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Politics in 2017

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jmt18325 said:
What you see as a 'semantics error' is actually a very important detail.  He shouldn't have went and it was wrong, but it isn't like he was doing some kind of back room business deal with the CEO of General Motors.  The Aga is a long time family friend that is also the head of an organization that Canada has partnered with many times to do good work around the world.

Who is a registered lobbyist. It doesn't matter if its an international business or a charity. There's a reason we have conflict of interest laws, and its not up to the Prime Minister to decide which laws he follows and which he doesn't. The only reason Trudeau is fighting this, is because even with his trust fund wealth, that flight would have cost $20-40K CAD based on calls made to private helicopter contractors in the area.

This whole issue is moot if he followed the rules, and cleared it with the ethics commissioner first.
 
SeaKingTacco said:
How in the hell do you know what exactly did, or did not happen on that island? Were you there?

I don't know what went on.  On the other hand, I see no reason to speculate, or to pretend the Aga Khan is someone he isn't.

He shouldn't have gone. 
 
JT is such a disappointment.  I do hope his townhall road show keeps going though... it's like a slow motion train wreck. 
 
PuckChaser said:
This whole thing is a non-issue if Trudeau simply paid for the helicopter ride himself, or insisted on reimbursing the cost.

I am no fan of the Sun King, for many reasons. And I really hate to defend him, his government, or his party, or his hairdresser, but:

I still cannot be offended by his helicopter ride. It is a method of transportation, and the only viable one in this situation. Had the distance been much less, the Aga Khan could have sent a boat to pick him up. Would that have been any different, other than the cost? What if he flies in to see another friend in another country, and that friend sends his car and a driver? Would that be any different, other than the cost?

What about the accommodation? Why can he stay as a guest at no charge and not be challenged on that, but a helicopter ride, alone, is a huge sin?

I stated several days ago that this is not a crime. A crime occurs when somebody is murdered, assaulted, raped, robbed, defrauded etcetera, ie death or injury or property loss is incurred. There are lots of paper crimes where no such injury or loss occurs, but they are considered to be crimes just "because". The Firearms Act is a prime example of that. What real injury or damage was done, to Her Majesty or Canada by, going on a friend's helicopter? Why is free accommodation not considered to be at least as injurious or damaging? I question the wisdom of the rule in this case, as it is completely inflexible in its application while also being too narrow in scope, unless I am missing something (as I may well be because I am not fussed enough about this incident to bother studying every little detail).

He screwed up by trying to keep this secret from the press and public, by not seeking advice from the ethics commissioner beforehand, and being hypocritical, and deserves everything coming his way for that.

I take glee, however, in any loss of popularity or increased scrutiny that this brings.

And I am also finding myself in general agreement with jmt18325 on a lot of things in this thread, which is a novelty that I find equally troubling. I should perhaps start drinking heavily and see if I can get over both distressing situations...

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/trudeau-not-first-politician-to-face-heat-for-ride-in-aga-khan-s-helicopter-1.3252064

Trudeau not first politician to face heat for ride in Aga Khan's helicopter

Jordan Press, The Canadian Press

Published Sunday, January 22, 2017 1:06PM EST

OTTAWA - If only Justin Trudeau had bumped into Earl Deveaux at the airport in the Bahamas - he might have been able to save himself a chopper-load of political grief.

After all, Deveaux - formerly the island nation's environment minister - has himself been a passenger on board the Aga Khan's private helicopter, just like Trudeau, and was made to suffer the professional consequences.

It was September 2010 when someone snapped a photo of Deveaux walking away from the helicopter in question during a stopover on his way to the Aga Khan's private island - the same island Trudeau and his family visited during a New Years getaway.

For Deveaux, the political perils were decidedly more glaring.

The Aga Khan was seeking permission to dredge offshore from his island, inside an established marine reserve, in order to make room for his massive luxury yacht, among other vessels. Locals feared irrevocable environmental harm.

The area, known as the Exumas, had become popular with celebrities and super-wealthy people keen on owning their own island. Indeed, the Hollywood Reporter calls the Bahamas the "epicentre of the private-island world."

Owners include actor Johnny Depp, singers Faith Hill and Tim McGraw and former investment banker Steve Harrington.

And, of course, the Aga Khan - the wealthy philanthropist and hereditary spiritual leader to the world's approximately 15 million Ismaili Muslims who also happens to be a close family friend of Canada's prime minister.

Trudeau has been facing heat over the flight ever since the National Post reported on his family holiday at the Aga Khan's island, which also included Liberal MP Seamus O'Regan and Liberal party president Anna Gainey.

The federal Conflict of Interest Act and Trudeau's own ethics guidelines for his cabinet ministers bar the use of sponsored travel in private aircraft, allowing it only for exceptional circumstances and only with the commissioner's prior approval.

The act also prohibits a minister or any member of their family from accepting gifts or "advantages" that could reasonably be seen as influencing government decisions. The only exception is if the person providing the gift is a friend.

The federal ethics commissioner is looking into the holiday and the chopper flight. Trudeau has repeatedly called the Aga Khan a longtime family friend who served as a pallbearer at his father's funeral.

Back in 2010, there were immediate calls for Deveaux's resignation. The Bahamian newspaper the Tribune quoted him as saying he couldn't be bought with a single flight.

Then-prime minister Hubert Ingraham stood by his minister, admitting that he, too, had hopped a ride in the very same helicopter to meet with the Aga Khan and foreign dignitaries.

At the time, a frequent political argument - similar to that of Trudeau - was that there was no other means of accessing the 140-hectare Bell Island, which the Aga Khan reportedly purchased in 2009 for $100 million US.

Another: In the island archipelago of the Bahamas, local politicians ride regularly in private helicopters owned by developers.

Such practices were also once commonplace in Canadian politics, but are now expressly forbidden under federal ethics rules, which is why the flight has fostered such controversy.

Deveaux left Bahamian politics in 2012, after the dredging work on Bell Island had been approved.

Year ago, the Tribune described the helicopter as an AB-139, built by AgustaWestland, the same company that built the Cormorant helicopters the Canadian military uses for search and rescue missions. It seats 13 people and costs upwards of $10 million.

It's not clear if Trudeau rode the same model helicopter.

O'Regan told the National Post earlier this month that he wanted to repay the Aga Khan for the cost of the private flight. His office did not respond to questions this week about whether that had happened, and if so, how much he'd paid.

To be sure, operating an AB-139 is likely no bargain, considering the cost of fuel, maintenance, capital depreciation or lease payments, salaries for pilots and mechanics, hanger space, tools and support contracts.

Privately chartering an AB-139 to travel the 115 kilometres between Nassau and Bell Island could cost between $5,300 and $8,000 per hour, based on estimates provided by private charter services contacted by The Canadian Press.
 
To be ethical means doing the right thing, and avoiding the appearance of impropriety.  If you fail to avoid the appearance of impropriety - irrespective of whether "it" was technically permitted - you've failed to demonstrate good ethical judgement.
 
Brad Sallows said:
To be ethical means doing the right thing, and avoiding the appearance of impropriety.

Quite true.  To be human means to fail at that.  Trudeau did something he shouldn't have - hopefully he learns from that.
 
jmt18325 said:
Quite true.  To be human means to fail at that.  Trudeau did something he shouldn't have - hopefully he learns from that.

That's the problem. He won't learn from this. He will continue to take the clueless elitist approach that he was shown his entire life.
 
jmt18325 said:
I reluctantly have to agree with you up to this point.  Hopefully this year brings something different.

Well, keep your hope in one hand and put your other hand behind your ass and see which one fills up first...  :nod:
 
jmt18325 said:
Quite true.  To be human means to fail at that.  Trudeau did something he shouldn't have - hopefully he learns from that.

I don't want a PM that doesn't already know this was wrong.  This is basic and if he didn't know, that is pretty bad.  However I don't think JT didn't know.  I think he knew and tried to deceive the Canadian public which is much much worse.
 
Good2Golf said:
In the spirit of helping people keep themselves informed......

    :rofl:    Like people here, in a POLITICS thread, are interested in informed opinions -- of their own or others!!
 
[quote author=jmt18325]   it was wrong, but  it isn't like...
[/quote]

Nice attempt to dismiss and minimize wrong doing.
 
QV said:
I don't want a PM that doesn't already know this was wrong.  This is basic and if he didn't know, that is pretty bad.  However I don't think JT didn't know.  I think he knew and tried to deceive the Canadian public which is much much worse.
JT knows a lot of Canadians who voted for him would drink his bath water,  he doesn't care.
 
Once again the family arrogance gene shines through. While neither the holiday nor flight bother me, I am certainly bothered by his refusal/inability to recognize that many do see the holiday and/or flight as inappropriate and the pathetic cover-up.

People make mistakes. Assuming no death, injury, or major property loss, it is not so much the mistakes that count as the way that people deal with their aftermath. And he is not dealing well with this one at all. A little humility and a sincere apology would have helped him greatly, but humility is not his "thing".

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/canadians-split-on-trudeaus-use-of-private-aircraft-while-on-holiday-in-the-bahamas-poll

Trudeau says 'we don’t see an issue' with free travel from the Aga Khan but a slim majority disagree in new poll

David Akin | January 24, 2017 8:28 AM ET

OTTAWA – Canadian public opinion appears to be split as to whether it was appropriate for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his family to accept free travel, over the Christmas holidays, on the private helicopter of the billionaire philanthropist and Trudeau family friend the Aga Khan.

A new poll says 42 per cent agree that the travel was inappropriate and 41 per cent thought it appropriate. About 17 per cent had no opinion. Toronto-based Forum Research, on its own initiative, polled about 1,300 Canadians last weekend on the issue and provided the results exclusively to the National Post.

The National Post was the first to report the details of Trudeau's holiday. He and his family left the country on Boxing Day, returning to Canada a few days after New Year's. The Trudeaus were flown on an RCAF executive jet from Ottawa to Nassau, the capital of the Bahamas.

From Nassau, the Trudeaus were flown to the Aga Khan's private 349-acre island, which is about 115 km from Nassau over open ocean, on the Aga Khan's private helicopter, believed to be an AgustaWestland AW139 that can seat about 13.

The vacation sparked two separate complaints from Conservative MPs to Parliament's Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Mary Dawson. Dawson acted on the complaints, opening an investigation into two separate potential violations of the statute by the prime minister.

The first issue involves a potential conflict of interest in receiving a free vacation from the Aga Khan, the founder and a director of an organization that is a federally registered lobbying organization and, second, for potentially violating a section of the act that prohibits all ministers from using private aircraft. 

It is that last issue that Forum decided to test in a poll, asking 1,332 Canadians in an automated telephone poll conducted Jan. 19-21, "Was it appropriate for Justin Trudeau to accept a flight aboard a private helicopter while on vacation?"

Forum says the results are accurate within 3 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

"Canadians are divided on whether Justin Trudeau's helicopter flight was appropriate. Besides the expected divide among party lines, the sentiment differs by age. It appears that the younger Canadians are less likely to raise issue with the Prime Minister’s vacation activities," said Forum Research President, Lorne Bozinoff.

Trudeau, speaking to reporters earlier this month said, "we don’t see an issue with this."

Perhaps not surprisingly, those who told the pollster they support the Liberals were less likely to think the travel was inappropriate - 55% of those said it was appropriate while 27% of Liberals said it was inappropriate.

In Canada's two most populous provinces, Ontario and Quebec, opinion was almost perfectly split with 42% and 41% respectively giving the trip a thumbs down while 42% and 39% respectively thought it not a problem.

If Dawson rules that Trudeau was in violation of the act because of his decision to use the private aircraft of the Aga Khan, Trudeau faces no penalty other than a notice of violation.

But Trudeau's political opponents would certainly try to exact a stiff political penalty. Trudeau would be the first sitting prime minister to violate a federal law while in office.
 
Hopefully, when Trudeau takes a telephone call from President Trump, Trudeau will be somewhere else than in Quebec otherwise
"But we're in a French province so I will answer in French,"
 
Rifleman62 said:
Hopefully, when Trudeau takes a telephone call from President Trump, Trudeau will be somewhere else than in Quebec otherwise

:rofl:
 
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