Op PRESENCE/Mali (Cdn mission/s, sitreps, etc. - merged)

[tomahawk6]

Mali is not Indochina. I agree that more ground forces will be needed,as well as US air assets and perhaps ground forces. The US can help the French with logistics. I see Operation Serval as being quite winnable.

 

[BrendenDias]

Romeo Dallaire speaks truthful, wise words. He knows from experience, if we stand idle, more people will die..
He obviously does not want another genocide occurring, such as the very one he was caught in the middle of in Rwanda...
A great point about Canada/French/Mali. Some Canadians can speak French, and some even a little French competence, and Canada could have been one of the leaders in this mission, however... our Prime Minister has other ideas...

 

[Kat Stevens]

The government of Canada has other ideas, not the PM.  Where do people get the idea that the PM just wakes up one morning and decides to send troops half way round the world, or not, in this case.

 

[Maxadia]

The government of Canada has other ideas, not the PM.  Where do people get the idea that the PM just wakes up one morning and decides to send troops half way round the world, or not, in this case.

Gee, didn't the evil Mr. Harper personally send all our troops to the 'Stan?  :

 

[dimsum]

The government of Canada has other ideas, not the PM.  Where do people get the idea that the PM just wakes up one morning and decides to send troops half way round the world, or not, in this case.

[tangent]

The same place where the American public thinks their President can force anything he wants (Obamacare being one), rather than ass-kissing the House and Senate to hopefully get enough of a majority to pass the bill without it being changed into something 100% different via something akin to a crappy game of Broken Telephone. 

[/tangent]

 

[Journeyman]

Romeo Dallaire speaks truthful, wise words. He knows from experience, if we stand idle, more people will die..

Truthful? Wise?  Whether we stand idle or not, people are going to die. Nonetheless, he believes that we should do.......something.  What we should do is crucial, yet neither Dallaire, Mathews,.....or you B.Dias.... have stepped-up to say:
- what we should do;
- why we should do it (as in, what effect our "something" would actually accomplish);
- and, even as an after-thought, what our "something" would cost, here in Canada.

So yes, like most 'cause de jour,' standing on the sidelines and demanding "something be done" is the easy part.  I've yet to see anyone take this extra step -- the hard bit -- the bit that acutely affects those who 'do' rather than those who 'say.'  Until that is fleshed out, I see these pronouncements as more disingenuous, than truthful or wise.

It's easy to be idealistic when you're not the one actually doing the "something";  for the "do'ers," a bit more detail is absolutely necessary before jumping onto that bandwagon.

 

[a_majoor]

Sorry T6, but I will have to side with Edward on this one; Mali is not "winable" (at least not with the resources and time anyone seems willing to commit), and whatever the French will achieve will be quite minimal compared to the scale and scope of what actually needs to be done.

I would look to the situation being inflamed across North Africa and Nigeria as a minimum, with Islamist groups dispersing from wherever the French have real power on the ground and resurfacing to spread mayhem across the entire region.

 

[tomahawk6]

Which is why US SF have been training the Army's in the region. This particular terror group were armed from Ghadafi's weapons stock pile. This is an AQ affiliate and seem to be well trained. Historically African rebels dont fare well against the Legion and France has a numbers problem. Perhaps in the growing face of the jihadist threat to their former colonies the Legion might be expanded.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Mali is not Indochina ....

True - but the Viet Cong didn't have international groups supporting it/helping apply pressure on the homeland via kidnappings and threats of attacks in the U.S. the same way AQ does. 

Historically African rebels dont fare well against the Legion ....

You're right, but I think (and I stand to be corrected) this has usually been against a localized bad guy, as opposed to a local franchise of an international bad guy.

I see Operation Serval as being quite winnable.

Only if the resources are there for the amount of time it takes to tame not only AQ in Africa, but affiliates willing to help it out by doing nasties elsewhere (think "whack a mole").  I wish I could be more optimistic....

 

[The Bread Guy]

Meanwhile, CBC says France is asking for Canada's big honkin' plane to stay a bit longer....

Canada's first C-17 transport flight into Mali today brought its initial load of French troops and supplies into the capital city, Bamako.

But as this logistical support begins to play a role in the French military's efforts to combat the al-Qaeda-linked insurgency in the troubled country, France's ambassador to Canada, Philippe Zeller, says French President François Hollande has asked Prime Minister Stephen Harper to extend its mission beyond one week.

The two leaders spoke by telephone yesterday. The readout provided from the prime minister's office about the call didn't indicate that a request for an extension of Canada's mission was part of the conversation, but the French ambassador told CBC News this morning that France would like to continue to use Canada's C-17 beyond the initial one-week period announced by Harper on Monday ....

 

[a_majoor]

I'm not trying to be (too) contentious here T6, and agree with your observation in principle.

The issues I see are the fact that France does not have the manpower or logistics to attack the problem in Mali on the scale and scope required, nor do France or most of the West seem to have the will power for the extended, resource intense deployment that would be needed for the win. Look at Afghanistan; if I were making policy I would have set the provisional end date to 2015, which would have allowed us to not only have a decade fighting the Taliban, developing local infrastructure and institutions, but also given the first cadre of millions of Afghan schoolchildren time to graduate; providing a nucleus for real social and cultural change to take place.

Looking about for a historic example, I remembered reading about the Banana Wars period in the 1900-1930's period. US forces routinely intervened in places like Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua and even Mexico. Wherever they went, they could make impressive short term gains (read Max Boot; The Savage Wars of Peace for a good summary), including what we now call development (roads, hospitals, postal service and even customs serivces were created by the USMC, for example). The Americans of the period evidently believed that American Exceptionalism could be assimilated by example (or maybe osmosis), since they left all these development items in good order for the locals as they withdrew. Culturally, the locals saw these more as as natural resources to exploit, and everything deteriorated from there.

So even SoF units deploying in Mali and whacking huge numbers of insurgents won't have much of a long term effect, and especially won't do much to eradicate the various causes that inflame Islamic radicalization in the region. I'm pretty sure that the GoC has made a similar calculation and done the cost/benefit analysis for Canada (hence the deployment of a single C-17 to assist), so regardless of what we may believe, the French are pretty much on their own for now.

Of course, French history in Indochina may be instructive in other ways. The commitment of logistical support for the French Union forces and a fear of the "Domino Effect" eventually drew large scale American involvement into the region. As for the sorts of difficulties the French faced in Indochina, read Bernard Fall Street Without Joy and Hell in a very small place

 

[Journeyman]

.....France is asking for Canada's big honkin' plane to stay a bit longer....

I guess the key factor is the availability of 3-star +  hotels.  Aircrew rest IS a Flight Safety issue!  :nod:

 

[The Bread Guy]

I guess the key factor is the availability of 3-star +  hotels.  Aircrew rest IS a Flight Safety issue!  :nod:

I thought that was more related to height/"stature"....

 

[The Bread Guy]

From the EU Info-machine products (attached)....

.... The EU training mission in Mali (EUTM Mali) is intended to help improve the military capacity of the Malian Armed Forces in order to allow, under civilian authority, the restoration of the country's territorial integrity. It represents an integral part of the EU's comprehensive approach to the situation in Mali and the Sahel.

EUTM Mali will provide military training as well as train and advise the Malian Armed Forces on command and control, logistics, human resources as well as on international humanitarian law, the protection of civilians and human rights. The mission will not be involved in combat operations.

The Council also appointed Brigadier General François Lecointre from France as EU mission commander. Besides, it estimated the common costs of the operation at EUR 12.3 million for the mandate of 15 months ....

.... In line with the "EU Strategy for Development and Security in the Sahel", the EU's objective is to enable the Malian authorities to:
a. Restore constitutional and democratic order in Mali through the implementation of a credible and consensual road map which foresees free, transparent and fair elections in 2013 and a framework for negotiations with armed groups rejecting terrorism;
b. Re-establish the state's authority throughout the country and redeploy it effectively in a context of peace and reconciliation between communities while respecting the rule of law and human rights;
c. Neutralize organised crime and terrorist threats.

The military training mission, EUTM Mali, will specifically train and advise the Malian Armed Forces (MAF) under the control of legitimate civilian authorities, in order to contribute to restore their military capacity with a view to enabling them to engage in combat operations aiming at restoring the country's territorial integrity.

(....)

Now let's see who's in, with how much and who's out.

 

[GAP]

Truthful? Wise?  Whether we stand idle or not, people are going to die. Nonetheless, he believes that we should do.......something.  What we should do is crucial, yet neither Dallaire, Mathews,.....or you B.Dias.... have stepped-up to say:
- what we should do;
- why we should do it (as in, what effect our "something" would actually accomplish);
- and, even as an after-thought, what our "something" would cost, here in Canada.

So yes, like most 'cause de jour,' standing on the sidelines and demanding "something be done" is the easy part.  I've yet to see anyone take this extra step -- the hard bit -- the bit that acutely affects those who 'do' rather than those who 'say.'  Until that is fleshed out, I see these pronouncements as more disingenuous, than truthful or wise.

It's easy to be idealistic when you're not the one actually doing the "something";  for the "do'ers," a bit more detail is absolutely necessary before jumping onto that bandwagon.

that's strange.....  :crickets:

 

[cupper]

[tangent]

The same place where the American public thinks their President can force anything he wants (Obamacare being one), rather than ass-kissing the House and Senate to hopefully get enough of a majority to pass the bill without it being changed into something 100% different via something akin to a crappy game of Broken Telephone. 

[/tangent]

You're too young to be so cynical. Me on the other hand ... :nod:

 

[Danjanou]

It's easy to be idealistic when you're not the one actually doing the "something";  for the "do'ers," a bit more detail is absolutely necessary before jumping onto that bandwagon.

But JM he wants to personally help

Always dreamed of becoming a soldier, and now is the time to act to make that a reality for the future.

Hmm after deciding to join, going through the recruiting process, completing the needed training to make him deployable I would think he should be ready to go to Mali just in time for the "mission accomplished victory parade" and/or "tea and medals on the objective."  :

 

[Good2Golf]

Romeo Dallaire speaks truthful, wise words. He knows from experience, if we stand idle, more people will die...

So if he knows in his heart of hearts that he should have intervened when he saw the Belgian paratroopers tied up and sitting in the stress position under armed Rwandan army personnel in their compound in Kigali, why does he not now capitalize on his past experiences and suggest MATERIAL ACTION to be taken regarding the First Nations challenge?  All he has said is that we should take action...sure, I'll buy that...but WHAT action do you suggest Monsieur Dallaire?

Regards
G2G 

 

[Journeyman]

that's strange.....  :crickets:

Don't misunderstand -- I wasn't targetting B.Dias specifically.

I haven't heard anyone state what exactly Canada should provide, to what end, and at what cost.  So far, we can't seem to move beyond the sanctimonious hand-wringing phase. 

(which may as well be a scripted template for all of these 'crises'  :boring:  )

 

[Danjanou]

the sanctimonious hand-wringing phase. 

You mean that's not one of the steps of Battle Proceedure now? 8)