long time in our history) while our armed forces kept the peace, the only peace that really, ever, needed to be kept, through intensive training for war and hair trigger alertness.   The bits of other overseas service we saw â “ so called Pearsonian peacekeeping was nothing more than military busy-work, designed to help preserve the fragile, but peaceful, balance of power.   Keeping the 'real' peace â “ the peace that mattered â “ required tough, superbly disciplined, well trained and adequately equipped troops.

Getting that 'mix' (toughness, discipline, training) right required something I would call, for lack of a better term, an agenda of respect for soldiers and soldiering â “ we had it under St. Laurent, it began to slip, a bit, under Pearson and Diefenbaker, and it collapsed, totally and completely, in 1968 when Trudeau and Head gave practical, political effect to their anti-military views.   I do not believe it, the agenda of respect, ever recovered ... certainly not after 1993.   I remember the debilitating effects of the original jolly green jumper and the universally despised 'work dress' â “ the soft drink deliverymen's uniform.   Soldiers wondered if anyone in Ottawa gave a hoot about them.   So, uniforms can matter ...

There is a lot more to do than fiddle with uniforms, but if those uniforms are not supportive of our most valuable traditions, if polyester and plastic and fierce brigade patches do no good, then they may be part of the problem.

I apologize for the length; I adopt Churchill's defence: I didn't have time to write a short one ... actually I'm just too lazy to revise and edit.

 
Rusty Old Joint said:
This, full dress and feathers is a silly argument, but I am impressed, perhaps depressed is a better word, by the lack of attention displayed, in this and other threads, to our history â “ especially our military history - and the symbolism which attaches to it.

(snips)

I apologize for the length; I adopt Churchill's defence: I didn't have time to write a short one ... actually I'm just too lazy to revise and edit.

I read through that twice and have no idea what point you were trying to make.  Unless the point was simply to avoid all the points I've been trying to make, in which case, well done.

You seem to base the entire Army's uniform needs on what you've seen at Petawawa (a training outpost - I'm sure I've never seen a jacket and tie in Wainwright either), dismissing "NDHQ" as unimportant or representative of the only people in contact with the business world.    We have brigade headquarters throughout Canada, and even at the unit level there are officers and men with contacts in the "real" world, the need for a business type dress is not restricted to the CDS or even all of NDHQ...but I've stated that all before, haven't I.

You also assert that there is nothing "Canadian" about the DEU, and compare it to a Chinese uniform.  That only speaks to the same level of ignorance that canuck25 is displaying; his last post wasn't worth responding to, and I find this latest of yours fits the same category.  On the most basic level, all armies in the world wear the "same" uniform, if your only points of comparison are the fact that they have sleeves, pockets, some method of buttoning up the front, and a collar to put your neck through!  Check out the book DRAB SERGE AND KHAKI DRILL: THE FOREIGN SERVICE, UNIVERSAL SERVICE, BATTLE AND COMBAT DRESS JACKETS OF THE CANADIAN ARMY 1899-2003  by Grant Tyler, published just this year, for an introduction to "Canadian" uniforms.  If you really don't see the evolution from "Line Warrant Officers' Summer Service Dress Jacket, Tropical Worsted ca. 1961, Tan-c" as illustrated on page 132, and the current uniform, there is no point continuing the conversation... That was the reality for Canadians for the last 100 years, not the stand up collars that British soldiers actually lobbied to do away with!

I really have no idea what it is you propose.  Stand up collars and scarlet doublets to replace the DEU?  I thought that was your point a few pages ago, but am now thoroughly confused as to what you are on about. 
 
Here is the passage from Chappell (BRITISH BATTLEDRESS 1937-1961)

  In the last month of 1944 an Army Regulation permitted Other Ranks to wear collars and ties with BD when off duty.  The prohibition of collars and ties to this date - officially, at least (*) - had for a long time been a bone of contention among British soldiers, who resented the denial of a right enjoyed by members of other services.  The civilians in uniform who made up the vast majority of the British Army in wartime saw no good reason why they should be forced to present an old-fashioned and unstylish appearance when walking out; the author well remembers a 'current affairs' talk held in Bradford City's football stadium in October 1943 which degenerated into a heated discussion of this point.  Were British Tommies considered unequal to the 'civilized' task of knotting a tie?  The hard-pressed officer giving the talk was reduced to claiming that the Army had always worn button-up collars as protection against sword-thrusts.  He had no satisfactory answer when asked if officers, who had worn open-collar tunics since early in the century, had sword-resistant throats...

(*) this implies that British soldiers wanted so badly to wear neckties that they did so unofficially

This quote says a lot about the so-called "British traditions" of the stand up collar and the collared shirt and tie.  Those proposing to get rid of the DEU in favour of going back to our "British roots" may find it interesting that those same British soldiers they want to look like viewed the jacket and tie as "civilized" and the act of doing the collar up to the neck as "old-fashioned" and "unstylish."

If not wearing a tie was uncivilized and unstylish in 1944, how would it be any less so today?

I would suggest my earlier comments about the officer in the quote above giving the "official" line on high collars is incorrect - the actual passage reads much more like the officer was simply hard pressed and made that up on the spot to soothe the legions before him...
 
ROG's post just put this whole debacle in a nutshell for me, and I'm not here to debate on, what I consider, an out of control thread. I'm sure if a topic came around, on which I was an expert, I'd be inclined to run it out to dozens of pages refuting every tiny point also. I can only hope there's bigger things plaguing our military, other than if my cuffs show below my sleeves or if the extra pockets, or the collar up or down make my uniform distinctly Canadian ::), but carry on, tis the season to be jolly!
 
Michael Dorosh said:
Here is the passage from Chappell (BRITISH BATTLEDRESS 1937-1961)

  In the last month of 1944 an Army Regulation permitted Other Ranks to wear collars and ties with BD when off duty.   The prohibition of collars and ties to this date - officially, at least (*) - had for a long time been a bone of contention among British soldiers, who resented the denial of a right enjoyed by members of other services.   The civilians in uniform who made up the vast majority of the British Army in wartime saw no good reason why they should be forced to present an old-fashioned and unstylish appearance when walking out; the author well remembers a 'current affairs' talk held in Bradford City's football stadium in October 1943 which degenerated into a heated discussion of this point.   Were British Tommies considered unequal to the 'civilized' task of knotting a tie?   The hard-pressed officer giving the talk was reduced to claiming that the Army had always worn button-up collars as protection against sword-thrusts.   He had no satisfactory answer when asked if officers, who had worn open-collar tunics since early in the century, had sword-resistant throats...

(*) this implies that British soldiers wanted so badly to wear neckties that they did so unofficially

This quote says a lot about the so-called "British traditions" of the stand up collar and the collared shirt and tie.   Those proposing to get rid of the DEU in favour of going back to our "British roots" may find it interesting that those same British soldiers they want to look like viewed the jacket and tie as "civilized" and the act of doing the collar up to the neck as "old-fashioned" and "unstylish."

If not wearing a tie was uncivilized and unstylish in 1944, how would it be any less so today?

I would suggest my earlier comments about the officer in the quote above giving the "official" line on high collars is incorrect - the actual passage reads much more like the officer was simply hard pressed and made that up on the spot to soothe the legions before him...

I never suggested we rid ourselves of the DEU. I support it for how it is currently used. I am totally agianst replacing the scarlet with the DEU.

Also, you must consider the oppinon of the public. If the public likes these uniforms (scarlet and DEU) why replace one with the other?

Also, Australia and New Zealand still use the scarlet dress (scottish dress)



 
Petawawa is a training outpost?   What on earth do you imagine the army is, Mr. Dorosh, a bunch of insurance salesmen playing at Mister Dressup   every other week end?

The 'real world' for The Royal Canadian Regiment, at least, is 'home' in Petawawa and active service in Afghanistan, now that the Balkans is over and done with.   I'm sure they'll be thrilled to know that they have to take their 'business suits' with them, next time they go, lest they create a bad impression with the locals.

NDHQ is overly full of less than productive people, a way too large percentage of them protecting the rears of ministers and senior bureaucrats: people in business suits.   NDHQ is to the real army as Xanadu would have been to Kublai Khan's real empire.
 
Aren't the cuffs supposed to show on that pic of the NZ Mess dress ??  ::) I hope the guy didn't get in too much trouble...  ;)
You'd never see me on the internet with hidden cuffs !!  ;D ;D
 
Rusty Old Joint said:
Petawawa is a training outpost?  What on earth do you imagine the army is, Mr. Dorosh, a bunch of insurance salesmen playing at Mister Dressup  every other week end?

The 'real world' for The Royal Canadian Regiment, at least, is 'home' in Petawawa and active service in Afghanistan, now that the Balkans is over and done with.  I'm sure they'll be thrilled to know that they have to take their 'business suits' with them, next time they go, lest they create a bad impression with the locals.

NDHQ is overly full of less than productive people, a way too large percentage of them protecting the rears of ministers and senior bureaucrats: people in business suits.  NDHQ is to the real army as Xanadu would have been to Kublai Khan's real empire.

So we really need scarlet doublets in Petawawa, do we?  The argument here was about DEUs being replaced by scarlet tunics.  I do recall your idea that we only needed camouflage suits, but you only make my point for me.  Your "real army" would still be fighting with pointy sticks without guys in Ottawa (and elsewhere) doing the procurement, lobbying Parliament for funding, etc. etc....  Take the blinkers off.  The combat arms are the most important element of the Forces but not by any means the only element.  I doubt you will accept that, however.
 
Ok, I'm starting to agree with Recceguy here.   This is getting silly.

Now we're arguing over cuff lengths and what flavour the tie should be.

Now everyone put your proposal into one single, 500 word paragraph or less.   Rather then rant on about fabric types and what Martha Stewart would think of it, make sure it adheres to the following principles that ROJ pointed out:

The functions of uniforms are:

"¢ To identify people as soldiers, as good military sense and the laws and usages of war require;

"¢ To protect soldiers, in so far as can be done, from the elements and, even, bio-chemical agents;

"¢ To display our military values.

I will still hold to my "Mechanic" Philosophy.   I simply do not believe that Combats do any justice to military Dress and Deportment in the public eye (Point 3).   I will again insist that I believe that any policy we propose on uniforms and dress should be based around the following policy:

4. Marines set the example. In any uniform we will maintain the highest standards of appearance -- at all times -- in all places. Exercise good judgment, if there's a doubt -- don't stop.

Replace "Marines" with "The Canadian Soldier".   What is it the RCR's say - "Never Pass a Fault".

Anyways, there should be a caveat attached to my proposal.   It is that all of this is LOW on the priority list - If the Army is going to designate resources and manpower to solving an issue, I've got a slew of issues on the operational spectrum that deserve immediate attention.

Let's see the proposals.

Infanteer

PS: I've always felt the Aussies had a nice looking Army dress - perhaps this could be the basis of a "Catch-All" military uniform?

 
Michael Dorosh said:
Regimental ties are not exactly uncommon; ties in which the colours are significant are more historically based, I think, to "school ties" than "regimental ties" but I honestly don't know which came first.

I've rarely worn one to work; most places have "business casual", and I think any new uniform should distinguish between an equivalent to Business (tie worn) and Business Casual.   The current DEU does exactly that, by the addition of a sweater or wearing of shirtsleeves.

The Other Ranks of the   British Army fought tooth and nail for the "privilege" of wearing a necktie.   See Brian L. Davis or Mike Chappell's works on battledress.   It may seem funny to all those hard core Brit heritage types, but the Other Ranks felt scandalized that they were not permitted to wear a tie.

And I'm quite serious here.   Chappell goes into some detail; at a large gathering of soldiers (sort of like a commander's hour) that took part in WWII, he related how the "official" line on uniforms was that the Army always wore stand up collars to resist sword thrusts at their neck.   The men replied that officers wore collar and tie since before WW I, how was it that they had sword-resistant necks?   The dress regulations were changed in 1943 or 44 for the British Army, and earlier for the Canadian Army.   In Canada, ORs wearing a necktie was not seen as a privilege, and they called the ties "Zombie ties".   Zombies were the undead from science fiction, and a term used in WW II to denote a draftee who refused to volunteer for "General Service" or combat employment.

It is funny that those who champion British heritage and the old standup collar are ignorant of the viewpoint at one time that wearing a necktie - like an officer or civilian - was a jealously fought-for privilege.

But you're proposing the opposite...

DEUs aren't necessarily uncomfortable (unless you're wearing the kilt) but take more maintenance than CADPATs - ironing creases, shining boots, etc.   A new patrol dress won't change that.

Before I respond, I must say that we are not arguing about cuffs showing (this was simply an anecdote I used to point out something) though even if we were, a debate on the aesthetics of our uniform is hardly silly.  We're forced to wear the thing every day (more or less) & I think that these debates, while perhaps not as pertinent as what field kit is better, are as important as any other.  Civilians can just buy other clothes if they don't like what they wear: their rules on dress are unwritten & therefore lenient.  Ours aren't either.

Anyway, here I go:  regarding business casual, I do come from the school of thought that this is a horrid phenomenon and is not, in fact, casual as it simply replaces a suit (which looks very nice) with a sweater (etc.) and is another, and I think uglier, formal 'order' of clothes.  I think the military needn't, as ROJ pointed out, follow civvy dress to a T.  Especially what may be unstylish fads.  The suit & tie, & therefore the normal DEUs, will be in style for a long time (with variation) but this business casual fad is just that, a fad.  (Keep in mind I have a very strong sense of sartorial morality so I am rather unjust in my discussion of clothes.)

Regarding the shirt & tie: I must mention that I was writing ignorantly in terms of the fact that ties were a sign of status in society (though I was not ignorant of this, it was simply 0300h when I posted!).  While that is a very, very interesting history of ties in the military, it does not totally change my pro-high-collar stance (perhaps it is the language we use which makes this discussion seem silly).  I am firstly advocating high-collars for all ranks, so officers will not be specially allowed to wear the tie while ncms get stabbed in the neck.  Also, I once again must state that the collar & tie look is at least not as strong as it was back when these Pongos fought to wear a tie.  While it is still the proper dress for parliaments & courts, etc.  It is nowhere near as pervasive as in the first 1/2 of the 20th century.  Also, badly-made polyester ties were never in style, except perhaps in the 80s.

One caveat, I do think the addition of collars & ties to the service or battle uniforms was a neat idea to bring the uniform to the standard of a walking-out one.  It is essentially the same as the argument for dressing the CADPATs with ascots & accoutrements or whatever.  However, our current DEU, while styled to reflect its utilitarian heritage, is purely either ceremonial or a louge suit equivalent.  It is not currently utilitarian enough, I think, to warrant the idea that a tie dresses it up, since the tie (or medals, etc.) cannot be taken away to leave the soldier with a utility uniform.

Just a side note on the summer tunic: I realise that this is not necessary when one has the option of shirt sleeves but I meant that the summer tunic would replace the short-sleeved shirt orders of dress.  The 5 uniforms I suggested were the complete repretoire (minus outerwear, underwear, other combat uniforms, etc.) for the army.  Essentially they provide what orders 1-3 currently do.  (Also, I think my mention of these 5 uniforms counts as my 500 word proposal, since I do tend to go on a lot.)

On the British vs Canadian debate I am not taking a side.  Though I am quite the Tory I don't advocate the scarlets or patrols over DEU because they are more British than American (DEUs were partly modelled after USAF service dress after all).  For me it is an aesthetic choice, with some grounding in that they are not totally foreign to Canada.  Remember also: the high collared tunic need not be unconfortable.  I envision a dress & undress uniform which is at least as confortable as DEUs--hopefully more so.  After all, people fought wars wearing scarlets whereas I don't think the DEUs can make that claim (yes, I realise admin work is just as important but my point's about confort).

PS. No soldier or sailor should be forced to wear polyester.  It is just plain evil.
 
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