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Petraeus - Re-visiting NATO ROE in Afghanistan

12 April 1963
29 August 1964
05 May 1966
24 June 1970


Just off the top of my head.

Canadians are wonderfully forgetful when it comes to terrorism at home.
 
Shortly after 9/11 we knew this would be a long fight.  We knew Afghanistan was going to be the cornerstone where the West's dedication to

Sometime after that the Canadian (and American and British et. al.) public got off that train and went to the mall.

 
Kevin

well put. Even Old Man Turtle would agree.  The question is, how do we get them back on the bus.

Going  back to the article about the US troops in the FOB getting mortared and not being allowed to fire back, even though they had PID. Again, when will troops say that if they dont have the support, they aint going?  Its not an unrealistic possibility. 

Charges and court martials may not be the answer here.  Nor accusations of cowardice.  With restrictions being placed more frequently than not, what are the troops to think?

 
Apollo Diomedes said:
I'm not talking about  Afghan Hillbillies attacking the ol US but Afghanistan being used as a staging ground, training camp, recruiting shop.  With no NATO presence there it would be like wonderland for terrorists of all shapes sizes and capabilities.  Hope I'm wrong, figure we'll see in a few years.

Okay, but terrorists use the USA (9/11) and Canada (Ottawa 18) as staging grounds, training camps and recruiting shops.  Is preventing a few dusty tents and an obstacle course from being set up in Tarnak Farms really an effective counter-terrorism strategy?
 
For everything that has been said, most I can understand, some I sympathize with, but, having lived through watching the US make noise about training up the Vietnamese Army to handle their own security, then beetling out of there as fast as they could throwing $$ at any perceived problem....then watching the fall of Saigon shortly thereafter....I'm not hopeful.

The same high sounding praises are being paid to the ANA, ANP, etc, the billions are rolling in, but you know what.....nothing is different...they're in over their heads, the country is not supporting them, the US people are not supporting them, their allies are crapping out.....they just want it to get to a stage where they can wash their hands of it and get out....

Now having said all that, let it be understood that I am talking about the politicians....not the forces. They obey their orders, do their job magnificently, and bear no fault in this......my  :2c:
 
This is a difficult balancing act.  We know that civilian casualties create new insurgents.  We also know that an incompetant, incapable or impotent military force is (or will quickly become) irrelevant.  As such, if we are seen to carry but never wield the "big stick" then we will become irrelevant and lose the war.  If we swing the big stick a few times too many (or too hard) then we will protract or lose the war ... and the more times we protract the war the greater our chances of losing.

If we are going to win, we must find the right balance of agressive use of force and restraint.  That right balance is going to change with time, circumstances and location.  In vast areas of operation where COs don't have the capacity to establish relations with each communicty, the OC, with his supporting FOO/FAC, becomes the best qualified person to assess the weapons effects, collateral risks, threat, etc, etc.  That OC, still with his supporting FOO/FAC, becomes the best person to decide when and where the hammer should be dropped - he will also be the person to clean-up the knock-on results of collateral damage & civilian casualties.

As ref from another thread:
MarkOttawa said:
As for civilian deaths:

Civilian Casualties Create New Enemies, Study Confirms
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/07/civilian-casualties-create-new-enemies-study-confirms/

Yes, we needed economists to tell us this. A new working paper 
http://papers.nber.org/papers/w16152#fromrss
published by the National Bureau of Economic Research finds “strong evidence for a revenge effect” when examining the relationship between civilian casualties caused by the U.S.-led military coalition in Afghanistan and radicalization after such incidents occur. The paper even estimates of how many insurgent attacks to expect after each civilian death. Those findings, however intuitive, might resolve an internal military debate about the counter-productivity of civilian casualties — and possibly fuel calls for withdrawal.

“When ISAF units kill civilians,” the research team finds, referring to the U.S.-led coalition in Afghanistan, “this increases the number of willing combatants, leading to an increase in insurgent attacks.” According to their model, every innocent civilian killed by ISAF predicts an “additional 0.03 attacks per 1,000 population in the next 6-week period.” In a district of 83,000 people, then, the average of two civilian casualties killed in ISAF-initiated military action leads to six additional insurgent attacks in the following six weeks.

The team doesn’t examine the effect of CIA drone strikes in neighboring Pakistan, the subject of fierce debate concerning both the level of civilian deaths the strikes generate and their radicalizing effect.

A team of four economists — Stanford’s Luke N. Condra and Joseph H. Felter, the London School of Economics’ Radha K. Iyengar, and Princeton’s Jacob N. Shapiro — used the International Security Assistance Force’s own civilian-casualty data to reach their conclusions, breaking it down by district to examine further violence in the area in which civilians died. They examined the effect of over 4000 civilian deaths from January 2009 to March 2010 by looking at the sometimes-lagging indications of reprisal attacks in the same areas. To be clear, the team’s research is inferential, creating a statistical model to examine spikes in violence following civilian-casualty incidents, rather than interviewing insurgents as to their specific motivations.

But in their study, the researchers found that there’s a greater spike in violence after ISAF-caused civilian deaths than after insurgent-caused ones. “An incident which results in 10 civilian casualties will generate about 1 additional IED attack in the following 2 months,” the researchers write. “The effect for insurgents is much weaker and not jointly significant.”

In other words, even if the insurgents possess a “total disregard for human life and the Afghan people,” as an ISAF press release reacting to this weekend’s insurgent bombings in Herat put it, Afghans effectively would rather be killed by other Afghans than foreigners.

That’s not all. The researchers found that ISAF-caused civilian casualties corollate with long-term radicalization in Afghanistan. Plotting reprisal incidents of violence in areas where civilians died at coalition hands, the data showed that “that the Coalition effect is enduring, peaking 16 weeks after the event. This confirms the intuition that civilian casualties by ISAF forces predict greater violence through a long-run effect.” That’s consistent with intuitions that civilian casualties “are affecting future violence through increased recruitment into insurgent groups,” although they find no direct evidence for such a thing. Interestingly, the researchers found the opposite to be the case in Iraq: U.S.-caused civilian casualties are more likely to cause short-term retaliatory spikes than they are violence over the long term. (Yet.)...

Via Milnews.ca:
http://milnewstbay.pbworks.com/CANinKandahar

Mark
Ottawa
 
Just boot the Karzai crime family.  Put the district leader of the Dand district in charge.  Boom, you're on your way!
 
Kiwi99 said:
The question is, how do we get them back on the bus.

A staggering domestic death toll.  The sheeple just don't get it.  Until they hurt, nothing is going to change.  And our enemies know it, thus they will keep things nice and genial.
Or at least until they feel they are assured of victory...
 
zipperhead_cop said:
A staggering domestic death toll.  The sheeple just don't get it.  Until they hurt, nothing is going to change.  And our enemies know it, thus they will keep things nice and genial.
Or at least until they feel they are assured of victory...

Sadly, ZHC, I fear that you are absolutely correct.  :(

G2G
 
Latest:

Petraeus establishes new rules of conduct for Western forces in Afghanistan
Directive asserts troops' right to defend themselves but calls for continued efforts to safeguard Afghan civilian lives.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-afghan-combat-rules-20100804,0,5192303.story

Reporting from Kabul, Afghanistan —

The new American commander of Western forces in Afghanistan has issued a directive asserting troops' right to defend themselves, but also calling on them to continue efforts to safeguard Afghan civilian lives, military officials said Wednesday.

Army Gen. David H. Petraeus' tactical directive, his first since assuming command last month, appears aimed at countering some grumbling within the ranks that Western forces' hands are tied in confrontations with insurgents because of battlefield rules handed down last year by his predecessor, Army Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal.

It is a delicate balance to strike, because civilian casualties are one of the most inflammatory issues between North Atlantic Treaty Organization forces and the government of Afghan President Hamid Karzai.

The proportion of civilian deaths attributed to Western troops has declined significantly since last summer's directive from McChrystal. In a departure from previous practice, he ordered that airstrikes and artillery not be used if civilians might be present, unless troops are in imminent danger of being overrun.

Petraeus' directive, which supersedes McChrystal's, is classified, but parts of it were made public Wednesday.

U.S. military officials speaking on condition of anonymity said the new version includes some refinements to guidelines on use of aerial bombardment and artillery fire, and spells out more instances in which such methods should not be used.

However, the directive is also meant to address what those officials described as a "misperception" among some junior field commanders that airstrikes and artillery — two of the international forces' main battlefield advantages against the insurgents — were all but forbidden...

Mark
Ottawa
 
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