Peaceniks Try Direct Mail on Vandoos Destined for AFG

[battleaxe]

Thanks for the follow-up...it takes the "Where did they get the personal info?" out of the equation. Still maddening, though.

 

[Reccesoldier]

wouldn't hurt for some of the posters here to write them a letter) about the security issues/legal ramifications/danger to soldiers that they may be (seemingly are) oblivious to?

Do you honestly believe that they would care?  You forget that these people said words to the effect that if you do go to Afghanistan you are complicit in torture and illegal acts.  Sounds to me like they are the type that would celebrate the deaths of soldiers, not care about loose lips and all that..

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

Sounds to me like they are the type that would celebrate the deaths of soldiers, not care about loose lips and all that..

I respectfully disagree.  I think they've done an incredibly dumb and insulting thing - which is clearly illegal.  However I think they did it out of a genuine belief in their cause. I think they find the idea of human death so abhorrent they just want it all to stop.  I've bunted heads with more than my fair share of NDPers,  I refuse to accept the notion that they get a little glee in their hearts upon hearing of a Canadian killed. I can understand where you are coming from. However, I think it is out of their concern for their fellow Canadians that they are fighting so hard to end our involvement in the war.

I think this story might have legs if enough people raise a stink about it.  Forget writing to the group,  write to the CBC!  If we show enough intrest in it,  they'll play it up - and frankly the anti-afghanistan movement just made a mess on the carpet, lets rub their noses in it.

I just went to the cbc website and wrote them this comment. (go to the story and click on comment):

I find their actions not only insulting, but illegal.
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_II-gb:s_49//en#anchorbo-ga:l_II-gb:s_61

Punishment of seditious offences
62. (1) Every one who wilfully
(a) interferes with, impairs or influences the loyalty or discipline of a member of a force,
(b) publishes, edits, issues, circulates or distributes a writing that advises, counsels or urges insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny or refusal of duty by a member of a force, or
(c) advises, counsels, urges or in any manner causes insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny or refusal of duty by a member of a force,
is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.

When are formal charges going to be laid?

 

[Munxcub]

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_II-gb:s_49//en#anchorbo-ga:l_II-gb:s_49
Inciting to mutiny

53. Every one who
(a) attempts, for a traitorous or mutinous purpose, to seduce a member of the Canadian Forces from his duty and allegiance to Her Majesty, or
(b) attempts to incite or to induce a member of the Canadian Forces to commit a traitorous or mutinous act,
is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years

I like the sentence length on this one better there Zell... Or does it not apply to Civvies?

 

[a_majoor]

I believe something similar was done during the last referendum by PQ or BQ members (openly suggesting the R22er members should switch and become the army of Quebec or something like that) which if anything was even closer to the definitions of Mutiny and Sedation, but nothing was done then, and I can see little or nothing being done now.

Part of the reasoning behind this "may" be to keep the issue small and prevent these organizations from claiming more support due to the "government crackdown", and part of it may be to keep these clowns visible to the police and intelligence communities by giving them no reason to go underrground. There are probably other reasons which we may not be aware of.

Still, one poster did make a suggestion which I think might be interesting with a bit of modification. A mailing could be sent to these organizations pointing out that their address is publicly available and therefore can be found by terrorist groups like the AQ and Taliban.........

 

[FascistLibertarian]

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=da34601d-e96a-4755-a34d-b697517a0f37&k=0

Anti-war letter angers troops
By Graeme Hamilton, National Post
Published: Monday, June 11, 2007
MONTREAL • As families on Canadian Forces Base Valcartier prepare for the departure beginning next month of 2,300 soldiers to Afghanistan, anti-war groups have sent letters to soldiers' homes comparing Canada's military activities to war crimes and urging them to refuse deployment.

The letters from a coalition of Quebec groups prompted angry reactions when they began arriving in mailboxes yesterday on the base outside Quebec City, home to the Royal 22nd Regiment, or Vandoos.

"I read the headlines and threw it in the trash," said Master Corporal Pierre Calve, a father of three set to deploy to Afghanistan in August. "I believe in this mission. I have family here in Canada. This is a way to protect them, like our grandfathers did in the First and Second World Wars. It's not to go and kill people but to protect the peace."


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Font: ****The mailing, addressed simply to the occupant of homes on and around the army base, was paid for by anti-war groups based in Quebec City, Montreal and Gatineau. "Canada's role in Afghanistan is a trap. It means on-the-ground Canadian soldiers become cannon fodder' for the illogical and unjust policies of generals and politicians," the letter reads.

Participating in the mission equals "complicity with the civilian deaths and other activities - like the transfer of prisoners to potential torture and death - that are tantamount to war crimes," it says.

Joseph Bergeron, spokesman for a group called Guerre a la Guerre (War Against War), said he is not concerned the harsh message might upset family members of personnel bound for Afghanistan.
"Our letter is not what will traumatize people, but when they are over there and they see how many civilians die and [that] there are going to be many Canadians killed or injured, that is when the trauma will occur," Mr. Bergeron said.

He said he recognizes there could be legal repercussions to the group's appeal to soldiers. The Criminal Code says that anyone who "attempts to incite or to induce a member of the Canadian Forces to commit a traitorous or mutinous act" is guilty of an indictable offence punishable by a prison term of up to 14 years.

"We know that soldiers do not have the right to desert their company, and we could be accused of encouraging them to do that," Mr. Bergeron said. "Except, we believe we have a legitimate right to offer our opinion and information to soldiers. We don't think that is a crime. If they want to use repression against us, we will continue resisting because we oppose the government's policies."

The mailing cites the example of Francisco Juarez, a Canadian Forces reservist who was fined $500 and discharged over his opposition to the Afghanistan mission. It also says U.S. soldiers "daily" resist orders to serve in Iraq.

The coalition is also offering to provide legal counsel to soldiers who take up its offer.
Major Daryl Morrell, a Forces spokesman, said Canadian soldiers can opt out of serving in Afghanistan if they have compelling family or personal circumstances.

"We've got a whole lot of people who are chomping at the bit to go," he said. "If someone asks not to go, it's not hard to fill his position."

Anne Marie Velasco, whose husband is stationed at Valcartier and whose brother-in-law is shipping out to Afghanistan this summer, was troubled to see the letter appear at her home yesterday.
"It's not their business to tell us what to do," she said. "I don't like having a letter like that come into my house."

She added that it was irresponsible of the peace groups to send a mass mailing that could easily be opened by the children of service people headed for Afghanistan.

News of the letter drew a furious response on an Internet forum at army.ca. Under the heading, "Peaceniks Try Direct Mail on Vandoos Destined for AFG," one member suggested another use for the mailing. "I certainly hope the letters were written on a soft but absorbent paper, so they can be used by the soldiers for a function appropriate to the contents," a contributor named Colin P. wrote.
The groups behind the letter are also planning a protest on June 22 to coincide with a support-our-troops parade in Quebec City. In a statement yesterday, the office of Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor encouraged Quebecers to pay tribute to soldiers by attending the parade.

"Our men and women in uniform - and their families - are called on to make great sacrifices for Canada and they do so with honour and pride," the statement read.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Still, one poster did make a suggestion which I think might be interesting with a bit of modification. A mailing could be sent to these organizations pointing out that their address is publicly available and therefore can be found by terrorist groups like the AQ and Taliban.........

Heck, if someone had the resources, arrange a little support the troops "flyer drop" for postal codes known to have, say, anarchist book stores and/or head shops.  What's good for the goose.... 

Part of the reasoning behind this "may" be to keep the issue small and prevent these organizations from claiming more support due to the "government crackdown", and part of it may be to keep these clowns visible to the police and intelligence communities by giving them no reason to go underground.

+10

 

[vonGarvin]

I like the sentence length on this one better there Zell... Or does it not apply to Civvies?

It applies to all Canadian Citizens.  It's from the Criminal Code of Canada

 

[RatCatcher]

I just got mine in the mail, when I get home I will scan it and post it so you guys can get real laugh out of it. I'm tempted to send it to the local RCMP detachement and mention that I do not like receiving mail that encourages going AWOL....

Cheers

 

[Bzzliteyr]

I am wondering if their research was done correctly and mine was sent to my 'real' address in my other province

 

[MidnightSun]

I found a url to their site, I think. I used Google French->English translator, so please excuse the length of the url and the poor translation:

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.coalitionsquebec.org&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en

http://www.coalitionsquebec.org

The coalition is called Guerre a la Guerre, their spokesman in the news reports is Joseph Bergeron.

"The coalition includes groups Québec pour la paix, Block the Empire Montreal and Rassemblement Outaouais contre la guerre."


Suffice to say, it looks like it's a very small group of radicals with very little impact.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

I just got mine in the mail, when I get home I will scan it and post it so you guys can get real laugh out of it. I'm tempted to send it to the local RCMP detachement and mention that I do not like receiving mail that encourages going AWOL....

If you do,  be sure to attach a copy of the criminal code sections that it breaks.

Yes please do show us.  You know,  since this crime did happen to you,  you can go and make a formal complaint.  I don't know how harassed you feel, or how adversely this will affect you and your income potential, moral, soundness of your sleep.  This is totally your call,  but I've sued people for less.  I love civil law. (I'm going to go look for my law books - I remember something about the requirements for the intentional tort where someone does something that causes you distress, and I think there is a special thing if done through the mail.)  The joy of civil law is in some cases you don't have to prove that a law was broken, but just that someone did something they shouldn't have and you were adversely affected - or that they were being a jerk.

Please forgive me,  I did a search for the actual law,  however I haven't found it yet.  I did find this,  which I hesitate to link because it is wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_infliction_of_mental_distress 

It looks so similar to exactly what I remember from my class.  (Keep in mind I'm not a lawer, I'm just tossing out ideas)

 

[bjr]

Thoughts re: Criminal Code Charges:

1. Never gonna happen. The Quebec Attorney General and Chief Crown Prosecutor would never proceed with charges under s. 52 (or similar sections) in a million years. Can you imagine the political fallout? It would give these nutjobs precisely the profile and attention they're seeking. In fact, I don't think it is unreasonable to assume this group read the Criminal Code and designed this mailout with the precise purpose of baiting the police into charging them. If they're charged criminally there will be an enormous media hoopla surrounding the trial, and these poor defenceless peaceniks will stand on the steps of the courthouse every afternoon and complain about how Canada's fascist government is interfering with their legitimate right to dissent.

2. I suspect that a court would either declare s. 52 of the CC in violation of s. 2(b) of the Charter, or grant a "constitutional exemption" from the law to this particular group for this particular mailout. Criminalizing this act just doesn't pass the 21st-century "smell test" - sure, it's offensive, but I think most judges would have a hard time believing that this relatively benign "counseling" should result in a criminal conviction when we live in a society that places such a high value on freedom of expression. If this legal restriction on counseling desertion isn't a minimal impairment of the right to free expression, which doesn't appear to be the case, it would be pretty easy for a court to declare it unconstitutional. (Cue the rants about Canada's Awful Liberal Judges -- but for the record, I'm not sure how I personally would decide such a case. There are all kinds of disgusting actions that I think should be constitutionally protected.) ...and about now is where I regret opening this can of worms.

3. Perhaps the best course of action would be for Canada Post to refuse to do targeted mailouts such as these for the group anymore, given that they are prima facie illegal. I'm fairly certain Canada Post is protected from liability for anything it delivers, but that doesn't mean it can't choose not to deliver an illegal mailout. I have no legal authority for this belief, but surely to goodness CP has a policy on denying its services to, for example, hate propagandists, on the basis such propaganda is illegal.

 

[MidnightSun]

I doubt that the RCMP would charge them with inciting mutiny or sedition, but I do agree... if there are any French servicemen here who receive the letter and believe it breaks the law, please do send it in to the RCMP with the attached laws. In the very least, perhaps the RCMP will "talk" with the organization to let them know of the illegality and to stop further mailings to other brothers and sisters who serve.

The laws exist for a reason and shouldn't be taken lightly, regardless of how anyone feels about the current mission.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Well, from what the guys here are telling me (and if it's the same letter they are talking about) then the letter is mailed to "Occupant"  so I think it could only be considered Spam at most?  

Don't hang me, I am playing devil's advocate.

Bjr,midnightsun.  I am not a mod, but it'd be nice to have some profile information on you as it will give us some insight on who we are talking to.. thanks.

 

[Trooper Hale]

You keep tossing out ideas Zell and the boys will start tossing around civil suits like its going out of fashion! ;D
"I cant sleep anymore. I keep dreaming the postman is delivering more and more of them. I cant even go outside any more for fear of seeing the post box. My military career is ruined".
I mean seriously, how far off the truth can that be?

 

[Bzzliteyr]

I see dead people.....

 

[amastermason]

Congratulation to the proud Canadians who try to incite the members of the CF to desert the military.  If these individuals get their way, the CF would be disbanded for a group of sandal wearing pers who would rather ask the enemy to stop shooting, bombing, and terrorizing, and then they would win.  I wonder who's side these "Activists" are really on.  They expect the police to do their job, but not the members of the CF.  They have the freedom to voice their opinions, on the backs of the proud members of the CF, regardless of trade or qualification, who are there to ensure that others may live in peace.  I really pity these groups who write these letters, and protest, they deserve our collective pity.  Poor misguided souls, with no direction in life.

 

[medaid]

I see dead people.....

You don't see them now do you? 

 

[pipstah]

I did receive that letter too and I think they targeted the PMQs area. The letter is for the: À l'occupant ou à l'occupante wich mean to the occupant if my english is correct. The thing is, I received that letter within my mail so does that mean that Canada Post is doing spam now ? I had to take couple of deep breaths after reading that letter. Even if I'm not going to be deployed any time soon, I just think it's a dishonnor to men and women who'll get deployed soon and make sacrifices. My girlfriend read the letter and she was more in bad mood than I was. It's really nice to know that your lovely half  fully support les boyz  By the way, I tried to call their phone number...got no answer...