Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land

[Bo]

Atrocities against defenseless poor people?  Oh, you mean like strapping on a bomb belt and blowing yourself iup n a crowded restaurant, bus, or mall filled with defenseless people..  Or maybe hijacking 4 civil airliners full of defenseless people and crashing them into buildings full of other defenseless people?

Give your head a shake,  THey are poor because they can't forget their past glories,  real or imagined.  They would rather sit and work themselves into a frenzied hatred as the world passes them by in leaps and bounds, rebuffing every olive branch offered them.  They are the architects of their own fate.  

BTW, Did you ever notice how these enraged warriors hide behind their children while Israeli troops stand in front of theirs?

Oh man, where shall I begin...

Palestinians in the West Bank, including east Jerusalem, have lived under Israeli occupation since 1967. The settlements that Israel has built in the West Bank are home to around 400,000 people and are deemed to be illegal under international law

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/country_profiles/803257.stm

The restrictions imposed by Israel on the movements of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories have reached an unprecedented level since the beginning of the intifada (Palestinian uprising) in September 2000.(1) Closures, blockades, checkpoints, roadblocks, curfews and other restrictions have had a disastrous impact on the lives of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and have crippled the Palestinian economy. Unemployment and poverty have spiralled, malnutrition has emerged, anaemia and other health problems have increased and education has been negatively affected.
In law as well as in practice, the Israeli authorities have breached their obligations under international law to respect and protect the rights of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The sweeping and indiscriminate restrictions imposed by Israel on the movement of people and goods in the Occupied Territories not only violate the right to freedom of movement, but also infringe the right to work and other economic and social rights of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories.

Some 60 percent of Palestinians now live below the poverty line of US$2 per day and most are forced to depend on aid. The high levels of unemployment, poverty, malnutrition and other health problems afflicting Palestinians are not just a humanitarian problem they are the direct result of the restrictions imposed by Israel on the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150642003

Israel holds about 7,500 Palestinian prisoners in a system which has been criticised by the Public Defender's Office for chronic overcrowding.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3635748.stm



I'll tell you what, watch the movie Peace Propaganda and the Promised Land and afterwards, tell me you don't feel different about the current ME situation. Hell, I'll even watch and/or read any piece that you want which supports your position.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Bo,
You have some points above...there's just one thing that makes it all just too stupid.

They keep poking the big guy even though the big guy has been pulling back and allowing more freedom.  So who is to blame? Well all I know if I allow more freedom to my children and things go alright than its all good, if those freedoms mean I have more headaches, then.........

I wonder how long the US would take us lobbing the occasional mortar round or shooting at the odd vehicle now and then?

...and I wonder how many Jamaicans are in our penal system? You oppressor you.....

 

[rifleman]

Bo,
You have some points above...there's just one thing that makes it all just too stupid.

They keep poking the big guy even though the big guy has been pulling back and allowing more freedom.  So who is to blame? Well all I know if I allow more freedom to my children and things go alright than its all good, if those freedoms mean I have more headaches, then.........

I wonder how long the US would take us lobbing the occasional mortar round or shooting at the odd vehicle now and then?

...and I wonder how many Jamaicans are in our penal system? You oppressor you.....

Two points, the same thing has happened time and time again with no solution - perhaps time to try another approach
They aren't children

 

[bilton090]

We're all in this together, don't think your wars will not affect our lives
   Tamouh
    You are not on my side, it makes me sick to think of you as a Canadian citizen, and a  X member of the CF. You said you are a product of that region I can see that you have the same 2000 yr old f-ed up way of thinking. It's not about land, or looking for a peaceful solution it's about KILLING all the Jews they can ! & now they would like to KILL all the people that didn't think the f-ed way they do !
    You said let the UN security council fix it, LOL what a sh@t pit that is !
     Middle eastern culture WTF, that's why we are in this spot !
     Israel should say 1 more rocket hits our cities and we will tack. nuke you, the Palestinians, Syria & Iran.These country's are so f-ed they don't know they lost, hit them with a bigger club, maybe killing a million or so will do something ! , all they know is killing, give it back to them ! they should be exterminated, they can't live in peace !
 The U.S. did it to Japan to save lives ! Israel maybe should be thinking the same way.
 That's my rant !  

this is across the line. Do not repeat it.

They act like animals what do you like me to call it ? PUT DOWN, RUBBED OUT,SENATISED ! I call a spade a spade, this cancer needs Rad. treatment bigtime !

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Welcome to read-only for 2 weeks.


EDIT: My error.....read-only for 7 days.

 

[Shec]

Re;  Bo's reply:

The operative phrase being:

The restrictions imposed since the beginning of the intifada by Israel on the movements of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories have reached an unprecedented level (Palestinian uprising) in September 2000.

Well no kidding,  It was an open revolt by orchestated by people bent on Israel's destruction.  You expected a dinner invitation perhaps?

I'll watch your Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land IF you either read or watch the video version of  The Fifty Years War.  
Don't quote me the BBC or Amnesty International, both are hardly unbiased commentators.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Him again?

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34776/post-272034.html#msg272034

:boring:

 

[paracowboy]

They aren't children

then they should behaving as such.

 

[Bo]

mythology mythology
mythology
not even close to the whole truth. Perhaps if YOU did some actual research, you'd realize that. I have a post with a list of over 40 books on the subject. Pick a few and start reading.

Believe me Para, I am the last person to go around thumping a Qur'an, Bible or what have you (I am Agnostic). But if extremists on both sides feel that strongly about what is written in their religious texts, maybe Joaquim's statement has some merit, no?

 

[paracowboy]

Galloway? You're going to try to use Galloway? BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[paracowboy]

But if extremists on both sides feel that strongly about what is written in their religious texts, maybe Joaquim's statement has some merit, no?

not really. It's amazing how fast people can forget what their Faith tells them is Right when they stand to gain from doing what it says is Wrong. For instance, the Qu'ran states that Muslims MUST protect Christians and Jews as they are People of the Book. But, Mo said once that the Jews had to be eliminated. Now, in the first case, he was talking about the entire Race/Religion, and in the second, he was referring to a specific city that had refused to surrender to him. Guess which statement is used to validate the bile and hatred? And gues why? Because greedy men can employ it as a tool to distract their populace from the poverty and ignorance they live in as a direct result of the actions of those same greedy men.

People will always twist their religion to meet whatever requirements they have of it. It gets worse when dealing with Islam, since Imams, Mullahs, etc do not have to meet any requirements aside from being able to quote the Qu'ran fluently in Arabic. So most simply learn it phonetically, and then have a bully pulpit to preach whatever rancourous hatred they may have in their hearts.

So, it's not religion, as such. It's politics (read: greed) disguised as religion. Marx and Engels were never as right in their opinion of religion as they are when it pertains to the ME. So, we COULD with effort distort Joiquim's post to match, but I prefer not to distort anything. There's enough of that as it is, when trying to make sense of the mess that is Central Asia.

 

[Bo]

Re;  Bo's reply:

The operative phrase being:

Well no kidding,  It was an open revolt by orchestated by people bent on Israel's destruction.  You expected a dinner invitation perhaps?

I'll watch your Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land IF you either read or watch the video version of  The Fifty Years War.  
Don't quote me the BBC or Amnesty International, both are hardly unbiased commentators.

Geez, 5 hours! LOL I gave you an 80min documentary that's on google video.

Nevertheless, I agree to watching The Fifty Years War. Hopefully blockbuster has it.


Amnesty biased? Yeah, they do tend to have problems when human rights violations occur :. They have also condemned suicide bombers so don't think they're out to get Israel.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I used to support AI, but found that they began to spend most of their time attacking the west mostly for minor stuff, which I suspect was a way to increase guilt and therefore more donations, they seem less interested in talking about the real nasty stuff that goes on, because most people don’t want to hear it and it won’t get them media attention.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is nothing compared to the crap that goes on in Africa, ask people if they know anything about the “Lord’s Resistance Army” and what they do to children, that is horrifying.

The ME is just an ongoing reality TV show that makes for good media coverage, where the media can film selectivly in Gaza during the day and stay in a nice hotel in Israel at night.

 

[Bo]

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is nothing compared to the crap that goes on in Africa, ask people if they know anything about the “Lord’s Resistance Army” and what they do to children, that is horrifying.

Amnesty has printed 153 articles describing human rights abuses in Africa during 2006 alone:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-2af/index&start=1

In total, Amnesty has printed over 2672 articles for N.Africa and the Middle East versus 2483 articles for Africa. Is Amnesty biased?

 

[Rey]

rey with your logic only the Israelis are forced to concede anything. Where is it fair for them? Its not.

True, but for a discussion it gives us a starting point.

Let me explain my reasoning for the two points.

for Lebanon:

It makes no use to come to an agreement with the Lebanese govt on a treaty of some kind and have Hezbollah continue on as usual. If they do, eventually, we will find ourselves in a similar position.
Now, if Hezbollah is involved, they have a vested interest in maintaining the peace. The reason I suggested returning Shebaa Farms was because this is something both Hezbollah the Lebanese govt are both requesting. What I should have said was placing it on the negotiating table, this way both parties will come to the table.
Once we have all parties at the table, the details can be discussed, especially covering the statement from Hezbollah that they would disarm if Shebaa farms were returned.
I didn't mean to imply that *all* of the Shebaa Farms would have to be returned *immediately*, again those would be negotiating points.

But to get to that starting point there needs to be a cease fire. I have no idea how that is going to happen, IDF wants to hold a buffer zone, Hezbollah sees a bunch of targets.


for Occupied Terratories/Israel

I chose returning to the 67 border because of UN Resolution 242. My reasoning in this regard is enforce all UN Resolutions, or don't bother with any of them. IMO piecemeal enforcement will create more problems than it will solve.
It is my understanding that there is a bit of play in actual land involved due to the wording of the resolution. Maybe this can be used to adjust the border to keep towns & farms together.
One option for Israeli security would be a strong 3rd party policing force, the reason for this is that there will be terrorists trying to break any peace.

This would have to be a complete withdrawal with no Israeli only roads or settlements. Settlers should be given a choice of remaining behind as citizens of the Palestine state.
If I remember correctly, the Palestinians want anyone to be able to return to their original homes. They would have to give that up, any of the diaspora would have to return the new Palestinian state, not Israel.


I know in both points there are a number of issues to be discussed. The upshot is that if it is successful, Israel could have peace in the territories and with Lebanon.

I think that if you give people a vested interest in peace you can effect a change in them, also these people are less likely to support terrorists if they have something to lose.

Finally my reason for Jerusalem as an International city. No 1 religion controls the city, all visitors and residents treated the same. Could defuse many arguments.


I am aware that these points are based on my perceptions and assumptions, but if the dialog consists of Jews/Muslims are evil and only understand force, there will never be peace in the ME.

I look forward to any counterpoints.

 

[paracowboy]

There's nothing wrong with being a socialist.  It's supporting fascism that's the problem. 

ahhh, but  there is nothing so like the Far Left as the Far Right. From Socialism to Communism is a very small step. Explain the difference between Communism as practiced by the Soviet Union, China, and their satellites; and fascism as practiced by Il Duce and the National Socialist Party of Germany circa 1930's-1940's.

As for the problems of Socialism, that is covered ad nauseum in other threads.

Actually, don't bother responding, I'm just incapable of not teasing ardent youngsters who think that true Socialism actually works, anywhere.

 

[Shec]

I agree with you that the good vs. evil argument is a non starter.  The real issue is land for security.  And in that regard
Shebaa Farms should be  off the table for a very strategic reason:  it is a saddle connecting the rest of the Golan high ground to Mt. Hermon.  To give it up would be to create a salient.   And why should Israel, from a purely military perspective, give up high ground to a adversary long and publicly bent on its destruction?  It's like giving Hez & Syria the keys to the vault.

West Bank:

Again the high ground and weaponry dictate considerations.  And the high ground follows the Jenin - Nablus - Jerusalem - Hebron axis.   The Pals can have everything east of that but again why give up the high ground & effective range especially considering:

and,

and speaking of rockets, let's return to Lebanon for a moment:

The idea of having a 3rd party police the Israel/PA border is preposterous for as you yourself say there will always be terrorists trying to cross it.   That being the case why would a country abdicate its ability to defend itself?   The Gov. of Lebanon effectively did that & look what it got them.

Re; Jerusalem.  As you say religion controls the city.  Isn't Judiasm is entitled to a city of its own not unlike The Vatican, Mecca, or Medina? And unlike them the temples of other religions are not banned.   No,  Jerusalem stays too.

Re:  The Pal right of return.  Besides it also being preposterous (would you invite a couple of million people who hate you to move in next door?) it is a matter of historical record that Pal Arabs were invited to stay and help build the new state when Israel announced its Declaration of Independence in 1948.  Instead of picking up the builder's hammer the Arabs reached for the sword.  Well let them enjoy the wine from their sour grapes.

Obeying a UN resolution for no other reason than because it is a resolution?  Naive.

 

[armyvern]

Shebaa Farms should be  off the table for a very strategic reason:  it is a saddle connecting the rest of the Golan high ground to Mt. Hermon.  To give it up would be to create a salient.   And why should Israel, from a purely military perspective, give up high ground to a adversary publicly bent on its destruction?  It's like giving Hez & Syria the keys to the vault.

Let's not forget the water. Israel, by far the largest consumer of fresh water in the Middle East, diverts the Jordan River above Lake Tibereas (Sea of Gallilee) in the Golan Heights from where it derives aprox 35% of the fresh water it consumes. Water is both a National security issue and a political issue in Israel. Mount Hermon, the headpond of the River Jordan, the Yarmouk river(another fresh water supply), are all located in the Golan Heights. Then there's the age old question of the Latani River in the "security zone" of Lebanon and whether or not it is being diverted.

A Salient the Shebaa Farms may be, but there's much more than the high ground at stake here.

 

[Infanteer]

And in that regard
Shebaa Farms should be  off the table for a very strategic reason:  it is a saddle connecting the rest of the Golan high ground to Mt. Hermon.  To give it up would be to create a salient.   And why should Israel, from a purely military perspective, give up high ground to a adversary long and publicly bent on its destruction?  It's like giving Hez & Syria the keys to the vault.

...because from a purely military perspective, there hasn't been a conventional threat to Israel since 1973.  What is the point to retaining strategic ground for defensive purposes when your main opponent is suicide bombers and kids with sticks and rocks.

Re; Jerusalem.  As you say religion controls the city.  Isn't Judiasm is entitled to a city of its own not unlike The Vatican, Mecca, or Medina?

No, not when it is equally sacred to other faiths.  If you are prepared to say Israel should get Jerusalem for religious reasons, then I see no point in trying to undermine the claims of certain Islamic factions to push Israel out of "Dar al Islam"....

 

[Shec]

Let's not forget the water. Israel, by far the largest consumer of fresh water in the Middle East, diverts the Jordan River above Lake Tibereas (Sea of Gallilee) in the Golan Heights from where it derives aprox 35% of the fresh water it consumes. Water is both a National security issue and a political issue in Israel. Mount Hermon, the headpond of the River Jordan, the Yarmouk river(another fresh water supply), are all located in the Golan Heights. Then there's the age old question of the Latani River in the "security zone" of Lebanon and whether or not it is being diverted.

A Salient the Shebaa Farms may be, but there's much more than the high ground at stake here.

Thanks for raising the water consideration ArmyVern.   You are absolutely correct and I am indeed ashamed of myself for overlooking it.  In fact  Syria's attempt to divert the headwaters of the Jordan R. was one of the provocations of the 1967 war and Israel's subsequent annexation of Golan.