RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’

[Jarnhamar]

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. The union’s not going to bat for anything other than some variant of the TBL patch. Punisher skulls, spartan helmets, all the other dumb some people like to wear are not being defended. Management has the right to manage and dress and deportment is firmly in their wheelhouse, but they pushed this one too far, too arbitrarily, at the wrong time. They managed to make a mockery of themselves in doing so. They galvanized some real solidarity among a lot of worn out and worn down members.

Nah you were clear, I get what you're saying. I'm agreeing with the union not going to bat for that punisher spartan helmet stuff. It's surprising police officers wouldn't see the problem with wearing a punisher patch.

 

[brihard]

Well, it's probably not like it's as important as the challenging 'scramble parking' issue you must be tackling right now as a highest priority item

RCMP union loses 'hot button' battle over free parking spaces in Victoria and Whistler

Labour tribunal rejects union's claim that RCMP changed employee parking policy

Members at Vancouver Island's RCMP headquarters call it "scramble parking."

The region's chief superintendent told a labour tribunal that no-charge spaces in and around the Victoria HQ were at such a premium that staff would regularly scour the parking lot for spaces from the windows during the workday.

And when one came up, they pounced.

"They would leave their workstations or meetings, exit the building, and move their personal vehicles into the vacant spots," the Federal Public Sector Labour Relations and Employment Board said in one of two recent decisions devoted to the problem.

"Parking is a hot button issue. For those who must drive to work, the question of where one can park, and what one must pay to park there can be of significant importance."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/parking-rcmp-union-victoria-whistler-1.5706964

There were two ‘unfair labour practice’ complaints raised with the labour board over parking.

When a bargaining agent is pending certification or has served notice to bargain, conditions of employment are statutorily frozen. That means management isn’t supposed to change the terms and conditions of work outside of the bargaining process. To do so can be considered an ‘unfair labour practice’, and can be challenged before the Public Service Labour Relations and Employment Board.

The two ULPs on parking failed for different reasons. In Victoria, the ‘scramble parking’ was not a new thing, it just got a bit worse because more spots became reserved for police vehicles. It fell within what management can manage. In the case of Whistler losing free parking it was because the decision was entirely outside of the RCMP’s control. The municipality made that call.

Other ULPs have been fought and on on other matters, such as changes to NCO promotion requirements.

The union, of course, is not one guy. They can and are working on many things at once. Collective bargaining is the big one, but they’re simultaneously representing hundreds of members in various matters. As a rep I’ve been dealing with things as diverse as disability accommodations and GRTW; a whole unit facing serious harassment issues; another crew that just lost their parking (to the impact of $3k per member per year); a guy’s grievance that first lagged then got lost in the bureaucracy til I told them how to find it; a member coming back off parental leave and wanting refresher training, a guy whose acting pay was backlogged over $10k... So yeah- it’s not all about patches and parking. The matters making the news are not the most significant things going on right now to advance the interests of the members.

 

[Remius]

Thanks for the answers to my questions Brihard.

 

[mariomike]

That’s why members finally fought a case to the Supreme Court to in the right to unionize, and why they pushed to get the numbers to actually certify.

Congratulations, and long overdue, Brihard.

The Toronto Police Union was chartered in Sept. 1917 by the Trades and Labour Congress. Their first strike was on December 18, 1918, and lasted four days.

Toronto ambulance unionized on Oct. 20, 1917 and Toronto firefighters on February 28, 1918.

Today, we do not have, and do not seek, the right to strike.

Well, it's probably not like it's as important as the challenging 'scramble parking' issue you must be tackling right now as a highest priority item

Related,

Paid parking DND property 
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/63462.425
22 pages.

What's the idea behind displaying union insignia's? Everyone belongs to the union, it seems redundant. 

To make sure the taxpayers know, and do not forget.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Unions have that whole good and bad aspect to them. Protecting their members from getting screwed over, but they also have the image of protecting really bad members.

And once again I must say Unions don't protect bad members, they make sure management does due process before they start droppin' hammers.  Does management want people to do their job right?  Do your job right.

 

[brihard]

Unions have that whole good and bad aspect to them. Protecting their members from getting screwed over, but they also have the image of protecting really bad members.

Bruce nailed it. How many times on this site have we talked about the trials and tribulations the chain of command faces when they inherit a troop who’s been a total s***bag for years, and nobody ever documented it? The RCMP’s code of conduct process has been weaponized by management against members for decades. ‘Due process’ now finally means ‘due process’. I think it’s fair that an organization literally composed of experienced investigators should be able to handle and document disciplinary investigations and allegations in an aboveboard manner.

 

[mariomike]

How many times on this site have we talked about the trials and tribulations the chain of command faces when they inherit a troop who’s been a total s***bag for years, and nobody ever documented it?

Depends on the organization, I guess. It was almost impossible to get thrown out of ours. You really had to put your mind to it. Unless you became a public disgrace, they'd tolerate almost anything.

 

[Jarnhamar]

And once again I must say Unions don't protect bad members, they make sure management does due process before they start droppin' hammers.  Does management want people to do their job right?  Do your job right.

Right. That's what I mean by the image of it. Optics. They're championing due process, like a defense lawyer. Some really shitty people remain on the job because of technicalities or management being lazy/dumb, but the union has the optics of protecting them even if it's not accurate. So when you have a union insignia plastered on vehicles or whatever it *could* give off an impression of a special club or misplaced protection. Or maybe not

[I think when a public servant is suspended with pay for 12 years, earning over a million dollars sitting at home, it's natural to question due process but we've gone over that before
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/05/06/exclusive-toronto-officer-suspension/ ]

 

[Jarnhamar]

Depends on the organization, I guess. It was almost impossible to get thrown out of ours. You really had to put your mind to it. Unless you became a public disgrace, they'd tolerate almost anything.

That's pretty scary when it's someone who is responsible for lives of others. Without getting too far off topic I know of someone who was fired from one of those life or death jobs for drinking on the job and prescription drug abuse. Looks like they're getting their job back- hopefully they don't kill anyone.



I think the RCMP getting a union is awesome and will address a lot of problem issues by giving rank and file members a voice. Ideally it will be a lot easier to punt their problem people and the good, professional members will get better taken care of (manning, kit and equipment, more competitive salary) and that will carry over into citizens being supported better.

I think citizens would be shocked to hear about some of the conditions and problems RCMP rank and file deal with.

 

[Navy_Pete]

And once again I must say Unions don't protect bad members, they make sure management does due process before they start droppin' hammers.  Does management want people to do their job right?  Do your job right.

I've seen both; in one case a guy did something stupid that could have killed people and shut down the production line for a few weeks for major repairs. It was actually the second time, so the company fired him on the spot. The union went to bat for him and got him his job back, but they refused to put him back in the same spot (again, see almost killing people and costing them millions), so he worked the next few years in an office doing meaningless paper shuffle until he retired. That was the local steel workers union and was pretty much every bad union stereotype you could think of.

In other cases I've seen unions working with companies to come up with things like production targets, QC improvements etc then driving their members to meet them. The idea was if the company is more profitable and competitive they will still have jobs, and last I heard the company is doing really well and out competing others that moved operations off shore, so they even hired some more people.

Glad the RCMP finally has a union, as their management has been using/abusing people for a long time. I think the union patch is a good idea, as it clearly distinguishes from the other ones, but generally still think a TBL patch on a cop uniform is completely redundant.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

 

[I think when a public servant is suspended with pay for 12 years, earning over a million dollars sitting at home, it's natural to question due process but we've gone over that before
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/05/06/exclusive-toronto-officer-suspension/ ]

And how do you think every TO cop who came to work honourably for the last 12 years feels about this?  I know, because we have it here in my place of employment, pissed off to no end.  I reiterate, if you can't get rid of folks not meeting the standard then you haven't done due diligence.

I also think a lot of these layers of tribunals, hearings, etc came about for a few reasons.
First of all accusations and lawsuits are made against LEO's all the time. Best defense is a good offense, so dirtbags have no problem reaching into their diapers and tossing shit everywhere hoping some sticks, so therefore extra protection is needed against that.  Secondly it used to be too easy to get someone tossed, and/or shit jobs,  to those whom might not have been a good fit in the old boys club.  But now the problem becomes the devices that are there to protect good people can be manipulated by those who are not good people.

Ever the reason we need good management,.....and the lack of that seems to be an epidemic in this country from bottom to top.

 

[Eaglelord17]

And once again I must say Unions don't protect bad members, they make sure management does due process before they start droppin' hammers.  Does management want people to do their job right?  Do your job right.

Disagree strongly, and this is from a worker in one of the strongest unions in the country. I can say that the union where I am at has created some of the laziest most ineffective workers possible. Guys who would be working minimum wage at McDonalds if they didn't work there making 30+$ a hour, throw fits if they lose their out of contract over 1 hour coffee breaks, purposely break equipment, don't do their jobs, fail to clean up, etc. We literally have guys who show up for their 12 hour shift, are at their machine for a hour, disappear for 8-10 hours then show up for the last hour or two. This is because the union protects them. It actually makes people who do their job want to not do it as they are always picking up the slack for the lazy people and there is nothing to show for it. Your both paid the same and there is no consequence to being a lazy POS.

This whole thing about the RCMP throwing fits about being told what they can and cannot wear on their uniform is a joke. If you aren't issued it, don't wear it. It doesn't matter what it stands for or doesn't stand for. It really isn't hard. You want to put a bumper sticker on your car, go ahead, but your a public servant and as such shouldn't be modifying or wearing non-approved kit.

My take on the police in Canada is that basically it is more or less a old boys club. They mostly go after criminals, but they fail to go after the criminals within their own ranks. The few times they do is only after sustained media coverage and pressure to actually take action and even then usually at worst results in a slap on the wrist. The fact that the police are being treated similar to how the CAF was in the 90s is partially their own fault just as it was partially the militaries fault. Thanks to cameras and the internet we can see what the police are actually getting up to, and many of us have been very disappointed. Start cleaning up the ranks, self reporting, actually following up on the reporting, etc. And maybe they might start to get some respect back. Things like what happened with the Nova Scotia shooter and how I am basically looking at it as a giant coverup due to the RCMP response doesn't help their case.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Your whole post just confirmed everything we've been saying even though I'm sure you didn't mean to.  Thanks...

 

[Eaglelord17]

Your whole post just confirmed everything we've been saying even though I'm sure you didn't mean to.  Thanks...

I get the point of management doing their jobs, I firmly believe that it would make a big difference. That being said the Union has created a environment where if they try to do their job they call harassment and the management gets fired. I wish I was joking.

 

[brihard]

Disagree strongly, and this is from a worker in one of the strongest unions in the country. I can say that the union where I am at has created some of the laziest most ineffective workers possible. Guys who would be working minimum wage at McDonalds if they didn't work there making 30+$ a hour, throw fits if they lose their out of contract over 1 hour coffee breaks, purposely break equipment, don't do their jobs, fail to clean up, etc. We literally have guys who show up for their 12 hour shift, are at their machine for a hour, disappear for 8-10 hours then show up for the last hour or two. This is because the union protects them. It actually makes people who do their job want to not do it as they are always picking up the slack for the lazy people and there is nothing to show for it. Your both paid the same and there is no consequence to being a lazy POS.

This whole thing about the RCMP throwing fits about being told what they can and cannot wear on their uniform is a joke. If you aren't issued it, don't wear it. It doesn't matter what it stands for or doesn't stand for. It really isn't hard. You want to put a bumper sticker on your car, go ahead, but your a public servant and as such shouldn't be modifying or wearing non-approved kit.

My take on the police in Canada is that basically it is more or less a old boys club. They mostly go after criminals, but they fail to go after the criminals within their own ranks. The few times they do is only after sustained media coverage and pressure to actually take action and even then usually at worst results in a slap on the wrist. The fact that the police are being treated similar to how the CAF was in the 90s is partially their own fault just as it was partially the militaries fault. Thanks to cameras and the internet we can see what the police are actually getting up to, and many of us have been very disappointed. Start cleaning up the ranks, self reporting, actually following up on the reporting, etc. And maybe they might start to get some respect back. Things like what happened with the Nova Scotia shooter and how I am basically looking at it as a giant coverup due to the RCMP response doesn't help their case.

Sounds like you’re projecting the problems and inadequacies of your own place of employment and union on others. Your problem, not ours. The RCMP exist under their own enabling legislation, do not and will not have or seek the right to strike, and have internal legal and quasi-legal mechanisms to deal with conduct.

Incidentally there’s actually labour board case law on the right of represented workers to wear something in solidarity with their union. It’s almost like the NPF engaged their counsel and did due diligence before fighting this. https://www.ciu-sdi.ca/tag/fpslreb/

The issues you’re bringing up about police sitting off suspended with pay for years is a legislative problem, not a labour relations one. The law dictates what can and can’t be done as it pertains to suspension with or without pay in the policing environment. Direct your complaints to your legislators; they’re the gatekeepers on this, and they own the problem. As it stands in most jurisdictions internal processes have to wait until ongoing criminal matters are settled, and historically that can take a long time. Some legislators and mayors have asked for the ability to suspend without pay. Again- legislative fault.

The union exists to protect the rights of members. Nobody else is entitled to like what that looks like. If suddenly the system is being used fully and you don’t like what that results, petition the appropriate democratic processes to change the system.

 

[mariomike]

I don't get it. What's the connection between tax payers and police, EMS and fire fighters belonging to a union?

We work for the city taxpayers. During elections, unions support politicians - who ask the taxpayers to vote for them - who support unions.

Eg: We are seeing union endorsements now in the US presidential election. We also have it in our provincial and municipal elections.

I know of someone who was fired from one of those life or death jobs for drinking on the job and prescription drug abuse. Looks like they're getting their job back- hopefully they don't kill anyone.

They send them to rehab again and again ...

It is presumed the alcoholism was caused by PTSD. It is also presumed the PTSD was caused by the "cumulative effect" of 9-1-1 calls.

WSIB says the City has to place them into a "comparable" job. There are none. But, plenty of "suitable" jobs.

eg: I know guys who were transferred to the Parks Dept. as indoor Arena - Pool Operators. Or, deckhands on the ferry boats. etc. etc...

No loss of pension, seniority, sick bank etc.

And best of all,

Employees who are placed in a permanent alternate position, due to an occupational injury/illness (as defined by the Workplace Safety & Insurance Board), will be subject to the normal assessment period and will receive the wage rate of the position to which they are assigned. If the pre-injury rate of pay is higher than the relocated position rate, then the pre-injury rate is to be maintained. It is understood that the pre-injury rate is subject to all wage increases negotiated.

 

[Jarnhamar]

We work for the city taxpayers. During elections, unions support politicians - who ask the taxpayers to vote for them - who support unions.

Not very apolitical. Hopefully the RCMP union avoids getting involved in partisan politics.

 

[brihard]

Not very apolitical. Hopefully the RCMP union avoids getting involved in partisan politics.

Time will tell I suppose. I don’t know if they’ll deem it necessary. Generally though, unions have a role to play in exercising collectively roles than members cannot exercise individually. The union has already been pushing back on one municipality’s plans to move away from RCMP, in part by pushing for accurate coating to be published. I could easily see the union having a role to play in providing a voice for individual police affected by things like the discussions over rural crime, changing gun laws, occupational health and safety, etc. Some thing (like pensions and VAC benefits) can’t be collectively bargained, so it’s an inherently political process to advocate for those. The union has already testified before parliamentary committee. So I’m not really sure where you draw the line in what’s too ‘political’.

 

[mariomike]

Hopefully the RCMP union avoids getting involved in partisan politics.

Time will tell I suppose.

Right. Readers may recall the OPPA going after the provincial Conservative party.

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk00QnrPua-UiFn6e2EAnlxnPXkjC6w%3A1602524640547&source=hp&ei=4JWEX5riHuy1ggef7rrwBg&q=hudak+opp&oq=hudak+opp&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIFCCEQoAE6BAgjECc6CwguEMcBEK8BEJECOggIABCxAxCDAToLCC4QsQMQxwEQowI6CAguELEDEIMBOgUIABCxAzoECC4QJzoOCC4QxwEQrwEQyQMQkQI6BAguEEM6CgguEMcBEK8BEEM6BAgAEEM6BwgAELEDEEM6EAguELEDEMcBEKMCEEMQkwI6CAguEMcBEK8BOgIIADoKCAAQsQMQyQMQQzoHCC4QsQMQQzoKCC4QxwEQowIQCjoFCAAQyQM6AgguOgQILhAKOggILhDJAxCTAjoNCC4QxwEQrwEQFBCHAjoHCAAQFBCHAjoGCAAQFhAeOgkIABDJAxAWEB5QtBBYokdg3ktoAXAAeACAAcwFiAH_EJIBCTAuOC4xLjYtMZgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwia0sO_za_sAhXsmuAKHR-3Dm4Q4dUDCAw&uact=5#spf=1602524651717

 

[RedFive]

What's wrong with the pistols? I had no idea they were lemons....

That's one of the reasons I used to like a 'wheel gun' - 6 shots guaranteed.

There's a couple issues with the Smith and Wesson 5946.

Firstly, S&W stopped making parts for them in 1999. We're out of parts. So now we hire contractors to scratch build parts like breech blocks/barrels, recoil spring guide rods, and trigger springs. There have been numerous Force wide emails sent out to monitor your pistol for cracking in the breech block. I have also been warned by BFI's to watch out for bent guide rods and variable trigger pulls. I am told the contractor to produce the parts was supposed to be Colt Canada, but both CC and S&W told the GoC to pound sand. Who knows who makes the parts now? (if you do, I'd love to hear from you) I shoot my pistol on my own time regularly, and have little faith in it as a life or death option of last resort. (The part above about CC and the GoC is rumour, told to me by a firearms instructor and should be treated as such)

Secondly, the trigger pull is 12 pounds, and a ridiculous length. Referred to as a "lawyer's trigger" (again, by a Firearms instructor) the idea is the only way this pistol will go off is if you meant it to go off. Great idea at the concept stage, but it makes it bloody hard to shoot, even for a guy who has grown up around guns. Other members who don't practice on their own time or lack the wrist strength to keep it on target while dealing with the trigger often populate the learning assistance range spots after failed qualifications. I'm not advocating for a 2lb trigger, but a more reasonable weight would be suitable.

Thirdly, there is no rail to mount a flashlight on. That might seem to some to be a first world problem, but its fairly common place amongst other forces and even RCMP Police Dog Services. Why? If I've got my pistol in one hand and flashlight in the other, the door doesn't even have to be locked to become an insurmountable problem. Do I holster my pistol and open the door with a flashlight out so I can see what's on the other side? Or do I open the door with my gun out sans flashlight, and hope whatever is on the other side is easily seen?

They are great guns, and I would love to keep mine as a gun owner when it is retired. It'll never happen, as they're prohibited by barrel length. I just don't trust the thing with my life.

You gotta be kidding me....Ontario Corrections gets made to measure brand new ones every 5 years or we can refuse to do an outside/hospital escort.  And as far as I can remember, in the last 31 years, we've only had a firearm pointed at an officer one time.

Our body armour used to say it was NIJ Lvl II on it, then they changed that to an RCMP specification number I've been unable to find referenced in Policy. It's also only allowed to be replaced every 7 years, instead of 5 like every other armour manufacturer I'm aware of.

Needless to say, I and many other members have bought our own IIIA armour. Cost me $1400 including the carrier to fit it, but getting home to my family is worth that amount, at least.

The hard body armour carriers that ride in the back of every PC these days are rated to IV (30-06 AP). No idea what the life span is on those, but I seriously doubt they plan on replacing them in a timely fashion.

Are you sure you're not an MP? Sounds an awful lot like the problems in that organization

100% sure, but a phone conversation I had with an MP the other day while at work led me to believe the organizations suffer from some of the same problems...


Brihard is clearly vastly more articulate than I am and has done a great job of explaining most of the frustrations with management right now. The real anger in this is for management to drop this bomb on us while there are so many other, vastly more pressing issues that need dealing with. They instead chose to take aim at one of the few concepts/campaigns/displays of camaraderie and espirit de corps left in Policing, in the name of wokeness. I have since heard that management only took issue with TBL flags because Heritage Canada protested that it was a defacement of the Canadian flag being worn by Federal Employees. I'll believe that when the RCMP becomes the top paid police force in Canada.

I look forward to the NPF achieving our first bargaining agreement, the result of which I hope will be management being held to account and the s***pumps of the organization being thrown out on their ***. And hopefully better pay, kit and working conditions will attract better recruits. My time at Depot was... scary.