PERs : All issues questions...2003-2019

[danchapps]

Here's my 2 cents, being a "young pup" with 16 months left in my initial contract.

There are some days that I love my job, but those days are few and far between. I joined to be a supply tech, and up until Ex Desert Ram, I had done more supply work before my 3's than I did in the 8 months after my 3's. I was the top student in my class, yet some members of my CoC don't trust that I know how to do my job. This is because on a regular basis they can't be bothered to get out from behind their desk to watch me do my job. And when they do they micro-manage the job that I am doing, causing the job to be done wrong. Or other members spending more time going over the plan of what they want me to do instead of just letting me DO the job that I was trained to do. "Dude, you aren't doing it the way I wanted you to, do it the way I want it done." To which I reply, "I don't think it really matters how the hell it gets done, as long as it does. My way is a more efficient way, it's already in my head, piss off and let me work." This usually winds up causing the Cpl to pull the rest of the section from their jobs, so we can spend ANOTHER 30 minutes going over the same thing we talked about 20 minutes prior, having him moan and grumble about how the job is taking too long, and nothing is getting done.

As well, with my unit, getting qualifications for anything is like pulling teeth. I've had to fight tooth and nail, just to get basic qual's like MLVW and a supply must, Forklift! I've been in unit since July last year, I just got the qualification for RTFL last week. A little slow on the trigger you think?

Like I said, I have 16 months left, that gives my CoC about 4 months before they offer me a new contract. That is 4 months for my CoC to un-f*** themselves, or else I'm going to a major defense contractor (that I have a guaranteed job with as a supply tech IF I decide to leave the CF), where my skills will be better used, and more appreciated. Too much BS makes people want to leave the CF.

End of rant.

 

[chris_log]

From reply number 26.... until here. Read it, and then imagine it magnified across the army. Obsession with paperwork, indeed.

I know that where I am right now, and Towards_the_Gap might know about this, there are a TON of troops just waiting out their 5 year stint, and chomping at the bit to get out. And it all has to do with doing Dog and Pony shows, and sitting around when we could be training, and being told we 're ALL busy ... except, no, the MCpls are all too busy to "supervise." So training goes out the window. However, the RSM, a true bureaucrat if I've ever seen one, insists we stay until exactly 4pm everyday, whether there's work for us to do or not. Guys go stir-crazy sitting on there asses.

We get told to "look busy, the Sgt-Major is coming down." So we count a triwall of supplies we have for a deployment that never happened, and we count it 3 times in a row until we find out he isn't coming. Or we take 2 days longer than we need to, to build something so that the Brigade commander can come down and see us in action. It's stupid, and we know it, and our superiors seem think it's just the "nature of the beast" (a phrase I'm sick of hearing as an excuse) when we all know its blatant ball-licking. None of us joined the army for that.

Guys join the army to do "army-stuff" take that away from them, and they'll leave.

What unit is this happening at, 'cause I sure ain't seeing it. In fact, I get to see people releasing because the op tempo is way too high. No one where I am is releasing out of being bored, thats for sure.

As to the point at hand, we're red-penning ourselves to death. My personal opinion is that if a memo is in the right format, gets the point across quickly and clearly then its good to go. Regrettebly, I seem to be the only one who thinks that.

As well, with my unit, getting qualifications for anything is like pulling teeth. I've had to fight tooth and nail, just to get basic qual's like MLVW and a supply must, Forklift! I've been in unit since July last year, I just got the qualification for RTFL last week. A little slow on the trigger you think?

The reasons you aren't getting courses stems from a complete and utter lack of instructors and functioning equipment (stemming from a lack of pers to fix them). This will be made only worse by the up and coming Army 2011 re-org where the hoo-rah gunslingers and such, with their utter lack of CSS understanding, will cut even more positions. If you think its hard getting an MLVW crse now, wait until we're down another 60 MSE Ops.

 

[danchapps]

Working in a POL section, being nominated for a HAZMat course, then being told "No, you aren't going because nobody is to leave the ex for a course."

Also, the vehicles were an example. I know there is a lack of instructors and vehicles. I asked one of the instructors while in Suffield "What would it take to get some of the heavy equipment written off?" Having previously explained that I used to work in construction before joining the CF, and being raised with all of the "toys" in the yard, so to speak. His answer, never, unless I worked in Major Equipment. The fact that I have hundreds of hours in machines means squat. So when I'm forced to shovel out the POL compound by hand because "POL isn't a priority", I get a bit moody, because it would have been done in no time flat if they'd let me use the machine.

Also, I just barely got on the ML course that I was on, partly because one of my platoon mates didn't want the course (doesn't feel comfortable backing up bigger vehicles), and partly because one of the instructors went to bat for me. No, not my direct CoC, but a friend, who happened to be instructing. He was livid I was't on the course, because I had been in possession of a temp for 3 months, and I was always the last one out from under the trucks during stables. Even in -30 temperatures. It's always a fight for me to get anything done, because people can't be bothered to stick up for their troops, or let the troops do what they need to do to get things done.

 

[chris_log]

Working in a POL section, being nominated for a HAZMat course, then being told "No, you aren't going because nobody is to leave the ex for a course."

That is, admittedly, odd.

Also, the vehicles were an example. I know there is a lack of instructors and vehicles. I asked one of the instructors while in Suffield "What would it take to get some of the heavy equipment written off?" Having previously explained that I used to work in construction before joining the CF, and being raised with all of the "toys" in the yard, so to speak. His answer, never, unless I worked in Major Equipment. The fact that I have hundreds of hours in machines means squat. So when I'm forced to shovel out the POL compound by hand because "POL isn't a priority", I get a bit moody, because it would have been done in no time flat if they'd let me use the machine.

Agaim, crappy but there IS a major shortage of functionable gear (remember the NSE and other TF 3-09 types took most of it, broke most of it, and then took what was left).

Also, I just barely got on the ML course that I was on, partly because one of my platoon mates didn't want the course (doesn't feel comfortable backing up bigger vehicles), and partly because one of the instructors went to bat for me. No, not my direct CoC, but a friend, who happened to be instructing. He was livid I was't on the course, because I had been in possession of a temp for 3 months, and I was always the last one out from under the trucks during stables. Even in -30 temperatures. It's always a fight for me to get anything done, because people can't be bothered to stick up for their troops, or let the troops do what they need to do to get things done.

Again, odd. However, keep in mind there's often more at play then what one sees out on the floor (I know that sounds somewhat pretentious, but it's not supposed to be). Trust me, courses usually fill up pretty quick and some, like the MLVW crse, don't run very often (there are other more pressing priorities).

Of course, issues with WHO get loaded on courses rest with your company's training staff and immediate CoC. If you keep asking for a course and don't get course loaded, then maybe your section commander isn't doing his/her job.

 

[danchapps]

Of course, issues with WHO get loaded on courses rest with your company's training staff and immediate CoC. If you keep asking for a course and don't get course loaded, then maybe your section commander isn't doing his/her job.

That's what I'm thinking. Like I said, it helps if the CoC backs up the troops. In my case, my supervisor seems to act like a yes man. Yes to those above him, not so much to us below him. I'm hoping for a switch in the next slave trade, but these are the sort of issues that cause us young folk to think about leaving.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Also, the vehicles were an example. I know there is a lack of instructors and vehicles. I asked one of the instructors while in Suffield "What would it take to get some of the heavy equipment written off?" Having previously explained that I used to work in construction before joining the CF, and being raised with all of the "toys" in the yard, so to speak. His answer, never, unless I worked in Major Equipment. The fact that I have hundreds of hours in machines means squat. So when I'm forced to shovel out the POL compound by hand because "POL isn't a priority", I get a bit moody, because it would have been done in no time flat if they'd let me use the machine.

You also could have wondered over to the Engineer Heavy E guys and asked I'm sure they would have helped you out.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Why does this Article just remind me of a good comedy, that all the retirees were hinting at.....

Morale sucking "managers" causing increased releases within military documentary

dileas

tess

 

[X-mo-1979]

Oh my god.I hadn't seen that before!
That is priceless!I needed a good laugh!

Unfortunately the Canadian army would march till 16h30,because something might "come up".Then let you go at 16h00,letting you go"early".

 

[mummiebear5]

I am only a civilian admin working in Supply, but after the week I have had can we say "frustrated"?

 

[armyvern]

I am only a civilian admin working in Supply, but after the week I have had can we say "frustrated"?

Seems to be the norm these days the past couple of years.

6 message demands to SMs this week, all with either "No national stock," "Contract Expired (it's in the MERX)," or "What is left in the depots is restricted to Ops, so you can't have any.

The last one would be modular. Modular that we need here for tent cities so that all that influx of increased Army recruiting can actually be housed with at least something over their heads ... but no.

I know that NDHQ/SMs suffered severly during our past cut-backs, and that the CF has grown it's field force in a huge way over the past few years with no corresponding growth to the purple tail (our PML remains at year 2000 level - not a single posn more has been added).

But hell, when there's no one in NDHQ to actually ensure contracts get renewed, to action demands, to action QD msgs, or to actually "read & answer" emails ... the Supply system quickly breaks down; we call it the non-Supply system.

Seems every second contract that is nationally managed/funded is expired. What the fuck is up with that Ottawa? Hire more contractors if you have to, but do something!!  There's no vehicles for MSE courses, because there's NO spare parts in the CFSS to fix them with --- and even when there are, the parts are restricted to "Overseas operational use only", and when they aren't there's no damn SM (or contractor) in place to actually action them.

I've already predicted that the crash heard accross the nation will occur pre-Aug ... this year. When all those candidates show up and someone "just" figures out that they'll have no place to stay, no kit to wear, and that, in any case, there's not enough instructors or tail to support them. It may occur as soon as Monday --- we ran out of large size BEWs just this past Wednesday). RULE #1 in Gagetown: No BEWs ... No passing Shirley Road. In other words = NO FIELD TRG. We haven't had smalls in a month. This has all been recorded and noted in our Logreps (by me!) No National Stock. None exist to demand in the system. Now how is CTC going to get those LFDTS course candidates out into the trg area here? Overrule a "No BEWs, No Trg Area" rule that was put in place due a "safety" ruling as the result of a workplace injury? (Yeah, loss of an eye by one of the troops in the field - preventable inury had BEWs been on). And, I can assure you - we do have troops to whom we could not issue BEWs scheduled to enter the trg area Monday; I know this because the CTC emails started flying about it on Friday - despite the fact it's been in Logreps for a month now. Do people actually read those things or am I just wasting my time writing them up?

Because it's not like any instructors will actually take a posting to this place now ... what with losing all that money every month because they'll have to give up their field duty allowance, yet actually spend more time in the field. And the career managers will bend over backwards then NOT to post them here because then the poor soul would get out and we can't have that and instructors that have been "stuck" here for 6 years trying to get out of here will have to stay another year again ... or perhaps they just might get out instead. Someone really, really needs to shake out the big tree that is the CF in a big way.

Molly-coddling pers who don't want to be posted on one end ... is causing low morale and releases at the other end because those pers then can't get out of these shitty spots. EVERYONE should get to take their turn - whether they like it or not. Career Managers need to get back to the business of posting people - not baby-sitting them. Supervisors (all levels) need to get back to supervising not micro-managing.

SMs need to get back to the job of ordering/contracting and actually responding to emails. I do get 'read' receipts (usually timed about 15 mintues after I press send ... which I then include "print screens" of when I fire it up to the next level because they just haven't bothered to respond (and yes, THEY) even when the demand is a priority demand and after 5 or 6 hasteners for a response (for which I also have all the read receipts) ...

You know what?

"It's fucking embarassing to be a Supply tech these days." ArmyVern 06 Jun 2009 - 0626hrs

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Dog - I am away in gagetown until the end of this month, but trust me, nothing used to give me more pleasure than to come back to work after lunch at 1, do a task until 2, and come back to the breezeway to await further orders. Walk up to the tp office, ask 'anything going on?' have a certain WO say, umm, don't know, then go back to his computer. I would then walk back down to the breezeway and tell the guys to go home, go to the gym, or go for a run. Moment later:

WO:'where's all the troops?'
Me: ' I sent them home'
WO:'Why did you do that?'
Me:'there's nothing for them to do, I told them to go to the gym or for a run'
WO: 'but something might come up!!'
Me:'It's 3:00, do you really think anything will come up that can't be fixed tomorrow at 7:30??'
WO:'..........'
Me:'right I'm off'
WO: 'well don't do it again'
Me:'Gotcha'

However I've heard of the insanely stupid rules put in place by the Really Scary Man. Allocated times for smoke breaks during the day? I can't wait to go back.

This is the kind of crap that pushes dudes out the door, as Dog said.

I only wish I could teach every stupid pencil neck who comes up with crap like that, what I was taught in the British Army. It's called the service test question, and initially it was used to judge the severity of a soldiers misconduct.
It went 'Did the actions of the individual adversely affect the operational effectiveness of the Army?' If the question was no, minor discipline, or none at all (ie get a case of beer for the troop at the next beer call). If yes, throw the book at him.

It can easily be modified to read: 'Does this adversely affect the operational effectiveness of the Army (CF sorry)?'

IE. does not having periods in between initials adversely affect the operational effectiveness of the Army?

NO, so bore off.

I will agree however with wonderbreads post a few back, there is definitely a time and place for all t's crossed and i's dotted, and supply and maintenance is one of them. In my world (043), my work is HIGHLY dependant on all manner of machines and tools, and if they are not taken care of, I am ineffective. Paperwork and administration is not one of them however, especially at section/troop level. There should be no need for the amount of paperwork we see.


*This has to be one of the more enjoyable threads so far in my time here at army.ca

 

[aesop081]

To which I reply, "I don't think it really matters how the hell it gets done, as long as it does. My way is a more efficient way, it's already in my head, piss off and let me work."

You then are lucky to have a job where "how" doesnt matter much. I dont have that luxury. Here "how" matters because doing it any other way gets people killed. You may not see it right now but i do caution you that , should you stay in the CF, you will be employed in areas of the military not directly related to your MOC and that " right time, right place for eveything" is something to remember.

Furthermore, your "more effecient way" may not always be within the regulations and you may not be aware of this so telling your supervisor to "piss off and let me work" may not always be the right option.

 

[danchapps]

Furthermore, your "more effecient way" may not always be within the regulations and you may not be aware of this so telling your supervisor to "piss off and let me work" may not always be the right option.

My more efficient way involves being able to access the drums of stock in a reasonable manner. One would imagine that if all of the drums of DEX III are right next to each other, the 15w40 next to each other and so on, as compared to "Just put all of the stuff that isn't being tested over there" in no particular order, I think my efficiencies are well within regulations.

As for me telling my Cpl to piss off, there are many times I've done this. This is because he spends more time pulling people off of their tasks to have mini-o groups throughout the day. Or he'll be meaning to talk for 30 seconds, when 30 minutes of wasted time go by I tell him to take a hike. Unlike some, I'm here to do a job. If they don't want me to do my job, then yeah, I'm going to want to get out.

As for Vern, if you are wanting supply techs that don't mind going to Gagetown, you know one that doesn't mind, just ask the CM to have me posted

 

[Sub_Guy]

Piss off and let me do it my way!  Sounds like a plan, I am fairly certain if I said that to one of my Sgt's, I would be sure to get a sono across the head.

As for micro-managing and morale killing, its out there, and it's like a bad case of crabs.  It spreads like mad.  I have had to type memos requesting to play hockey (ship's team), jog into work (back in the days when the Navy made you do this, I then had to carry my chit with me so I could present it to anyone who challenged me) and cancel leave.  I have had the pleasure of working for a fella who insisted that every request form be accompanied with a memo.

Then to have memos come back to you because of spacing and format!  It could take a week to get it in.

That's just my  :2c:

 

[Monsoon]

However I've heard of the insanely stupid rules put in place by the Really Scary Man. Allocated times for smoke breaks during the day? I can't wait to go back.

This is the kind of crap that pushes dudes out the door, as Dog said.

Gosh! Having to stay at work until 4 or 5pm even though things are apparently quiet at 2pm? Mandated break times? Anyone quitting the CF because of this is going to be in for a rude awakening in the private sector, I can tell you.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Yeah, and all that extra money they force on you for working after hours and weekends are another nasty shock when you get out, too.

 

[Monsoon]

Yeah, and all that extra money they force on you for working after hours and weekends are another nasty shock when you get out, too.

Unless your employer is following the overtime laws: http://www.workplace.ca/laws/employ_standard_on.html

Overtime only gets paid in Ontario when you work over 44 hours a week or on stat days. Working on weekends or after hours (under 44 hours) is called "having a job". Unless you work at GM or Chrysler, but...

 

[Kat Stevens]

Oh, so THAT'S how overtime works, thanks awfully for the lesson. I happen to have one of those "job" thingies you seem to think are such hardship compared to the idle army life.  When I'm on an install job, I work an average 12 hour day, 6 day week, and make considerably more than my 40 hour week in the shop.  Other than FOA, I never made an extra dime running up and down combat team traces in Wainwright and Suffield for 48-72 hours continuously sitting in an AVLB.  Don't bang on like the army guys have it so good compared to us poor misused working class dogs, please.

 

[mariomike]

Overtime only gets paid in Ontario when you work over 44 hours a week or on stat days. Working on weekends or after hours (under 44 hours) is called "having a job". Unless you work at GM or Chrysler, but...

I retired from the City of Toronto one week ago. It was always a 40 week. There's money to be made. One of our paramedics made $221,447.12 in 2008.  I know him well. He's a hard worker.
I'm not talking out of school. It's a matter of public record:
http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/publications/salarydisclosure/2009/munic09.html
But, money isn't everything. Job satisfaction, in my opinion, is more important. I have no regrets.

 

[Monsoon]

I happen to have one of those "job" thingies you seem to think are such hardship compared to the idle army life.

Groan! I'm happily employed in the "idle army life" at the moment, and left a civie job (and its "morale sucking managers" and work-to rule mentality) to come back to it. I'm not saying flexibility is bad, but when people start saying that spending upwards of 37.5 hours a week on the job is an unbearable imposition on their quality of life, I have to roll my eyes.

When I'm on an install job, I work an average 12 hour day, 6 day week, and make considerably more than my 40 hour week in the shop.

Well yeah - because you worked 76 hours in a week you got paid overtime.

Other than FOA, I never made an extra dime running up and down combat team traces in Wainwright and Suffield for 48-72 hours continuously sitting in an AVLB. 

We also get 4-5 weeks vacation, plus Christmas leave and generous stats, and a very good salary (IMHO). And I think you'll agree that 72 hour weeks is by no means the career norm in the CF - it represents a pretty selective slice of the posting pie.

I think the "morale-sucking managers" line has more to do with people feeling like they can't work as meaningfully as they'd like (re-drafting memos, etc), not that they're being asked to stay at work until (gasp) 4pm.

Anyhoo, all that to say that the grass is always greener. Having made that unpopular observation, I shall now bow out.