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Op PRESENCE/Mali (Cdn mission/s, sitreps, etc. - merged)

Hmm. Of course nobody has said what we should do... every option leads to criticism by everyone.
1. Send ground troops= "Oh, sending soldiers to die are we?"
2. Don't send ground troops= "Why aren't we supporting our ally France and aiding Mali?"
3. Don't do much, but do something... kind of= "We aren't doing enough to help"

If Dallaire said we should do one thing, there will be people that criticize, and people that agree, no matter what.\

And yes, people will die either way, but perhaps helping more than what the government(corrected) is doing could save the lives of more people.

Again, go ahead and correct me if something is not correct to you, but this all can go either way... Maybe to some people a 17 year old shouldn't be voicing their opinions, since some of you have actual experience with the CF, or anything related, but young insight is what the years to come will include of course.. sorry if my responds "aren't good enough," but I like to have a little conversation about military affairs on this site because basically nobody I know has an interest like I do.

Respectfully,

 
Again, I wasn't critiquing you specifically.  If you have opinions -- preferably informed by experience and/or reading widely -- then by all means, offer up suggestions.  Yes, they may get criticized.  If the responses are "STFU; you're only 17," then I imagine the Mods will step in  (that's why the site owner pays them all that extra 'Mod pay'  ;)  ).  If the criticism is valid and equally informed, then there should be improved understanding all around, and everyone benefits.

Personally, I haven't offered any options because, as stated, I don't think a CF deployment is justified in the numbers, and for the length of time, required to actually make a difference.

 
B.Dias said:
Hmm. Of course nobody has said what we should do... every option leads to criticism by everyone.
1. Send ground troops= "Oh, sending soldiers to die are we?"
2. Don't send ground troops= "Why aren't we supporting our ally France and aiding Mali?"
3. Don't do much, but do something... kind of= "We aren't doing enough to help"

If Dallaire said we should do one thing, there will be people that criticize, and people that agree, no matter what.\

And yes, people will die either way, but perhaps helping more than what the government(corrected) is doing could save the lives of more people.

Again, go ahead and correct me if something is not correct to you, but this all can go either way... Maybe to some people a 17 year old shouldn't be voicing their opinions, since some of you have actual experience with the CF, or anything related, but young insight is what the years to come will include of course.. sorry if my responds "aren't good enough," but I like to have a little conversation about military affairs on this site because basically nobody I know has an interest like I do.

Respectfully,

Actually, at 17 your opinions really don't count for much officially because you can't vote. But, I must tell you that it is very nice to see a 17 year old who is interested in what his nation is (or isn't as the case may be) up to and whom is educating himself on things that should be important to him when it comes time that he can vote.  I'd much prefer to see a nation of affairs-educated voters than a nation of ill-informed nitwits casting votes based upon nothing but the party flag.

I say - good on you.
 
B.Dias said:
Maybe to some people a 17 year old shouldn't be voicing their opinions, since some of you have actual experience with the CF, or anything related, but young insight is what the years to come will include of course

ArmyVern said:
Actually, at 17 your opinions really don't count for much officially because you can't vote. But, I must tell you that it is very nice to see a 17 year old who is interested in what his nation is (or isn't as the case may be) up to and whom is educating himself on things that should be important to him when it comes time that he can vote.  I'd much prefer to see a nation of affairs-educated voters than a nation of ill-informed nitwits casting votes based upon nothing but the party flag.

I say - good on you.

And just to add on to what Vern said, don't be surprised if your opinions that you hold now change as you gain life experiences.
 
Heard a good discussion as to why a large scale intervention in Mali is not the best idea.

One of the parties opined that due to the nature of AQ, it would end up being a game of whack-a-mole across Northern Africa. As one group is defeated in one country or region, another will pop up and the games start all over again.
 
I am a bit unhappy with my government's position on Mali. France has asked for US support,such as Predator/Reaper UAV's and instead got the amazing excuse from State "we dont support dictators" [Captain Sanogo]. He opposed French intervention because it might jeopardize his own position. With thousands of French troops in country or on the way Sanogo may be looking for an exit strategy. How about killing AQ who are running amok in North Africa ? That would be a bigger priority than who is running Mali this month.

The French are deploying 20 VBCI's and a battery of the Caesar SP 155mm guns.

2012tp12.jpg


caesar_a_l_armee_de_terre.jpg
 
I didn't think you were targeting me, what you said is true, yes..

ArmyVern said:
Actually, at 17 your opinions really don't count for much officially because you can't vote. But, I must tell you that it is very nice to see a 17 year old who is interested in what his nation is (or isn't as the case may be) up to and whom is educating himself on things that should be important to him when it comes time that he can vote.  I'd much prefer to see a nation of affairs-educated voters than a nation of ill-informed nitwits casting votes based upon nothing but the party flag.

I say - good on you.
cupper said:
And just to add on to what Vern said, don't be surprised if your opinions that you hold now change as you gain life experiences.

I cannot vote, however it does not mean I don't want to be aware of the Canadian situations in regards to military and government, exactly, thank you. Well written. My history teacher always rambles about how it's up to the upcoming generation for the future, which my age and around my age.. He ends up halting his discussion because most of the people in my classes usually take it as a joke... it really pains me to see so many people not really care about what they will be involved in soon.. however, what can you do eh? You're interested, others are not..
Back to Mali...
The Whack-a-mole statement would be realistic, I could see it happening, really.. there are so many options possible that it would be a tough decision in regards to what to do.
 
I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry ...  :dunno:

That al Qaeda is alive and operating in North Africa is not in dispute; that it matters to anyone outside of North Africa is debatable.

My initial reaction is that any intervention by any of the Western powers - and that includes our C-17 - is both:

1. A waste of time and effort; and

2. Very likely counter productive because, it seems to me, we you Western soldiers are the best recruiting tools al Qaeda has - it is, otherwise, pretty much a spent force, I think.

I believe that clandestine operations aimed at killing selected leaders and emptying bank accounts is a useful way to proceed. But military operations in Africa should be, for the time being, carried out (however ineptly) by Africans under African leadership - they, the Africans, will not accomplish anything but neither will the French - no matter how good the Foreign Legion might be at killing people - nor the Americans. When, not if, Africa decides that it needs to address its many and deep problems there will be political and military roles aplenty for the West and for the East,* too.

-----
* The new East: mainly China, India, Japan, Korea and Malaysia, as opposed to the old Eastern Bloc which was led by Russia, now a failing state in its own right.

 
More pro intervention talk, this time from Lawrence Solomon, who is usually a thoughtful commentator. While grabbing land, population and resources is an important attribute in military strategy, I have doubts that this will be convertable into capital, influence and military power; mostly because the Islamists are pretty inept when it comes to actually running things (see Egypt), so in this regard I agree with Edward. I also see this article is another call to action, without specifying what we should actually do or how to do it (playing "whack a mole" has diminishing returns, unless you intend to impose a Roman peace on the entire region).

Never the less, we will continue to hear arguments from well meaning people for intervention, so we need to be familiar with them:

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2013/01/18/lawrence-solomon-needed-war-against-jihadists-needed/

Lawrence Solomon — Needed: war against jihadists

Lawrence Solomon | Jan 18, 2013 8:30 PM ET | Last Updated: Jan 18, 2013 8:50 PM ET
More from Lawrence Solomon

West faces Third World War against those who hate them

Two years ago, before President Obama and other Western leaders gave their blessing to the Arab Spring by calling for the ouster of Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak, the Middle East was ruled mostly by secular dictators who made nice to the West while ruthlessly suppressing jihadists. Today, the Middle East is increasingly being ruled by jihadists who hate the West, plot to target Western facilities and take Western hostages, and have an ever-growing land base from which to operate. How’s that working out for us?

The secular state of Mali in the central Sahara is the latest domino to totter, thanks to NATO countries such as France, the U.K., Canada, and the U.S. — the very same countries that are now scrambling to save it. Mali’s undoing began last year when the West short-sightedly decided to overthrow a de facto ally, Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, who was helping the West combat al-Qaeda abroad while he suppressed it at home.

Gaddafi’s overthrow and the anarchy that followed created a free-for-all in the country’s vast arms depots, soon emptied to enable terrorists throughout the Middle East and beyond. Gaddafi’s overthrow unleashed more than arms, however — it also unleashed thousands of Malian rebels living in Libya, members of the Tuareg tribe to whom Gaddafi had provided refuge and who then fought with him against the NATO invaders.

These Tuareg fighters, forced to flee Libya after their patron was deposed, went back to their home country fully armed, where they joined in al Qaeda’s quest to take over Mali. Now the French find they are fighting the same Tuareg in Mali that they fought in Libya.

To add to the ironies, and the witlessness of the West’s Arab experts, the U.S. trained and armed some 1500 Tuaregs and other tribesmen to fight al-Qaeda, not realizing they would switch sides and fight with al-Qaeda against the Mali government and against the West.

The Western nations now fear that the entire Saharan belt — spanning the breadth of Africa — may fall to the jihadists who, no longer contained by Arab dictators, will have acquired vast new lands and endless potential to plan and launch attacks on Western targets.

Much of the north coast of Africa has already become jihadi or jihadi-friendly with secular governments having been overthrown in Egypt, Libya, and Tunisia. In North Africa, only Morocco and Algeria, site of this week’s deadly hostage taking, remain hostile to jihadi takeovers. East of Africa, the jihadists are waging war against a secular tyrant who to date has been their match in ruthlessness — Syria’s Assad. Should he fall, and possibly before, the next domino to fall could be the pro-Western monarchy of Jordan.
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The West glaring miscalculated in thinking largely tribal societies could peacefully and instantly morph into live-and-let-live democracies friendly to the West. It has done the peoples of those countries no favour.

Since the Arab Spring, some 100,000 have died in the violence, 60,000 in Syria alone. At least 600,000 have fled their countries, more than 100,000 of them Christian Copts in Egypt who foresee no co-existence with jihadists. Along with the death and destruction comes disease, hunger and economic suffering — the citizens in all of the affected countries, including the newly democratized ones, had higher incomes under the secular dictatorships.

The West needs to understand that it is at war with a jihadi ideology, waged by strong-willed adherents convinced — with good reason — that they are winning with the help of Allah against weak-willed appeasement-oriented infidels. They will continue to win until the West sees the struggle in ideological terms. Ideologues can’t permanently be bought off; they can’t ever be reasoned with; they can’t easily be defended against, not in a world of global investments and international tourism. They can only be defeated.

Many in the West, citing past British and Russian defeats in Afghanistan as examples, believe that victory would take decades, if victory against jihadists waging holy war is possible at all. This misreads history.

Jihadi warriors for a millennium and a half have waged holy war against other Muslims and non-Muslims alike — this is nothing new. Jihadists have also won and lost their share of battles, and when they have lost they have then accepted defeat.

Some eruptions aside, the Turks maintained peace against enemies who had waged jihad for decades and centuries at a time, as have colonial powers before and after World War I. And until the Arab Spring, secular Muslim dictators throughout the Middle East have effectively neutralized jihadists, who often do not represent mainstream Muslim ­thinking.

The West can defeat today’s jihadists more easily than it has defeated them in the past — they have not become appreciably more militarily capable than the jihadists of old while the West has. But to win what may in future be seen as the Third World War, the West will need to enlist its friends, even when they are distasteful secular dictators such as Mubarak and Gaddafi. To win the Second World War against the Fascists, after all, the West didn’t flinch at joining forces with the communist Soviet Union.

Financial Post

LawrenceSolomon@nextcity.com

As an incidental, this isn't WWIII, but rather WW VI. Start counting with the Seven Years War
 
I understand your reticence to get involved in Africa. After all Canada lacks national interest in the area. France has long been active in its former colonies and I applaud their intervention and so should you.
 
tomahawk6 said:
I understand your reticence to get involved in Africa. After all Canada lacks national interest in the area. France has long been active in its former colonies and I applaud their intervention and so should you.

As much as I love the thought of all the Jihadiists that will die as part of France's coming, I too like many fear it will be for naught.  There was an interview I listened to on CBC Radio the other night with a gentleman in Mali.  He is of the opinion that France will not be able to stem the tide and could not even in 50 years of effort.  He fears it is too late and had gained too much momentum with the youth that are being attracted to the cause.  As I said previously, good hunting to France and the Legion, I really mean it too.

If we could be assured of whacking and stacking all of the bastards and stamping out AQIM etc, then sure get in on the party.  But this is a tar baby waiting and I believe France has just taken their first fatal swing at it, and will suffer the same fate as the fable.  We in the West have spent too much blood and treasure in the sandbox already for SFA.  It's been like thrashing our hand in a bucket of water, looks impressive but just gets you wet and has no lasting concrete effect on it's contents.

 
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Taking out Gaddafi may have been a feel good exercise,but the unintended consequence is the hostage crisis in Algeria. North Africa's oil/gas resources are critical to Europe and are a vulnerability.
 
Each nation has its own interests. The US has an interest in the area and Canada doesn't. I get it and I don't have an issue with it. In North Africa US interest and that of Europe coincide. The US is content to let the French take the lead and hopefully we will provide some meaningful behind the scenes help.
 
tomahawk6 said:
Each nation has its own interests. The US has an interest in the area and Canada doesn't.

Not true. Canada-Mali relations are very strong. Mali is a major recipient of Canadian aid, including I believe, just recently some military aid. Canadian mining companies also have a presence in Mali. Granted, in the big scheme of things, its not much, a couple of hundred million here and there, but if we are willing to spend all that money over the last couple of decades, then we should be ready to give Mali help when it needs it the most.

My :2c: worth.
 
Retired AF Guy said:
Not true. Canada-Mali relations are very strong. Mali is a major recipient of Canadian aid, including I believe, just recently some military aid. Canadian mining companies also have a presence in Mali. Granted, in the big scheme of things, its not much, a couple of hundred million here and there, but if we are willing to spend all that money over the last couple of decades, then we should be ready to give Mali help when it needs it the most.

My :2c: worth.

Well I stand corrected and pleased to be. Very nice contribution Retired Air Force Guy.
 
Retired AF Guy said:
Not true. Canada-Mali relations are very strong. Mali is a major recipient of Canadian aid, including I believe, just recently some military aid. Canadian mining companies also have a presence in Mali. Granted, in the big scheme of things, its not much, a couple of hundred million here and there, but if we are willing to spend all that money over the last couple of decades, then we should be ready to give Mali help when it needs it the most.

My :2c: worth.

You're 2cents is fact, read a little something about it just recently.

What is Canada's role?
Canada has committed to providing logistical support to French forces in Mali. Prime Minister Stephen Harper said on Jan. 14 that in response to a request for assistance from France, Canada will send one Royal Canadian Air Force C-17 cargo plane to Mali, which will remain in operation there for about one week, helping to transport equipment and supplies to the Malian capital, Bamako.

Canada has strong ties to Mali, which is one of the biggest recipients of Canadian foreign aid, having received more than $110 million in 2010-11. Canadian troops and special forces have helped train Mali's military.

When explaining Canada's decision to get involved in the conflict, Harper said in a statement:

"The establishment of a terrorist region in the middle of Africa is of grave concern to the broader international community, including Canada and our close allies."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/01/14/f-mali-faq.html <---
 
Once again, T6, without trying to be too contentious, the situation in Mali is one where we can actually afford to sit out (even if Mali is totally overrun by Islamists, what will they be able to do with it in the end? See Egypt for an example of how the hard line Islamists are taking a State with lots of potential and essentially zeroing it out). OTOH, if we want to go in and actually do something, we need to go in with resources and commitment on a scale and scope that is far beyond what Canada can actually achieve, much less has the willpower to sustain.

So I wish our brothers in the Legion: Godspeed, and safe journey home; but expect only short term remediation of the situation at best.
 
Lets look at a map. The fall of Mali to the jihadists would allow them to threaten Morocco,Algeria and the smaller countries to the south. Niger is the global No. 4 uranium producer. Guinea and Mauritania have iron, while Burkina Faso is a major cotton supplier.

control.jpg
 
Thucydides said:
Once again, T6, without trying to be too contentious, the situation in Mali is one where we can actually afford to sit out (even if Mali is totally overrun by Islamists, what will they be able to do with it in the end? See Egypt for an example of how the hard line Islamists are taking a State with lots of potential and essentially zeroing it out). OTOH, if we want to go in and actually do something, we need to go in with resources and commitment on a scale and scope that is far beyond what Canada can actually achieve, much less has the willpower to sustain.

So I wish our brothers in the Legion: Godspeed, and safe journey home; but expect only short term remediation of the situation at best.

I guess I'm with Thucydides on this one.  To take it a step further just as Canada doesn't have the resources and commitment to resolve the situation in Mali, I question whether the collective West has the resources and commitment to take on the jihadis writ large.  What were really looking at here is a war against a Culture spread right across the Muslim world.  Maybe containment does have some merit as a strategy in this case.  Take the West out of the equation in the conflict perhaps and let this become the internal conflict it really is. 
 
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