Our 'maybe' new recce vehicle

[Recce41]

Its the 32, as far as I was told by the D&M fellas. I'm one of the last True Recce/CADMs fellas here at the school. So I hope to score the SA and Astan trip. I would be better than, Recces down the Lawfield.

 

[Infanteer]

A question for you Armoured Recce types; what's your opinion on something like the Chenowth for a "close recce" vehicle?  Maybe as something to detach off from a Troop of LUVW or Coyotes in a harbour for sustainment?

www.chenowth.com

 

[Recce41]

Its a nice lil kick ass veh. It would be great for Light Recce, just as back in the old 1st troop (para) days. Or for a LO or Sig veh. It could be loaded up in a MLVW and used in the A2 or B esh.

 

[Infanteer]

I looked at it not as a "LUVW"-type vehicle, but rather as an ATV-plus.  Although SOC units seem to like it for DA things, I'm a little leery about it considering that Iraq has turned IED's from a battlefield occurence to a major form of offence.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

For deep strike SOF 'Direct Action' type missions, the Chenowth has certainly found a role as a fast weapons carrier.   It's extremely lightweight (able to put into a CH-53 or CH-47, or be airdropped from   a palletized parachute setup), able to mount a .50 or MK-19, or even TOW on, and very fast and capable of traversing difficult DRY terrain.   So for a mission where you require a 'fast attack vehicle' ie. raiding an airfield (ie. Israelis at Entebbe), destroying a fuel dump, SCUD launcher hunting (SAS in Iraq) or hitting other point targets in a suprise, fast, hard hitting, get-in/get-out raid type mission in the enemy's rear areas, it's great.

However, as a dedicated recce. vehicle as part of a more conventional force for use in an offensive or patrol role, I'm a bit more leery.   It has NO protection and very little room to stow kit, POLs, rations or water.   Also, from conversations I've had from guys that use these, they're maintenance intensive in that alot of the running gear, shocks and struts are exposed and get damaged very easily, thus creating a logistical nightmare for units that don't have sky-high SF operating budgets.

To throw in my 2 cents, I say they'd be great for somebody like JTF-2 or the new JATF in an offensive weapons carrier mode for raid type missions where you need a lightweigh, easily air-transported motorized platform, but for conventional armoured recce, there are better vehicles out there.

 

[a_majoor]

So Matt, if the Chenworth is overly specialized for doing recce, is this the "upper boundry" for a recce vehicle? http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/35535/post-289802.html#msg289802 , or would you go farther than this?

In the Full Spectrum Ops environment, I am curious as to what sorts of changes you would make to the LAR organization and equipment, given your practical experience?

 

[Matt_Fisher]

As I was discussing with Infanteer at AUSA, the US Army's had considerable success using Gage-Textron's modernised V-150 Commando as an armored patrol/convoy escort vehicle.  It's smaller than a Coyote/LAV-25, able to mount a variety of weapons platforms and has the provision for a team of dismounted riflemen to be carried. 

The Chenowth is a very specialized vehicle and fills a role in SOF Raid missions, but not a practical choice for a mech. recce. vehicle.

Your idea which CASR also touched on regarding the Grizzly is an interesting one, but it seems that CLS has made the decision that the Grizzly's time is done.

In an ideal world, something like a recce'ized version of the CV90 would be great for mech/armoured formations and for the light formations who require as much of a lightly armoured, air portable weapons carrier as they do a recce. vehicle, the Wiesel should be considered.

 

[George Wallace]

For deep strike SOF 'Direct Action' type missions, the Chenowth has certainly found a role as a fast weapons carrier............To throw in my 2 cents, I say they'd be great for somebody like JTF-2 or the new JATF in an offensive weapons carrier mode for raid type missions where you need a lightweigh, easily air-transported motorized platform, but for conventional armoured recce, there are better vehicles out there.

(Just shortened Matt's quote, to use as a ref.)
I agree with what Matt is saying, that this would only fill a role in a very small percentage of 'specialized' Recce Tasks.   As Matt pointed out it is basically unarmoured and would not offer much protection for the traditional Armd Recce tasks that would be faced a large percentage of the time.   His points on the Cadillac Gage Commando being used for Convoy Escort would be worth a further look at, if the MPs are going to take on a larger role and cover some of these tasks, but again not a vehicle that the Recce guys would find suitable to conduct their tasks.   I think the Grizzly option may be good for the Infantry Recce Platoons and Armd Recce Asslt Troops, and the odd men like RRB and D&S guys.

I am impressed that we are looking at the Nalay (or whatever we are calling that Mamba variant), but then again, like the G-Wagen it may not be 'the Recce Veh' that we need.  I'll wait out on this one.  I am used to doing Recce in open Jeep and Lynx.  Both had their advantages.  The Lynx had some armour protection.  The Jeep was close to the ground, should you want to bail out.  Etc., etc.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

In the Full Spectrum Ops environment, I am curious as to what sorts of changes you would make to the LAR organization and equipment, given your practical experience?

Based on my observations, Marine Corps LAR battalions will largely be parcelled out with each company being attached to either a battalion or regimental sized task force organization.

Within the company, I'd like to see our 81mm mortars replaced with 120s as the 81s cannot cover the frontage that our company will occuppy when deployed.  Our AT/TOW vehicles desperately need replacing of the M-901 Emerson turrets.  I would like to see a rifle platoon added which would mimic the Canadian 'Assault Troop', be equipped with Bison APCs and have a strength of 3 Marine rifle squads.  However this is not such a priority for the MC, so realistically, I'd prefer to see the mortar and TOW sections be given a secondary tasking where you consolidate weapons platoon into the 2 Mortar carriers (sans mortars) and an LAV-Logistics (which is normally attached to the mortar section as an ammo carrier) and form an expedient assault troop.  When conductin SASO operations, our TOWs were only really useful as a mounted OP with their long range thermal and optical sights, otherwise they didn't have much use.  Due to ROEs, our mortar section was only used for illum missions at night and the majority of the time, their location at our FOB didn't allow them to cover the ground in which the line platoons were operating.

 

[Recce41]

Matt
What a waste, mortars can do a lot, and quicker that mud gunners with a 777. As for it being a Spec veh. I would take one, add a lil, extras such as a side rack, a lil bigger engine, and upgrade the front end.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

I'm not disagreeing that mortars are a tremendous asset, it's just that our 81s range cannot cover the frontage that our company takes up.  If we went with a 120mm mortar our mortar section would be much more capable of providing fires for the entire company, not just portions of it which they're within supporting range of.

 

[George Wallace]

The 120 has a very versatile and wide variety of munitions, and it would be an asset in any Armour or Infantry org.  But now we are straying off the track.......

 

[DG-41]

But now we are straying off the track...

It's good for Recce to get off the roads once and a while.

DG

 

[Allen]

Back to the subject of the Nyala, here is today's story from CP:

Canadian army to buy 50 light-armoured vehicles from South Africa
 
Stephen Thorne
Canadian Press

Friday, November 18, 2005

OTTAWA (CP) - The Canadian army is buying 50 light-armoured vehicles from South Africa, and expects delivery early next year so the next deployment of soldiers can use them in Afghanistan, The Canadian Press has learned.

The $120-million purchase has been deemed an "urgent operational requirement," and will boost the safety of soldiers patrolling the dangerous region where 2,000 fighting troops are to deploy in southern Afghanistan.

In total, Defence is spending $234 million on new equipment for the mission, including new radios, hand-held satellite phones and diesel-powered all-terrain vehicles, senior government sources said Friday.

Delivery is expected in February or early March, coinciding with the start of Canada's newest mission in Afghanistan, the sources said on condition of anonymity.

The military has been using several of the Nyala mine-resistant vehicles initially purchased from South African national police since Canada first sent about 2,000 soldiers to fight the war on terrorism around Kandahar in 2002.

The area is one of the most heavily mined regions of the most heavily mined country in the world. Insurgents have also stepped up roadside and suicide bomb attacks on allied forces in the area in recent months.

Two Canadian soldiers suffered minor wounds when a roadside bomb exploded next to their armoured patrol in Kabul in September. The military has since decided to add reinforcing plates to its existing armoured vehicles.

Four of the seven Canadians who have died in Afghanistan in the last three years were killed by set explosive devices - two by anti-tank mines and one by a suicide bomber.

Billed by its makers - South Africa-based BAE Land Systems - as a "highly adaptable, multi-purpose, four-by-four," the 11-man vehicles are ballistically reinforced, jeep-like troop carriers.

"This vehicle offers a high degree of protection against vehicle mines and small arms," says one supplier, Paramount Group.

Earlier this week, the government decided to postpone the combined purchase of $12.1 billion worth of helicopters, transport aircraft and search-rescue planes.

The South African purchase is different because the vehicles are considered essential to the mission the Canadian troops are undertaking - hunting Taliban and al Qaida fighters in the desert and mountains near Kandahar.

The Nyalas are being purchased "off the shelf," without any special requirements.

http://www.canada.com/news/national/story.html?id=1fa39a45-e8ee-4581-8b94-6d4abcf09618

I don't get the impression that these vehicles are to be used for "recce"; more like a more mine-resistant substitute for the APC.

 

[Kirkhill]

http://www.rafael.co.il/web/rafnew/products/land-stalker.htm

Rafael is just announcing their new Advanced Scout and Recce Vehicle.  It marries the Toplite surveillance system and the Valuk 6x6.  The concept looks vaguely familiar.

Rafael Presents Advanced Stalker ASRV (Armored Scout Reconnaissance Vehicle) on VALUK 6x6
 
 
(Source: Rafael; dated Nov. 7, web-posted Nov. 17, 2005)
 
 
HAIFA, Israel --- RAFAEL Armament Development Authority displayed a new ASRV - Armored Scout and Reconnaissance Vehicle, together with Sistemska Tehnika (Slovenia) at the Defense exhibition in Gornja Radgona, Slovenia. 

The ASRV is a multi-task reconnaissance vehicle based on the VALUK 6X6 vehicle from Sistemska Tehnika Slovenia. The ARSV is equipped with Rafael's newly developed Remote Control Weapon Station (RCWS) and a Surveillance system based on Rafael's TOPLITE electro-optic (EO) day/night targeting & acquisition system. Both are mounted on a mast and are fully operated by a Battle Management System (BMS) which can slave the RCWS to the EO. 

The TOPLITE enables observation, target detection, reconnaissance and identification by using various sensors including 3rd generation FLIR, CCD and a laser range finder. TOPLITE features both manual and automatic target tracking. 

Rafael has extensive experience in the field of reconnaissance and surveillance. Its systems are deployed and operational. 


Rafael designs, develops, manufactures and supplies a wide range of advanced defense systems. These leading edge products include naval, air and ground precision weapons, electro-optic systems, electronic warfare (EW) systems, Command, Control, Communications, Computers and Intelligence (C4I) systems, acoustic defense systems, armored protection and training systems. 

-ends- 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

November 18, 2005 - 18:08

Canadian army to buy 50 light-armoured vehicles from South Africa

STEPHEN THORNE

OTTAWA (CP) - The Canadian army is buying 50 light-armoured vehicles from South Africa, and expects delivery early next year so the next deployment of soldiers can use them in Afghanistan, The Canadian Press has learned.

The $120-million purchase has been deemed an "urgent operational requirement," and will boost the safety of soldiers patrolling the dangerous region where 2,000 fighting troops are to deploy in southern Afghanistan.

In total, Defence is spending $234 million on new equipment for the mission, including new radios, hand-held satellite phones and diesel-powered all-terrain vehicles, senior government sources said Friday.

Delivery is expected in February or early March, coinciding with the start of Canada's newest mission in Afghanistan, the sources said on condition of anonymity.

The military has been using several of the Nyala mine-resistant vehicles initially purchased from South African national police since Canada first sent about 2,000 soldiers to fight the war on terrorism around Kandahar in 2002.

The area is one of the most heavily mined regions of the most heavily mined country in the world. Insurgents have also stepped up roadside and suicide bomb attacks on allied forces in the area in recent months.

Two Canadian soldiers suffered minor wounds when a roadside bomb exploded next to their armoured patrol in Kabul in September. The military has since decided to add reinforcing plates to its existing armoured vehicles.

Four of the seven Canadians who have died in Afghanistan in the last three years were killed by set explosive devices - two by anti-tank mines and one by a suicide bomber.

Billed by its makers - South Africa-based BAE Land Systems - as a "highly adaptable, multi-purpose, four-by-four," the 11-man vehicles are ballistically reinforced, jeep-like troop carriers.

"This vehicle offers a high degree of protection against vehicle mines and small arms," says one supplier, Paramount Group.

Earlier this week, the government decided to postpone the combined purchase of $12.1 billion worth of helicopters, transport aircraft and search-rescue planes.

The South African purchase is different because the vehicles are considered essential to the mission the Canadian troops are undertaking - hunting Taliban and al Qaida fighters in the desert and mountains near Kandahar.

The Nyalas are being purchased "off the shelf," without any special requirements.

http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/politics/news/shownews.jsp?content=n111863A

 

[Sandbag]

My apologies for not reading all posts before answering, but the NYALA is not at this time becoming our new recce vehicle.  The LUVW C&R is still going to be that beast.  The NYALA is being purchased as a mine-resistant vehicle to carry troops in situations where the LAVIII is not going to be used.  Most people on this site are aware of the configuration of the unit going over and as such the Light Patrol Vehicle (LPV) coy needed something a little bigger than the LUVW that would get them into ops.  This was the quick solution, for an immediate op requirement.
Cheers
Sandbag

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Probably the reason the thread is named "Our 'maybe' new recce vehicle", but not a big deal. With the way things change daily anymore, it's hard to tell what we'll be using or doing six months from now. Thanks anyway.

 

[bossi]

Interesting - a friend of mine sent me an e-mail suggesting it might even be the CASSPIR ... (?)
Thus, I'm left wondering whether the DND news release specified "11 person crew", or whether the journalist made a "leap in logic" ... (i.e. the CASSPIR is listed as 14 crew, the NYALA as 11 ... )

Sure leaves me wondering if DND isn't just simply sub-contracting acquisition advice to SFU ...

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/mp1-casspir.htm
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/mp1-casspir2.htm

Nyala:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RG-31
Casspir:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casspir

P.S.   LMAO at quote from Widipedia ... which clinches this debate, in my cynical mind ...

"... It is finding favor with nongovernmental organizations requiring a vehicle with a non-aggressive appearance to protect their personnel against the threat of landmines.  ..."

:

 

[Sandbag]

It is confirmed as NYALA and will be shipped directly to theatre and outstanding quote from Widipedia ;D