PERs : All issues questions...2003-2019

[armyvern]

Having spoken many junior NCOs who are exiting the forces, taking hard won experience from Afghanistan with them, they almost universally have told me that they are leaving because of the garrison bureaucrats. A minority of senior NCOs who display bad or non-existent leadership, the obsession over petty office politics and 'busy work' over combat readiness and realistic theatre specific training has left a lot of people bitter and disillusioned. It doesn’t take many garrison bureaucrats like this for a poisonous work environment that leaves a large number of people angry, frustrated and wondering if they could be doing something else with their time.

It certainly doesn't help either that around here ... you can forecast to your troops in February that their long weekends of the upcoming summer will be busily taken up performing "dawg & pony" shows and photo ops everywhere except where their families are. And so, with last week's O Gp - it has come to pass for people already doing overtime just to get their jobs done. Sigh.

 

[armyvern]

Agreed Jammer, and in other ways that some might not realise.

For an NCO, it is hard to rationalise things when you go from calling in 9 liners/contact reports as fellow troops are fighting, to being faced with someone rejecting a leave pass because you didn't put periods in between their intials. That is my point, the petty official dom that has spread like a virus throughout the CF.

Ahhh, a soldier of the generation who actually learned "typing" on a keyboard vice a typewriter. A keyboard where the rule is "NO periods between initials and only ONE space after a period ending a sentence." Anything else is from the days of a typewriter.

 

[Occam]

Ahhh, a soldier of the generation who actually learned "typing" on a keyboard vice a typewriter. A keyboard where the rule is "NO periods between initials and only ONE space after a period ending a sentence." Anything else is from the days of a typewriter.

The problem is that there are multiple style guides which now conflict with each other.

The webpage for the now-obsolete Staff and Writing Procedures for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces refers to suggests The Canadian Style on the PWGSC website.  Many units are still using a renamed-but-still-the-same-document version of the Staff and Writing Procedures.  Renaming it must magically render it an effective document.  :

For what it's worth, The Canadian Style says to put periods after initials, but one space after a period ending a sentence.  I put two spaces because I learned how to type on a Mod 28 teletype and it's burned into my skull.

This whole nonsense of bouncing back memos for periods/no periods after initials in a signature block is pure malarkey.  I continue to be a thorn in the side of my CoC because I don't police niggly little things like that in my subordinates' memos - because there is no style guide which has been declared the authoritative source for military writing in the CF.  When one is issued, I'll be happy to comply with it.

 

[Michael OLeary]

We used to have a single staff writing manual, it was relatively easy to follow and everyone used the same standard.  Those were also the days when, in most units, only half a dozen people were even authorized to send correspondence out side a unit.

STAFF AND WRITING PROCEDURES FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE AND THE CANADIAN FORCES (Note the last revision date.)

Then came WANs and e-mail and loss of control when the entire DND IT world decided that supporting standard formats wasn't worth their time. When you load a single copy of MS Word into the DWAN that's going to be downloaded into every DND computer, there's no logical reason why standard formats couldn't be "fixed" to match those the Forces had been using for over a century already.

And with computers came the proliferation of locally produced orders, instructions and directives.  We used to manage pers with two documents; QR&Os and CFAOS, no Land Force instructions, no Area directives, no special Base level requirements like a different BPSO interview request at every base.  And we got along pretty well with that comparatively thin slice of admin burden over getting the job done.  (Some still complained that it was too much and too rigorous.) Computerization gave all those command layers the local tools which enabled them to generate masses of paper orders, instructions and directives, and the work requirements that went with them for their subordinate HQs and units. Most of those "new" layers of admin direction only reiterated the main CF documents, except where they were tweaked so that finding the special local requirement became a time consuming "where's Waldo" mission.

Whatever the hypothetical increase in productivity was that computers were supposed to create, we have effectively canceled it by failing to regulate the growth of additional labour which came about as a result of the misapplication of the "tool." Computers aren't the evil component in this system, but we failed in the implementation and now we're paying for it.

 

[Occam]

We used to have a single staff writing manual, it was relatively easy to follow and everyone used the same standard.  Those were also the days when, in most units, only half a dozen people were even authorized to send correspondence out side a unit.

STAFF AND WRITING PROCEDURES FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE AND THE CANADIAN FORCES (Note the last revision date.)

There's part of the problem - units would download copies of a publication, publish it locally - and then the original pub would become superceded/cancelled and the unit would never know about it, as they have their own copy.  Here's the homepage for  CFP121

Then came WANs and e-mail and loss of control when the entire DND IT world decided that supporting standard formats wasn't worth their time. When you load a single copy of MS Word into the DWAN that's going to be downloaded into every DND computer, there's no logical reason why standard formats couldn't be "fixed" to match those the Forces had been using for over a century already.

Oh, the ability is still there - individual sites have to load the templates onto a common drive in order for you to have access to the "memorandum template", for example.  If you don't have it on your PC via Word, then it's simply because nobody has asked your local help desk to implement it.  I have no idea if the templates are current, or what style guide was used to create them, though - that would involve someone being put in charge of the templates on a national level, who would update them and distribute to all the sites.  I ain't doing it...  ;D

And with computers came the proliferation of locally produced orders, instructions and directives.  We used to manage pers with two documents; QR&Os and CFAOS, no Land Force instructions, no Area directives, no special Base level requirements like a different BPSO interview request at every base.  And we got along pretty well with that comparatively thin slice of admin burden over getting the job done.  (Some still complained that it was too much and too rigorous.) Computerization gave all those command layers the local tools which enabled them to generate masses of paper orders, instructions and directives, and the work requirements that went with them for their subordinate HQs and units. Most of those "new" layers of admin direction only reiterated the main CF documents, except where they were tweaked so that finding the special local requirement became a time consuming "where's Waldo" mission.

Whatever the hypothetical increase in productivity was that computers were supposed to create, we have effectively canceled it by failing to regulate the growth of additional labour which came about as a result of the misapplication of the "tool." Computers aren't the evil component in this system, but we failed in the implementation and now we're paying for it.

I agree totally.  For example, we have CFPAS, which contains official CFPAS guidance on the PER/PDR process.  We have annual Command-issued "lessons learned" messages, issuing guidance from the individual commands.  We have Base/Wing messages, again giving guidance on the process.  And as if that wasn't enough, units always generate their own guidance for the PER/PDR process.  For a system that's supposed to be standard across the board, why does everyone and their dog feel the need to provide their own personal interpretation of the CFPAS guidance??  So much for comparing apples to apples... 

 

[Jammer]

Power trip...

 

[Michael OLeary]

Power trip...

That's an over-simplification.  No doubt applicable in some cases, but the broader issue is the completely unregulated growth of administrative documents and resulting requirements at every command level in the past 10-15 years.  Much of it might have been avoided if a lot of commanders and senior staff had actually been working to create efficient systems rather than measuring staff work product by weight of paper produced.

 

[dapaterson]

I agree totally.  For example, we have CFPAS, which contains official CFPAS guidance on the PER/PDR process.  We have annual Command-issued "lessons learned" messages, issuing guidance from the individual commands.  We have Base/Wing messages, again giving guidance on the process.  And as if that wasn't enough, units always generate their own guidance for the PER/PDR process.  For a system that's supposed to be standard across the board, why does everyone and their dog feel the need to provide their own personal interpretation of the CFPAS guidance??  So much for comparing apples to apples... 

But if I don't issue my own PER direction, how can I get PER points for written comunication?  Or leading change?  We've built perverse incentives into the system, and reap what we have sown.


"Any darn fool can make something complex; it takes a genius to make things simple" - Pete Seeger.

 

[Jammer]

Maybe,
I'm dealing with an two issues now with me in the middle...new bosses trying to see who the Alpha male is.

 

[Rifleman62]

Call it administration masturbation. We beat our selves to death with paperwork.

My son-in-law, on his Afghanistan tour, was out in an Allied FOB for three months. The PDR/PERs went back and forth by resupply helicopter with red marks from a Francophone Capt whose English was very difficult to understand (so I was told). My son-in-law even had to write a couple of PER's "for practice" on people he did not know, including a person of the same rank. How do I know?? Because I assisted him to write the PERs. I am (was) very experienced at writting/reviewing Reg F PERs. Several of the PERs I assisted with were returned with snide remarks and red pencil. I have the PDF to prove it. On top of that, the PDR/PER manual was not being followed. How's that for morale. This went on in an operational theatre.

In the meantime, the Pl WO did not think it was important to send out the mail/care packages out regularily.

 

[armyvern]

I agree totally.  For example, we have CFPAS, which contains official CFPAS guidance on the PER/PDR process.  We have annual Command-issued "lessons learned" messages, issuing guidance from the individual commands.  We have Base/Wing messages, again giving guidance on the process.  And as if that wasn't enough, units always generate their own guidance for the PER/PDR process.  For a system that's supposed to be standard across the board, why does everyone and their dog feel the need to provide their own personal interpretation of the CFPAS guidance??  So much for comparing apples to apples... 

Agreed 200% !!

Heard in this Coy the 1st week of May coming from all the Pl WOs: "When are we getting the PERs back that we submitted the last week of February? We need to get them out to the members, signed, and in to NDHQ 4 weeks from now?" (And, to clarify the "Coy" comment - I can only say what our Coy's Pl WOs were asking again & again, but this was NOT a Coy related issue - the PERs were being held at a higher level than that).

2nd Week of May "Where are all the PERs that you've had ... 3 weeks from now?"

3rd week of May: "Where are all the PERs that you've had ... 2 weeks from now?"

4th week of May: "Where are all the PERs that you've had ...they are due IN NDHQ on Monday!"

30th May (Friday!!) comes the response:  "Pl WOs, please come get your pers PERs, get your members in for interviews and get them signed and back here by CoB today - they are due in Ottawa on Monday you know."

Despite the fact they had them for MONTHS, we still didn't get them back until just before they were due to be IN to NDHQ and - to top it all off - they had been changed by the CoC and no longer complied with the CANFORGEN directing compliance with CFPAS policy and handbook.

On 01 Jun, the Monday they were actually supposed to be in Ottawa - I said "where's mine for me to sign?"

Go figure.

It's not like PERs are actually a new concept. They happen every year. If the various assorted CoC would just leave them the F alone and follow national direction as they are supposed to instead of micromanaging us to F'n death ... life would be grand and PERs would actually make it to Ottawa written as required and on time. What a concept!

 

[Jammer]

Ack,
I started writing PERs in DEC...there were still 3 months left in the reporting year for goodness sake.
I made two drafts and sent them in from the strong point with the caveat that I wasn't re-doing them.
I had bigger things to deal with at the time.
I never saw them again....I wonder....

 

[armyvern]

That's an over-simplification.  No doubt applicable in some cases, but the broader issue is the completely unregulated growth of administrative documents and resulting requirements at every command level in the past 10-15 years.  Much of it might have been avoided if a lot of commanders and senior staff had actually been working to create efficient systems rather than measuring staff work product by weight of paper produced.

Nah, not here. It can't be the weight of the paperwork!!

I get Area, Base, Br, and Coy written direction on how to complete PERs (that's mostly NOT in compliance with CFPAS policy direction [ie: no-one will be right-lined/left-lined]) use AF/don't use AF etc etc even though the national direction is available right on each one of our compputers!!

BUT, I haven't seen an Op Order on ANYTHING in approx 14 months. Not a parade; nary a Mess Dinner; Not a tasking; nary a range PWT III; nada. You know, the stuff they actually SHOULD be issuing written direction for. Why not?

"Well, because we put it on the Br trg Calendar in Outlook. We said "Range/Gas Huts. Sup Coy to provide 6 pers, Tn 6, Maint 12".

So, I get to review the Br calendar in Outlook Express each and every day to see if someone has added anything to it for 5 weeks from now or whatever that I have to provide pers for so that I can actually Plan, Organize, and administer. Because if I don't --- I have no idea my pers were tasked to something until after they've missed it. So where was the Op Order on that? says I and my fellow WOs --- only to be told ... none was required because we put it in Outlook Calendar.

Yep, Houston - we have a problem.

 

[Old Sweat]

We have a long tradition of red tape, needless paper work and general bumpf in the army. Take a look at Otter's Guide for the Canadian Militia, which has not a word on tactics or real leadership, but pages on pages of procedures for laying out camps, organizing an orderly room, etc, etc. (I am in our RV and don't have my library handy, but believe me most of us would recognize the mindset.)

Fast forward to the South African War. Sergeant William Hart-McHarg of A Coy 2 RCR wrote probably the best personal account of the Canadian army in South Africa. At one point he commented adversely on the parade square, garrison mentality of the permanent force. He wrote, words to the effect, that in each of the regular garrisons there was only about half a company's worth of troops available for duty. Despite that, the whole regimental routine of a British infantry battalion was practiced rigidly. Hart-McHarg ended his diatribe with the observation that red tape had been elevated to an art form.

I'm afraid we, well you, are trying to f.rt against thunder.

 

[Rifleman62]

My Lord, if I attempted to answer the mass of futile correspondence which surrounds me, I should be debarred from the serious business of campaigning...So long as I retain an independent position, I shall see no officer under my command is debarred by attending to the futile driveling of mere quill-driving from attending to his first duty, which is and always has been to train the private men under his command that they may without question beat any force opposed to them in the field. - The Duke of Wellington, to the Secretary of State for War during the Peninsular Campaign

 

[Dog]

From reply number 26.... until here. Read it, and then imagine it magnified across the army. Obsession with paperwork, indeed.

I know that where I am right now, and Towards_the_Gap might know about this, there are a TON of troops just waiting out their 5 year stint, and chomping at the bit to get out. And it all has to do with doing Dog and Pony shows, and sitting around when we could be training, and being told we 're ALL busy ... except, no, the MCpls are all too busy to "supervise." So training goes out the window. However, the RSM, a true bureaucrat if I've ever seen one, insists we stay until exactly 4pm everyday, whether there's work for us to do or not. Guys go stir-crazy sitting on there asses.

We get told to "look busy, the Sgt-Major is coming down." So we count a triwall of supplies we have for a deployment that never happened, and we count it 3 times in a row until we find out he isn't coming. Or we take 2 days longer than we need to, to build something so that the Brigade commander can come down and see us in action. It's stupid, and we know it, and our superiors seem think it's just the "nature of the beast" (a phrase I'm sick of hearing as an excuse) when we all know its blatant ball-licking. None of us joined the army for that.

Guys join the army to do "army-stuff" take that away from them, and they'll leave.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Guys join the army to do "army-stuff" take that away from them, and they'll leave.

Yup, "guys" do join the Arny to do army-stuff, but the purpose of the Army isn't to keep the troops entertained with hi-speed army-stuff to do every day.  The reality is, the resources simply don't exist for that.

You've probably done more army-stuff in the past five years than my section commanders 20 years ago did in their careers that ended at 25+ years before the Army got busy with the Balkans.  It's all a matter of perspective, 20 years ago spending a week of company live fire training with two live attacks was a highlight of a training year (and usually done on someone else's training budget).  You can bitch about the change of pace when you're not on the operational high-speed track, or you can suck back and enjoy the relaxed pace  before the whirlwind starts again (and then we see the bitching about the pace and volume of training).

 

[Kat Stevens]

Yup, "guys" do join the Arny to do army-stuff, but the purpose of the Army isn't to keep the troops entertained with hi-speed army-stuff to do every day.  The reality is, the resources simply don't exist for that.

You've probably done more army-stuff in the past five years than my section commanders 20 years ago did in their careers that ended at 25+ years before the Army got busy with the Balkans.  It's all a matter of perspective, 20 years ago spending a week of company live fire training with two live attacks was a highlight of a training year (and usually done on someone else's training budget).  You can bitch about the change of pace when you're not on the operational high-speed track, or you can suck back and enjoy the relaxed pace  before the whirlwind starts again (and then we see the bitching about the pace and volume of training).

While I agree with you mostly,  when was the last time you had to sweep the compound for the fourth time in the same day, or count the same pallet of 6' pickets repeatedly, just so that middle management can tell the guys in the tile floor and air conditioned part of the building that they managed to keep you busy till 16:00 on a Friday?  It gets boring after 8 or 10 years.  Even back in the crappy old low budget 80s we had a saying, "if you've got nothing to do, don't do it here."

 

[McG]

That's an over-simplification.  No doubt applicable in some cases, but the broader issue is the completely unregulated growth of administrative documents and resulting requirements at every command level in the past 10-15 years.  Much of it might have been avoided if a lot of commanders and senior staff had actually been working to create efficient systems rather than measuring staff work product by weight of paper produced.

It does not help where, in some cases, we have policies specifically directing each successive lower level of command to create its own parallel, amplifying & reinforcing policy.

 

[X-mo-1979]

You've probably done more army-stuff in the past five years than my section commanders 20 years ago did in their careers that ended at 25+ years before the Army got busy with the Balkans.  It's all a matter of perspective, 20 years ago spending a week of company live fire training with two live attacks was a highlight of a training year (and usually done on someone else's training budget).  You can ***** about the change of pace when you're not on the operational high-speed track, or you can suck back and enjoy the relaxed pace  before the whirlwind starts again (and then we see the bitching about the pace and volume of training).

Yes we can *****.There is no enjoyment out of sitting on a hanger floor for 8 hrs of the day doing nothing.The time tends to fly when you can surf army.ca and other entertaining websites,however go stare at a wall and see how qucik that clock flies by.

I remember people saying "if there's nothing to do don't do it here"...and they actually followed through on it!I seem to hear that in each organization I ever get into and we are still sitting waiting for 16h00.After doing a PT then 9h30 parade being the highlight of our day.

It costs nothing to the unit budget to send guys off home.Or send them off to the gym,or a crazy idea which has died being sports afternoon.

This ties back into what I was saying about a large amount of people releasing whe nour OP tempo die's and the stupidity doesn't.