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Premier Ford To Use "Notwithstanding" Against Education Staff- split fromFreedom Convoy Protests

Someone on another forum posted an interesting observation. The wording of Section 33 of the Charter ('notwithstanding clause') says that a piece of legislation can declare that it operates "notwithstanding a provision included in section 2 or sections 7 to 15 of this Charter." (emphasis added). Section 13 of Ontario Bill 28 'Keeping Students in Class Act, 2022 uses the text "notwithstanding sections 2, 7 and 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms".

I have no clue if this minor difference amounts to anything, but somebody might be able to convince a court to at least hear their argument that the declaration fails because it is inconsistent with the Charter or that some right contained in Sections 8 to 14 are somehow offended by the legislation. IDK.
 
If any CUPE employees want to give up their $27 per hour (average) and excellent benefit jobs, I know a ton of folks making minimum wage that would jump at the chance to get on that gravy train.

Not necessary. Toronto District School Board currently has dozens of jobs advertised across a variety of different job functions. Tell your acquaintances making minimum wage to hop on the website and apply. Why didn’t you offer that idea to them already?

Someone on another forum posted an interesting observation. The wording of Section 33 of the Charter ('notwithstanding clause') says that a piece of legislation can declare that it operates "notwithstanding a provision included in section 2 or sections 7 to 15 of this Charter." (emphasis added). Section 13 of Ontario Bill 28 'Keeping Students in Class Act, 2022 uses the text "notwithstanding sections 2, 7 and 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms".

I have no clue if this minor difference amounts to anything, but somebody might be able to convince a court to at least hear their argument that the declaration fails because it is inconsistent with the Charter or that some right contained in Sections 8 to 14 are somehow offended by the legislation. IDK.

Likely won’t make a difference. 2, 7 and 15 will likely suffice to allow the creation of offences. 8-14 are all of a criminal procedural nature; of course 8, 9 and 10 we’re well familiar with; 11-14 deal with things like presumption of innocence, right to an interpreter, self-crimination, lots of procedural stuff. Basically it just means that any prosecution for newly created offences would proceed as per existing offences.
 
Not necessary. Toronto District School Board currently has dozens of jobs advertised across a variety of different job functions. Tell your acquaintances making minimum wage to hop on the website and apply. Why didn’t you offer that idea to them already?
I'm sure there's plenty of jobs in every city in Canada, but despite popular belief, Toronto is not the capital of Ontario or a desirable location to live.

CUPE is trying to fight the 2022 election they got trounced in by holding kids hostage and revoking their right to education. I guess like Animal Farm, some rights are more equal than others.
 
I'm sure there's plenty of jobs in every city in Canada, but despite popular belief, Toronto is not the capital of Ontario or a desirable location to live.

CUPE is trying to fight the 2022 election they got trounced in by holding kids hostage and revoking their right to education. I guess like Animal Farm, some rights are more equal than others.
You’re moving the goalposts. You said, in the context of a thread about the CUPE 4400 strike, “If any CUPE employees want to give up their $27 per hour (average) and excellent benefit jobs, I know a ton of folks making minimum wage that would jump at the chance to get on that gravy train.”

CUPE 4400 is the local for, by name, the “Toronto Education Workers”, though their reach extends well beyond tomorrow. I checked, and TDSB is hiring for numerous jobs represented by CUPE 4400. Likely some of the other affected school boards are too. Therefore your snark was poorly informed- there are jobs available.

To be blunt, “if they don’t like it they can quit” is, at best, a juvenile retort. Ironically it’s the same crap attitude that’s been hobbling CAF for a while. How would your trade fare if it had a similar pay scale as opposed to being an in demand trade offering a signing bonus? And don’t some of these CUPE jobs in question have a higher educational requirement than many CAF trades?

In Canada, workers have the right to collectively bargain for better working conditions- until the province abuses the NWC to try to temporarily take that right from them I guess. “If you don’t like it, leave” is not the foundation upon which labour relations in Canada are built.
 
"If you don't like it, leave" is the foundation for most jobs in Canada. So is the counterpart, "If you want to keep me, pay more." Most jobs aren't unionized and don't involve collective bargaining.
 
, but despite popular belief, Toronto is not the capital of Ontario or a desirable location to live.

As a matter of fact, Toronto is the capital of Ontario.

You should see what buyers are offering for houses in our area.

To be blunt, “if they don’t like it they can quit” is, at best, a juvenile retort.

Like it's a race to the bottom.

 
Maybe he meant of Canada. I have been informed that people don't mean what they say, or say what they mean, around here.
 
You’re moving the goalposts. You said, in the context of a thread about the CUPE 4400 strike, “If any CUPE employees want to give up their $27 per hour (average) and excellent benefit jobs, I know a ton of folks making minimum wage that would jump at the chance to get on that gravy train.”

CUPE 4400 is the local for, by name, the “Toronto Education Workers”, though their reach extends well beyond tomorrow. I checked, and TDSB is hiring for numerous jobs represented by CUPE 4400. Likely some of the other affected school boards are too. Therefore your snark was poorly informed- there are jobs available.

To be blunt, “if they don’t like it they can quit” is, at best, a juvenile retort. Ironically it’s the same crap attitude that’s been hobbling CAF for a while. How would your trade fare if it had a similar pay scale as opposed to being an in demand trade offering a signing bonus? And don’t some of these CUPE jobs in question have a higher educational requirement than many CAF trades?

In Canada, workers have the right to collectively bargain for better working conditions- until the province abuses the NWC to try to temporarily take that right from them I guess. “If you don’t like it, leave” is not the foundation upon which labour relations in Canada are built.

Ottawa Catholic School Board has a number of positions as well. Including plenty of open ended competitions. They are open right now. I suspect looking in a few months they will still have plenty of positions still open.

Not sure I would call these jobs « a gravy train » either…
 
Not sure I would call these jobs « a gravy train » either…

"Stop the gravy train!" was used as a political slogan in our our town a decade ago.

Remember when they eliminated our license plate fees and sent us all reimbursements just before the election? That bribe to the voters costs the province 1.1 billion a year. They could have dropped our license plate fees by three quarters, and met the salary requests of the education support workers.

I can understand going cheap on some things, but not when it comes to kids and their education.
 
"Stop the gravy train!" was used as a political slogan in our our town a decade ago.



I can understand going cheap on some things, but not when it comes to kids and their education.
There is nothing cheap about our education costs. Interesting though, if you drive by one of the private schools you will notice that there are far fewer cars proportionally in the staff parking lot yet the achievement level in those schools is consistently as high as or higher than in a neighbouring elementary facility.

Here is a question for you: when is enough, enough? Where does an employer, particularly a public service one, set the bar for salaries saying "this is enough and this is fair"? I spent 35 years collecting a civil service salary (federal) and in all that time I never received a contract worthy of my efforts imho. My salary was frozen, capped, pay levels were stopped and had just about every other constraint imaginable with the exception of a roll-back placed upon it. Yet, at the end of the day I was still reasonably well paid. CUPE needs to look at what others in the private sector performing the same or similar functions are being paid and bargain accordingly, making those levels public knowledge so the tax payer can know that they aren't being gouged.
 
"If you don't like it, leave" is the foundation for most jobs in Canada. So is the counterpart, "If you want to keep me, pay more." Most jobs aren't unionized and don't involve collective bargaining.
Sure, but many do, and, importantly, it’s a protected Charter right. The government made it FAR worse through its legislative attempt to strip that. There are several lesser tools it could have used. I’m annoyed that the government hasn’t dealt with these workers fairly. I’m pissed off that the government is attacking their underlying rights in this matter. I think a lot of people are.

Aaaanyway, meanwhile, the Ontario Labour Relations Board has continued today for its fourth straight day of hearings on this- the fact that an administrative tribunal is convened at 7 a.m. on a Sunday show how urgently this is being treated. I’m gonna try to shift from being part of us all yelling at each other (because clearly none of us are changing each others’ minds) and transition more to law nerd and try to break down some of the procedural stuff.


I’m trying to follow some of this live; it’s law I’m much less familiar with. This morning CUPE and Ontario are arguing conflicting points before the Board. The matter was brought to the Board by Ontario to determine whether an illegal strike is taking place, but this seems to be quickly progressing to broader legal questions that are definitely going to challenge the limits of the bird’s authority.

For context, the Ontario Labour Relations Board is an administrative tribunal, not a court. It exists under the authority of, and to adjudicate matters under the Ontario Labour Relations Act. Boards can and do consider broader legal principles in making decisions, but they cannot strike down laws, and they cannot create binding legal precedent. The decisions and actions of an administrative tribunal are confined to what the law creating them gives them power over. This system exists to let people with greater technical expertise make legally binding decisions on routine matters. The example most likely to be familiar to members here would be VRAB, the Veterans Review and Appeal Board. Or if you’ve ever dealt with a landlord/tenant tribunal, same idea.

I have no idea how this hearing will go, however the board has expressed at least conceptual openness to sending both parties back to the table. Ontario stated that such an order would be uncharted waters for the Board; to which the Board then pointed out that “this whole bill is uncharted terrain, we have never had a bill like this in Canadian history.”

Part of the argument the government is making is that the collective bargaining right to strike arising out of 2(d) of the Charter doesn’t cover mid-contract strikes. They argue that because they claim a collective agreement exists (imposed by Bill 28), the Union does not enjoy a freedom of association right to strike. That’s an… interesting take. It rests entirely on the logic of “we have the power to force this and so you cannot do anything about it”.

Meanwhile, CUPE is raising arguments about whether the definition of “strike” in the Ontario Labour Relations Act is itself a Charter compliant definition, and if it isn’t, whether Bill 28 has ‘notwithstood’ that. I’m still trying to wrap my head around the significance of that but it may speak to what authority the Board actually has to adjudicate this.

Either side can request judicial review of a tribunal decision; that would go to the Ontario Superior Court of Justice in this case. Usually judicial review focuses on ‘reasonableness’ - could the administrative decision maker have reasonably reached the decision they did? (Not whether the court agrees with the decision). However they can also review for correctness, when there are stronger legal questions at play, such as constitutional issues, or broadly applicable principles of law.

One way or another it would not surprise me to see this matter proceed pst OLRB to the courts, whether by judicial review of an eventual OLRB decision, or other separate application. The province has chosen to force a very significant legal dispute through invoking NWC versus the right to strike. This is probably the most significant event in Canadian labour law in decades.
 

I think this poll is a good indicator. I am of the same mind that I likely would be on the government’s side as far as negociating higher wages in this current climate but I think using the NWC has undermined their position.
 
There is nothing cheap about our education costs. Interesting though, if you drive by one of the private schools you will notice that there are far fewer cars proportionally in the staff parking lot yet the achievement level in those schools is consistently as high as or higher than in a neighbouring elementary facility.
Usually the student to teacher ratio is much lower, so there are smaller classes and less teachers (and number of cars doesn't translate into teachers when there are things like public transport, carpooling and biking/walking).

Weirdly students from (likely) wealthy parents, who are placing a premium on education, and are in a better learning environment, will perform better than kids in the public system on average.

Here is a question for you: when is enough, enough? Where does an employer, particularly a public service one, set the bar for salaries saying "this is enough and this is fair"? I spent 35 years collecting a civil service salary (federal) and in all that time I never received a contract worthy of my efforts imho. My salary was frozen, capped, pay levels were stopped and had just about every other constraint imaginable with the exception of a roll-back placed upon it. Yet, at the end of the day I was still reasonably well paid. CUPE needs to look at what others in the private sector performing the same or similar functions are being paid and bargain accordingly, making those levels public knowledge so the tax payer can know that they aren't being gouged.
They can't do that if they aren't given the chance to bargain. Also, a lot of times public servants are paid less compared to private sector, but it's not necessarily an apples-to-apples comparison.

And just because they have benefits doesn't mean they are overpaid; if others doing the same work don't they shouldn't be trying to drag them down out of jealousy.
 
I know teachers who have been in both systems. There are pros and cons to working in both systems.

I have been told stories of private school teachers being put under incredible pressure to bump the grades of students of parents who happen to be wealthy benefactors of the school. And you had better believe their employment was on the line.

That would never happen in a public school.

OTOH, teachers in private schools generally have more resources, smaller classes and more freedom to achieve the curriculum in a manner that they choose.

Pay may or may not be better- it depends on the dynamics of various school boards, seniority and which private school they work for.
 
Private schools can and do routinely refuse students, increasing strains on public schools that have to support those students.
How is that “increasing the strain”?

The public system literally exists to teach every child in a given province.
 
If you do not have to worry about supporting weaker or special needs students, your costs go down, and you increase cost and strain on the system that remains.
Fine, but the point remains that the public system exists to teach 100% of kids, whether private schools exist or not.
 
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