Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land
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tamouh said:
a) Depends how they worked for it. Hard work should be rewarded with success. Working hard at murder and excluding anyone who is not a radical islamist is not something that should be rewarded.
b) Way to open ended to answer sussinctly, but here in Canada, I would say the Liberal leadership was very weak, yet held power for years.
tamouh said:
Where do you get this stuff about Israel trying to run the middle east?!?!? All they want is peace within their own borders. The only reason they occupy any land is to secure it and stem the attacks. And you know bloody well that Israel is not adopting anyone elses culture. However, I have heard that Israel is quite tollerant of other religions in Israel, unlike it's neighbors.
tamouh said:
I never claimed to be an expert in the middle east. I also fail to see what the difference is between an assasination attempt and an uprising? And I think you can knock it off with the "I'm a victim, he is picking on me" attitude with that sort of jab.
tamouh said:
Cripes, again with being down on your fellow Arabs! Jeez, is there any place in your mind that Arabs could get something done without going on a civilian killing rampage? Yes, I would be thrilled to support an uprising in Iran and see the theocrats get hung and torched. But that would be a military action, not planting cowardly bombs in markets to kill people while they go about their daily business. If they are blowing up military or government buildings, then yes, have at 'er.
tamouh said:
And I would hope that your attitude to your fellow Arabs back in the middle east doesn't come off as insulting to them as it does to me. Several times now you have alluded to the idea that Arabs need to be beaten into submission, ruled with an iron hand and will mindlessly kill in order to avenge killing forever, based on history. Around my parts that is called predjudice, but maybe it is okay when you are foisting it on your own people. For me, the dummy who thinks that all humans have the capacity to learn and change, and believes that all people, Arabs included, basically want their families to thrive and survive
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As a general rule in a debate, when a particpant refuses to answer the first question posed to him/her (esp one as relevant as the one posed to him) and is usually a good indication that he/she is full of s**t. And to not answer the later question of "Can you blame Israel for wanting to destroy Hezbollah rockets", well, any reasonable person would have said no regardless of their opinion of Israel's motives.
This guy is a self admitted socialist who's said, and i quote "If you are asking did I support the Soviet Union, yes I did. Yes, I did support the Soviet Union, and I think the disappearance of the Soviet Union is the biggest catastrophe of my life."
When metting with saddam Hussein: "Sir: I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigably." Additionally he said "hatta al-nasr, hatta al-nasr, hatta al-Quds" (Arabic for "until victory, until victory, until Jerusalem")."
He has been filmed adressing Uday as "Your excellency".
And he's been known to fly the Palestinian flag above his constituency office.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Galloway
This guy's off his rocker. The real question is why would a reputable news agency bring in such a known crackpot? IMO, sky news showed a little bias by bringing him in, not for his side, but against it because he reasonably should have been expected to make a laughing stock of the side he's arguing for, as he clearly did. That's like bringing in a southern snake handling bible basher to represent Christianity in an interview.
This guy is a self admitted socialist who's said, and i quote "If you are asking did I support the Soviet Union, yes I did. Yes, I did support the Soviet Union, and I think the disappearance of the Soviet Union is the biggest catastrophe of my life."
When metting with saddam Hussein: "Sir: I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigably." Additionally he said "hatta al-nasr, hatta al-nasr, hatta al-Quds" (Arabic for "until victory, until victory, until Jerusalem")."
He has been filmed adressing Uday as "Your excellency".
And he's been known to fly the Palestinian flag above his constituency office.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Galloway
This guy's off his rocker. The real question is why would a reputable news agency bring in such a known crackpot? IMO, sky news showed a little bias by bringing him in, not for his side, but against it because he reasonably should have been expected to make a laughing stock of the side he's arguing for, as he clearly did. That's like bringing in a southern snake handling bible basher to represent Christianity in an interview.
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I have been offsite for the past month for a number of reasons which I will be happy to disclose by way of a private message if asked. Tamouh, as you say
Well here is my side of the coin coming as a 3rd generation Jewish Canadian and as a 2nd generation CF vet. I didn't write it, I only wish I had for it unequivocally reflects my sentiments:
Now, to the essential elements of the Tamouh Plan for Peace:
(1) Seek UN security council resolution condemning Hezbollah (easily will pass)
Oh goody, another UN Resolution. Just like all the others nobody has paid any heed to. With a UN Resolution + $1.25 we can each get a cup of coffee at Tim Hortons unless there is a force to enforce it. And with the UN dominated by the Muslim bloc of countries who make up at least 1/4 of its membership I think we can all agree that a UN force is not mutually acceptable.
(2)
Put pressure on Lebanon to secure its border, US can play major role in this as well since Lebanon government became a major US ally after the Syrian withdrawal
The Lebanese Army is either effectively or perceptively impotent at best or a replacement and training depot for Hez at worst. Therefore the problem will be perpetuated, not solved , as there is no credibility.
How about an arms embargo against Leb/Hez until both sign a sign a peace treaty with Israel to end the state of war that has existed since Lebanon declared it in 1948. Arrangement to be backed up by mutually acceptable MNF mandated to engage in hot pursuit of any violations by either party.
(3) Pursue avenue of swapping prisoners between Lebanon and Israel - official (not between Hezbollah and Israel).
If a 3rd party is to become custodian of the PoWs and a facilitator of the exchange should that not be a neutral 3rd party which Lebanon is definitely not? Once again - a role for a mutually acceptable multi-national force. What you are proposing tacitly admits, and re-affirms, that the Lebanese government is complicit. If this fact is beyond compehension let me do you the courtesy of speaking frankly: same sh**, different pile.
(4) Lebanese army integrate Hezbollah within its ranks and deploy soldiers to the south on the border.
see (2) above, first sentence of answer.
(5) The whole process in my opinion would have taken a month until the time to swap prisoners, and under the right pressure the army would have been deployed in about 3 months time.
Given this war has been going on for nearly 60 years now and that the Lebanese Army appears to be such a crack force that is tad overly optimistic, don't you think?
I trust I have clearly presented our position, a position that is not subject to debate. Negotiations yes - if in good faith. Otherwise you might want to re-read the above-quoted article.
tamouh said:
Well here is my side of the coin coming as a 3rd generation Jewish Canadian and as a 2nd generation CF vet. I didn't write it, I only wish I had for it unequivocally reflects my sentiments:
Now, to the essential elements of the Tamouh Plan for Peace:
(1) Seek UN security council resolution condemning Hezbollah (easily will pass)
Oh goody, another UN Resolution. Just like all the others nobody has paid any heed to. With a UN Resolution + $1.25 we can each get a cup of coffee at Tim Hortons unless there is a force to enforce it. And with the UN dominated by the Muslim bloc of countries who make up at least 1/4 of its membership I think we can all agree that a UN force is not mutually acceptable.
(2)
Put pressure on Lebanon to secure its border, US can play major role in this as well since Lebanon government became a major US ally after the Syrian withdrawal
The Lebanese Army is either effectively or perceptively impotent at best or a replacement and training depot for Hez at worst. Therefore the problem will be perpetuated, not solved , as there is no credibility.
How about an arms embargo against Leb/Hez until both sign a sign a peace treaty with Israel to end the state of war that has existed since Lebanon declared it in 1948. Arrangement to be backed up by mutually acceptable MNF mandated to engage in hot pursuit of any violations by either party.
(3) Pursue avenue of swapping prisoners between Lebanon and Israel - official (not between Hezbollah and Israel).
If a 3rd party is to become custodian of the PoWs and a facilitator of the exchange should that not be a neutral 3rd party which Lebanon is definitely not? Once again - a role for a mutually acceptable multi-national force. What you are proposing tacitly admits, and re-affirms, that the Lebanese government is complicit. If this fact is beyond compehension let me do you the courtesy of speaking frankly: same sh**, different pile.
(4) Lebanese army integrate Hezbollah within its ranks and deploy soldiers to the south on the border.
see (2) above, first sentence of answer.
(5) The whole process in my opinion would have taken a month until the time to swap prisoners, and under the right pressure the army would have been deployed in about 3 months time.
Given this war has been going on for nearly 60 years now and that the Lebanese Army appears to be such a crack force that is tad overly optimistic, don't you think?
I trust I have clearly presented our position, a position that is not subject to debate. Negotiations yes - if in good faith. Otherwise you might want to re-read the above-quoted article.
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tamouh said:
tamouh’s point needs to be taken into account. I continue to maintain that we have a (self-declared) enemy – an enemy with a fifth column right here in Canada. That enemy is not Islam or the Arabs, generally, or even the Iranians.
The enemy is: some Islamic groups or movements – like al Qaeda.
The enemy might be (or become) some nation-states, including Iran, Syria and, yes, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf Emirates, too.
The enemy has two broad groups of supporters – the fifth column, around the world including right here in Canada, too:
• Muslims who are, understandably, enraged at invasions of Muslim countries and at overt racism and religious bigotry in the West and in Asia; and
• Tolerant Western ‘liberals’ (who are not, in any way, real liberals, but that is being dealt with on other threads) who want to sympathize with the underdog or who are bitter anti-capitalists (à la Pierre Trudeau) and, therefore, need to declare that ”the enemy of my enemy <the US led, capitalist West> is my friend.”
No one is our enemy just because (s)he is Muslim or of Arabic ethnicity. Many (most? just some? – I have no way of knowing or even of guesstimating with any degree of confidence) of our fellow citizens and guests in our country are good, honest, peaceful people who wish no harm to Canada or Canadians; many are defending and will defend Canada now – in our armed forces.
I am having some trouble finding the right words; I have, elsewhere <here, actually: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/48639/post-425248.html#msg425248 > disclaimed my own use of Islamist as shorthand for the movements and the supporters. I detest cute terms like Islamofascist and I have said, over and over again until people are tired of hearing it that terrorism is not something against which sensible people wish to wage war – we need to eradicate some terrorists, just as we need to support, arm and, now and again, even decorate and honour others – see: http://users.pandora.be/dave.depickere/Text/secretagents.html .
In any event, I, personally, have no brief for (or against) any of the antagonists in the Middle East and no particular interest in the survival of any of them or their religion or their culture. I do not find a localized (to the Middle East) nuclear holocaust to be especially unthinkable. That does not mean the people there, or their cultures are in any way inferior, nor does it mean that any Muslims or Canadians of Middle Eastern ethnicity are less loyal Canadians than any others – handsome old fellows of (largely) Scots descent, for example. It does mean that I don’t much care how people look or what they choose to believe or, even, what they say; I do care about how they act.
I want to return to a point above: ” Muslims who are, understandably, enraged …”
paracowboy said:
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First permit me two digressions (these are the really dry bits, para, you can safely ignore them :-* ) :
1. Many years ago (several decades, actually) a wise old Brit told me, referring to Palestinian gastarbeiters in the Arabian peninsula, ”They [the Palestinians] are the Jews of the Middle East.” What he meant was that the Palestinian town Arabs were heartily detested by their (rich) hosts who really, really wanted to believe that they were still noble desert nomads, etc, etc ad infinitum. The Palestinians were, however, essential – as were (still are) the Euro-Americans because the locals also detested (probably still detest) education and work. (Some of you will remember the one day wonder in the press when it was discovered that while young Egyptian peasants were being deployed to Kuwait/Iraq (Desert Storm) young (rich) Kuwaitis were gambling in the casinos and dancing in the discos in Alexandria.)
I read, recently, (I forget where) an article which explained that one of the reasons that science and technology is retarded in the Middle East is that the Arabic language, with all of its nuances, is so difficult to master that there is little time for math and science at the elementary level. This difficulty leads to a further de-emphasis of the core mat/science subjects which, inevitably, means that people educated in Arabic, in the Middle East have a poor technical base. That doesn’t mean they don’t understand or cannot exploit science and technology – it means that most Middle Eastern countries produce less scientists, engineers and technologists than do Asian and Western countries (despite the difficulties and cultural complexity of, say, Chinese) and they are less valued in those technologically less sophisticated societies. I’m not sure I agree with all of that thesis but it does explain some of the things I saw, many, many years ago, over several years experience in/around that region.
2. I was, recently, invited to give a seminar in a couple of (foreign) universities. I was asked to explain America. I posited that one cannot understand America today without understanding Britain 100, 200, 400 and 800 years ago. I used the collapse of the Angevin ‘empire,’ the defeat of the Armada, the defeat of Napoleon and the Boer War to describe the rise and fall of Britain, emphasizing a few points:
a. Britain was blessed after Henry II by being a rich country with poor kings;
b. Henry II’s greatest legacy was the legal system which instilled, throughout the nation, confidence in and respect for the rule of law;
c. Britain was, from about 1200 on, an essentially liberal (individualistic) society with strong entrepreneurial skills;
d. Elisabeth made a virtue out of economic necessity by developing a maritime strategy – which the French, in particular, never figured out;
e. A British naval meritocracy coupled with a highly entrepreneurial naval system (prizes, etc) made the defeat of Bonaparte’s continental system both inevitable and, relatively, easy; and
f. Britain
But, in those critical centuries, Britain changed the world and it made it possible for a new enlightened, liberal, secular, capitalist 'West' to impose its order on all others - including the Muslims, all the Muslims.
Those digressions matter, to me, because they help me to see how and why the (British led, until 1940) West, and East Asia too for that matter, grew and prospered while the Arabic/Persian ‘world’ stagnated.
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In fairness we must admit that many Muslims do not wish to return to a medieval social order. They want to recapture the golden age of the late 15th century: Saladin had (350 years earlier) liberated the umma from the crusaders; the new Mogul empire brought new culture and civilization from the East to the Arabs; Europe had not, quite, mastered its Renaissance; the golden horde had been absorbed and the Muslims had military superiority; Islam was paramount.
1500 is the turning point:
• In 1492 Grenada finally surrendered to the Spanish Christians;
• In 1529 the Christians won a decisive, pivotal victory at Vienna; and
• In 1571 the Holy League defeated the Turkish fleet at Lepanto.
Hammer blow after blow pounded the Muslim empire. It would get worse when, in the mid 18th century, the Brits dismantled the Mogul Empire and replaced it with their own Indian empire.
Many modern Muslims, especially those of Arabic/Persian/West Asian ethnicity, are enraged because they can see, now, that the world which surrounds their spiritual home raced ahead - socially, politically, technologically, militarily and economically – while Turkey, Persia, Arabia, North Africa and West Asia sat on their duffs, smoking their hookas, sipping their chai and dreaming of past glories. (Sound like France?) They understand, and are enraged, that their ancestors were lazy and corrupt and pissed away a great, powerful empire which might have been a springboard for creating a unified Muslim world. In short they see 500 years of wasted opportunities and they see the consequences: they are forced to leave their ‘homelands’ to seek better futures in foreign, unfriendly, pagan lands – the lands of the people who, just a few centuries ago, bowed and scraped when they met a Muslim.
Humiliation.
Not just the individual humiliation which happens, day after day, year-in and year-out, when one is treated as a second class citizen – even by the other recent immigrant who runs the grocery store; there is a deeper, more painful group humiliation which comes from being assumed, by the ruling majority, to be second rate. Ask Québecers about this.
Now top that up with a steady diet of corrupt kings and princes and rude, crude, buffoonish tinpot dictators like Muammar Khadafi; add a dash of 6 Day War and then Saddam Hussein and years and years of bad jokes about Arab tanks (all reverse gears); now add Desert Storm; watch a few million Jews defeat and defeat and defeat again scores of millions of Arabs; then comes 9/11 and a whole new round of anti-Muslim images in film and on TV; there is more, overt racism after 9/11, too; then the invasion of Afghanistan then Iraq; and it goes on and on … is it any wonder that many, many young Arab men (already poor, already ill-educated (as the poor most often are, regardless of race or creed), already poorly integrated into the mainstream society (as the ill educated poor almost always are)) are enraged?
I have no particular interest in or knowledge of Islam. I have read that (in terms of proselytizing) it is the most ‘successful’ of the great religions. I do know that many Muslims believe that their religion is under attack – it doesn’t matter why they believe that, it doesn’t matter if their belief is without foundation; what matters is that they (many of ‘em) do believe that ‘we’ (all the rest of us, including the Chinese and the Indians) are out to get them. (Speaking only re: the Turkic people in Xinjiang province of China, that’s probably true. There is an overt (Han) Chinese programme aimed at swamping the ethnic Uygur people with Han Chinese and, at best, marginalizing Islam. The Chinese government is ’tolerant’ of ’minority’ religions, provided they toe the party line.)
So there we have it: most Muslims are poor – no matter where they live. Worse, because we have (electronically) shrunk the world they know they are poor. Most Muslim countries are ‘backwards’ – technologically dependent upon the West (and maybe the East, too). Many (most?) Muslims feel under siege. Young Muslims, like young people everywhere, want ‘something better’ right now and they are frustrated when the existing system (for getting ‘something better’) seems closed to them – especially to those already in the West. Is rage so surprising?
What can we do about it?
What should we do about it?
I don’t know.
To those who managed to get all the way to the end: sorry this was so long, I’m too lazy to do a proper job of editing.
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Edit: deleted a word - stagnated - which is not true and replaced it with a phrase which is better
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Further, and I wish I had read this before I wrote my earlier (today) diatribe, here is a view from the UK, from today’s Globe and Mail. It is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060810.wxcoash10/BNStory/specialComment/home
I think Canadian Muslims probably share many of the views Ash ascribes to their British coreligionists and for the same reasons:
1. Military operations in Afghanistan;
2. The generally libertine nature of our major cities – where, as in Britain – most Muslims live, and the socially conservative Muslim critique of it; and
3. Stephen Harper’s views on Israel/Lebanon.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060810.wxcoash10/BNStory/specialComment/home
I think Canadian Muslims probably share many of the views Ash ascribes to their British coreligionists and for the same reasons:
1. Military operations in Afghanistan;
2. The generally libertine nature of our major cities – where, as in Britain – most Muslims live, and the socially conservative Muslim critique of it; and
3. Stephen Harper’s views on Israel/Lebanon.
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Edward,
Well done, Sir. Best summary of the problem facing the world that I have yet read.
Well done, Sir. Best summary of the problem facing the world that I have yet read.
Lots of flames in here. I'll add my two cents, hoping not to start a new fire.
To Edward Campbell and all the others who can't see the forest for the trees, my point is: The root cause of war in the Holy Land is religion. This region simply cannot be understood with politics and history alone.
The nation of Israel is made of two parts: the Jewish people (Am Israel) and the land (Eretz Israel). Read the scriptures for the details on how they won this land by war. Israel is a strong nation only when it is gathered on that land. However, Jewish history is a repetition of God’s anger, destruction, exile and redemption. In exile, Jews are stripped of nationhood and hated by all. They do not fight their tormentors, but die or run in shame. With the Jews in exile, Palestine was desolate and without king. As the Jews suffered, so did their land.
With the Nazi holocaust, it was understood by Jews and Christians alike that 1900 years of exile and the death of millions was an extraordinarily severe punishment for an extraordinarily grave crime (the rejection of Jesus); men (the UN) judged it was enough. What was God’s judgement? In the Bible, victory at war is given to Jews only when they obey God’s commandements (e.g. Joshua 7). The stunning military victories of the contemporary Israelis are taken as proof of God’s aproval.
Muslims consider Jews to be cursed by Allah (Qur'an 2;65-66, 4;160, 5;78-79, and many more). They are even denied humanity (5;64, 62;5). therefore, a faithful Muslim cannot sign a peace treaty with a Jew. Since Allah chased the Jews from their land (57;29, 59;2-4), and since its conquest by the Arabs in 635, the Holy Land (the whole thing) is considered Muslim territory to be liberated. Still today, this is the goal of Hezbollah and Hamas, among others.
For Jews to stop fighting now would be desobeying God’s commandement. For Muslims to accept Jewish rule in any part of the Holy Land would mean overruling Allah’s condemnation of this evil people. Both are sinful; there simply cannot be peace in the Holy Land.
To find out how the story end, read the scriptures, starting with Ezekiel 36-40. It is not pretty.
To Edward Campbell and all the others who can't see the forest for the trees, my point is: The root cause of war in the Holy Land is religion. This region simply cannot be understood with politics and history alone.
The nation of Israel is made of two parts: the Jewish people (Am Israel) and the land (Eretz Israel). Read the scriptures for the details on how they won this land by war. Israel is a strong nation only when it is gathered on that land. However, Jewish history is a repetition of God’s anger, destruction, exile and redemption. In exile, Jews are stripped of nationhood and hated by all. They do not fight their tormentors, but die or run in shame. With the Jews in exile, Palestine was desolate and without king. As the Jews suffered, so did their land.
With the Nazi holocaust, it was understood by Jews and Christians alike that 1900 years of exile and the death of millions was an extraordinarily severe punishment for an extraordinarily grave crime (the rejection of Jesus); men (the UN) judged it was enough. What was God’s judgement? In the Bible, victory at war is given to Jews only when they obey God’s commandements (e.g. Joshua 7). The stunning military victories of the contemporary Israelis are taken as proof of God’s aproval.
Muslims consider Jews to be cursed by Allah (Qur'an 2;65-66, 4;160, 5;78-79, and many more). They are even denied humanity (5;64, 62;5). therefore, a faithful Muslim cannot sign a peace treaty with a Jew. Since Allah chased the Jews from their land (57;29, 59;2-4), and since its conquest by the Arabs in 635, the Holy Land (the whole thing) is considered Muslim territory to be liberated. Still today, this is the goal of Hezbollah and Hamas, among others.
For Jews to stop fighting now would be desobeying God’s commandement. For Muslims to accept Jewish rule in any part of the Holy Land would mean overruling Allah’s condemnation of this evil people. Both are sinful; there simply cannot be peace in the Holy Land.
To find out how the story end, read the scriptures, starting with Ezekiel 36-40. It is not pretty.
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Edward,
nicely done. You have encapsulated Bernard Lewis' book, What Went Wrong? The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East, perfectly, in one post.
nicely done. You have encapsulated Bernard Lewis' book, What Went Wrong? The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East, perfectly, in one post.
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Nicely put Edward (I wish I had your skill with words), though I have to disagree with your reasoning as to WHY Muslims are enraged.
Muslims aren't mad because their "ancestors were lazy and corrupt and pissed away a great, powerful empire". That's like saying Italians are pissed today because the Roman empire is no more. That argument doesn't hold.
Nor are they mad when "they are forced to leave their ‘homelands’ to seek better futures in foreign, unfriendly, pagan lands". Who would this anger be directed to? There are many immigrants of various religions that come to Canada for a better life - do they feel the same way, or is that just Muslims?
I believe that this CURRENT "rage" stems from the injustice in Palestine and the current conflict in Lebanon. Yes, we've been down this road before, but when you think about rage, and I mean real RAGE, it is not the loss of "past glories" or certain anti-Muslim images spread throughout the media that invoke this feeling.
The real rage stems from witnessing atrocities being committed against a defenceless, poor people. Your people. Watching their land taken away, watching their freedoms taken away, watching their very rights as human beings taken away. You witness this and tell me you don't feel rage.
Muslims aren't mad because their "ancestors were lazy and corrupt and pissed away a great, powerful empire". That's like saying Italians are pissed today because the Roman empire is no more. That argument doesn't hold.
Nor are they mad when "they are forced to leave their ‘homelands’ to seek better futures in foreign, unfriendly, pagan lands". Who would this anger be directed to? There are many immigrants of various religions that come to Canada for a better life - do they feel the same way, or is that just Muslims?
I believe that this CURRENT "rage" stems from the injustice in Palestine and the current conflict in Lebanon. Yes, we've been down this road before, but when you think about rage, and I mean real RAGE, it is not the loss of "past glories" or certain anti-Muslim images spread throughout the media that invoke this feeling.
The real rage stems from witnessing atrocities being committed against a defenceless, poor people. Your people. Watching their land taken away, watching their freedoms taken away, watching their very rights as human beings taken away. You witness this and tell me you don't feel rage.
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:Bo said:
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Maybe if they stopped "raging" and got on with working a system they wouldn't need to be so poor.....and what atrocities, just out of curiosity, had Israel committed in the last few years?....and what land have they "taken" away in the last few years?.....and how have the victims of missile attacks and suicide bombers been anything but "defenseless poor people"?
..and when do I get my wish that the whole area flies off into space?
..and when do I get my wish that the whole area flies off into space?
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he cites the Bible and mythology, and you congratulate him on an insightful post? That's why nobody takes either of you seriously, kids.
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paracowboy said:
He is citing the Qur'an and The book of Ezekiel, as well as the Bible. It looks like he has done actual research into the religious idealogies of each side, provided us with credible references, and posted an objective argument. So yes Paracowboy, I congratulate him.
After all, isn't it religion that started this whole mess?
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Bo said:
Atrocities against defenseless poor people? Oh, you mean like strapping on a bomb belt and blowing yourself iup n a crowded restaurant, bus, or mall filled with defenseless people.. Or maybe hijacking 4 civil airliners full of defenseless people and crashing them into buildings full of other defenseless people?
Give your head a shake, THey are poor because they can't forget their past glories, real or imagined. They would rather sit and work themselves into a frenzied hatred as the world passes them by in leaps and bounds, rebuffing every olive branch offered them. They are the architects of their own fate.
BTW, Did you ever notice how these enraged warriors hide behind their children while Israeli troops stand in front of theirs?
T
TMM
Guest
Edward, you've obviously done your research; I'll read it tonight to see how much of it I agree with.
Pardon my French, but WTF? ??? I have been a member of two Christian religions and not once in 36 years have I ever heard of this. I would love to know, and would be willing to read any links available to Jewish scholars or religious text which states what you posted. I can't say much more on the above quote because I know it would get me banned!
Of course there is rage. My ancestors lived though centuries of war. The difference being that in 1968 when one young man felt such rage he didn't set everyone else on fire but only himself. He got his point across without hurting anyone else. No one was strapping bombs onto their bodies and taking out other people. None of them thought it a bright idea to gain support by instilling fear and blowing people up half a world away.
joaquim said:
Pardon my French, but WTF? ??? I have been a member of two Christian religions and not once in 36 years have I ever heard of this. I would love to know, and would be willing to read any links available to Jewish scholars or religious text which states what you posted. I can't say much more on the above quote because I know it would get me banned!
Bo said:
Of course there is rage. My ancestors lived though centuries of war. The difference being that in 1968 when one young man felt such rage he didn't set everyone else on fire but only himself. He got his point across without hurting anyone else. No one was strapping bombs onto their bodies and taking out other people. None of them thought it a bright idea to gain support by instilling fear and blowing people up half a world away.
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We're all in this together, don't think your wars will not affect our lives
Tamouh
You are not on my side, it makes me sick to think of you as a Canadian citizen, and a X member of the CF. You said you are a product of that region I can see that you have the same 2000 yr old f-ed up way of thinking. It's not about land, or looking for a peaceful solution it's about KILLING all the Jews they can ! & now they would like to KILL all the people that didn't think the f-ed way they do !
You said let the UN security council fix it, LOL what a sh@t pit that is !
Middle eastern culture WTF, that's why we are in this spot !
Israel should say 1 more rocket hits our cities and we will tack. nuke you, the Palestinians, Syria & Iran.These country's are so f-ed they don't know they lost, hit them with a bigger club, maybe killing a million or so will do something ! , all they know is killing, give it back to them ! they should be exterminated, they can't live in peace !
The U.S. did it to Japan to save lives ! Israel maybe should be thinking the same way.
That's my rant !
Tamouh
You are not on my side, it makes me sick to think of you as a Canadian citizen, and a X member of the CF. You said you are a product of that region I can see that you have the same 2000 yr old f-ed up way of thinking. It's not about land, or looking for a peaceful solution it's about KILLING all the Jews they can ! & now they would like to KILL all the people that didn't think the f-ed way they do !
You said let the UN security council fix it, LOL what a sh@t pit that is !
Middle eastern culture WTF, that's why we are in this spot !
Israel should say 1 more rocket hits our cities and we will tack. nuke you, the Palestinians, Syria & Iran.These country's are so f-ed they don't know they lost, hit them with a bigger club, maybe killing a million or so will do something ! , all they know is killing, give it back to them ! they should be exterminated, they can't live in peace !
The U.S. did it to Japan to save lives ! Israel maybe should be thinking the same way.
That's my rant !
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mythologyBo said:
mythology
mythology
not even close to the whole truth. Perhaps if YOU did some actual research, you'd realize that. I have a post with a list of over 40 books on the subject. Pick a few and start reading.
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this is across the line. Do not repeat it.bilton090 said:
