Petraeus - Re-visiting NATO ROE in Afghanistan

[Ralph]

They do?  Are they all left-handed now? 

How about this, we let them fight however they wish, but when they choose to, we shoot them in the face.  Repeatedly.  We fight how we fight because it works, not because they choose to go left handed or whatever.  I mean, war is simple: find, fix, strike.  Finding is the most difficult, but once you find him, just keep shooting them in the face, allowing Development and Aid to carry on.

I'm not talking about TiCs. I'm talking about the rest of the day where you don't have PID on an insurgent and are engaging him. That's the greater part of most days, BTW.
Incidentally, all this hand-wringing about all those assets not being there when troops need them when things go kinetic is bull-pucky. I'll try to be as general here, George, so you don't have to delete this post...NOTHING gets in the way of self-defence. Everything else requires you to put your thinking cap on a little tighter. That's all.

 

[SeanNewman]

Sprinting Thistle (PS - I have a 3 year old daughter and get your Tinkerbell reference),

I was on the 08-09 tour and rest assured the tanks were deployed side by side with the infantry coys several times.  They were also free to shoot at whatever required getting shot at.

 

[Kiwi99]

Lets face it, those out there every day hunting the enemy have a vastly different view of the war than those who are not.  Its one thing to look at graphs and charts on effects and plans and options and all kinds of other pretty colours, its another thing to deal with the people and culture everyday.

Teeps 74, yeah, you are reading it right.  But you have to live it to understand it.

It seems to me that there are a few who have grown up under the blanket of political correctness commenting on this thread. 

Ralph, I fought it in 06 and 09.  Guess what, buds, the enemy was the same, we are the ones who had changed, and not for the better.  Political correctness running wars, who would have thunk?

 

[Franko]

I was on the 08-09 tour and rest assured the tanks were deployed side by side with the infantry coys several times.  They were also free to shoot at whatever required getting shot at.

We were on every OP save one...and even then we were only a few minutes away.

Regards

 

[Ralph]

Lets face it, those out there every day hunting the enemy have a vastly different view of the war than those who are not.  Its one thing to look at graphs and charts on effects and plans and options and all kinds of other pretty colours, its another thing to deal with the people and culture everyday.

Teeps 74, yeah, you are reading it right.  But you have to live it to understand it.

It seems to me that there are a few who have grown up under the blanket of political correctness commenting on this thread. 

Ralph, I fought it in 06 and 09.  Guess what, buds, the enemy was the same, we are the ones who had changed, and not for the better.  Political correctness running wars, who would have thunk?

By "political correctness" do you mean the mandate given to us by our higher to stop living in FOBs and start living among the locals, the ANA and AUP, getting to know them all and attempting to help build some sense of trust between all the parties in the short time we have left in Afghanistan?
And by "the same", do you mean them giving up on large-scale SA/RPG ambushes and turning to small cells charged with setting up scores of IEDs and then blending back into the population...because they are part of the population?
Yeah, 2006 was way wicked cooler than 2009 (I was there both times too, buds). Lots and lots of bad guys died back in the day. But that was when they were stupid enough to try and beat us at our own game. They failed. So they changed their tactics, like any insurgency with five brain cells would do. And we changed ours. COIN ops do not yield incredible short-term gains and piles of enemy bodies. They don't result in books being written about day-long gunfights, or sweet videos of airstrikes that show up on YouTube. They require patience and long-term planning at the platoon level unheard to this point in our history. Most importantly, they subject our soldiers to extreme levels of risk where you can go an entire tour without firing your weapon and still have an outstanding chance of becoming a casualty from enemy action. It's almost like the Army expects more from all of us then just memorizing “double tap, dash, down”. Who'd have thunk?

 

[vonGarvin]

And by "the same", do you mean them giving up on large-scale SA/RPG ambushes and turning to small cells charged with setting up scores of IEDs and then blending back into the population...because they are part of the population?

 

[Kiwi99]

Ralph, has living among the populace helped the situation at all?  Record numbers of IED finds, brazen, although fruitless, attacks by the enemy on major installations, casulties from IEDs still being inflicted.  They arent exactly clamouring at the front gate to give info and locations.. Sure, when they want something they wil be there with their hands out, but thats about it...BUDS!

 

[Kiwi99]

Furthermore, buds, we arent exactly beating them at their game this time, eh.  Seems the tables have turned...buds!

 

[SeanNewman]

Of course there are more attacks on us now; there are 10 times more of us in Kandahar than in 2006.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The Buds network is alive and well!

 

[Kiwi99]

Ten X more of us, and we still cant beat them at their own game, interesting!

 

[SeanNewman]

Ten X more of us, and we still cant beat them at their own game, interesting!

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I wouldn't say they hold any ground in the entire province.  They may hold influence in places but there is nowhere they can go where we can't kill them at will. 

Trust me I'm the first guy to admit when we do things wrong, but the tide is changing.

In 1942 after Dieppe it was hard to see that we were winning, too, but the war was shifting overall.

 

[Armymedic]

Re: they fight differently every year.

Common sense says that they would change their tactics year to year towards what works and avoid what didn't because every year we kill the ones who are either a. stupid, or b. make a mistake.

Anyone who does not think that the Taliban and their foreign fighters are not getting better (more effective) every year is denying the logical.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Whoever quoted 'record numbers of IED finds' as evidence that the war is not working totally does not understand the significance of finds versus strikes.

And please stop this 'buds' nonsense, it makes you sounds like a bunch of idiots.

Stop referencing 06,07,08,09. This is 2010, the war has changed, the enemy has changed, and the situation on the ground has changed. And not for the worse either. Unless you can say your feet are on the ground right now you have no idea what is going on.

 

[Kiwi99]

We have more troops on the ground than ever before but we are still playing whack-a-mole.  The only locals we have 'won over' are those lining their pokets.  The tide is not changing in our favour.  Politicians in all NATO countries sold us out long ago.  We lost this war, or whatever you want to call it (I have heard it refered to as the harder side of peacekeeping), the day that OUR Government said we would be out by 2011.  It doesnt matter what ammo we expend, what losses we cause them, and them us.  Call that defeatist talk if you want, but it is fact.

 

[Kiwi99]

We have more troops on the ground than ever before but we are still playing whack-a-mole.  The only locals we have 'won over' are those lining their pokets.  The tide is not changing in our favour.  Politicians in all NATO countries sold us out long ago.  We lost this war, or whatever you want to call it (I have heard it refered to as the harder side of peacekeeping), the day that OUR Government said we would be out by 2011.  It doesnt matter what ammo we expend, what losses we cause them, and them us.  Call that defeatist talk if you want, but it is fact. 

They dont need to hold ground, holding ground doesnt mean squat in all this.  We have all fought for the same piece a couple times each over there, right.  They can go anywhere they want, as soon as they hear a veh or chopper or see NATO troops they drop their weapons and are now farmers.

Its not that we are doing things wrong, not by any stretch,  it is that they are doing them better.

 

[vonGarvin]

Drop the bomb.  I'm sorry, but the people of that part of the world are beyond saving.  By siding with our enemies, they lose.  Start dropping the bombs.

 

[Teeps74]

Lets face it, those out there every day hunting the enemy have a vastly different view of the war than those who are not.  Its one thing to look at graphs and charts on effects and plans and options and all kinds of other pretty colours, its another thing to deal with the people and culture everyday.

Teeps 74, yeah, you are reading it right.  But you have to live it to understand it.

It seems to me that there are a few who have grown up under the blanket of political correctness commenting on this thread. 

Ralph, I fought it in 06 and 09.  Guess what, buds, the enemy was the same, we are the ones who had changed, and not for the better.  Political correctness running wars, who would have thunk?

Well good for you. I am not interested in winning battles. I am interested in winning the war.

 

[Teeps74]

We have more troops on the ground than ever before but we are still playing whack-a-mole.  The only locals we have 'won over' are those lining their pokets.  The tide is not changing in our favour.  Politicians in all NATO countries sold us out long ago.  We lost this war, or whatever you want to call it (I have heard it refered to as the harder side of peacekeeping), the day that OUR Government said we would be out by 2011.  It doesnt matter what ammo we expend, what losses we cause them, and them us.  Call that defeatist talk if you want, but it is fact. 

They dont need to hold ground, holding ground doesnt mean squat in all this.  We have all fought for the same piece a couple times each over there, right.  They can go anywhere they want, as soon as they hear a veh or chopper or see NATO troops they drop their weapons and are now farmers.

Its not that we are doing things wrong, not by any stretch,  it is that they are doing them better.

Ever stop to think that the COG is wrong? Land is useless in this day and age... Fighting over it just wastes time money and effort.

What else could we possibly fight over?

I look at history and Malaysia...

 

[Altair]

Drop the bomb.  I'm sorry, but the people of that part of the world are beyond saving.  By siding with our enemies, they lose.  Start dropping the bombs.

that worked so well for the soviets, eh?