Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis

[Retired AF Guy]

Nope, not the first time.

Just the first time anyone has mentioned it.

 

[Armymedic]

IMHO: If this mission gets extended, you will likely see a larger SF task force, and additional Regular Forces support in the form of medical and logistical units being pushed in to form a more substantial logistics chain home. It also would not surprise me if select small groups of Cbt arms have the opportunity to come in the form of force protection.

Conservative government has a majority and is making political hay of this mission. It would not hurt them to expand it now.

 

[The Bread Guy]

IMHO: If this mission gets extended, you will likely see a larger SF task force, and additional Regular Forces support in the form of medical and logistical units being pushed in to form a more substantial logistics chain home. It also would not surprise me if select small groups of Cbt arms have the opportunity to come in the form of force protection.

Conservative government has a majority and is making political hay of this mission. It would not hurt them to expand it now.

As long as folks still support the mission in general (usual caveats re:  any polling), and in spite of the howling of the opposition, this might be enough of a nudge up to increase our presence while still keeping it palatable to the voters.

 

[Zoomie]

select small groups of Cbt arms have the opportunity to come in the form of force protection.

Force protection for what assets?  Our RCAF brethren are fully ensconced on well defended ally installations.  We didn't even use the army as gate guards at Mirage - just off-duty flight crew.

It will be interesting times indeed if this mission gets extended/expanded - maybe a reversal to the budgetary needs?

 

[CougarKing]

IMHO: If this mission gets extended, you will likely see a larger SF task force, and additional Regular Forces support in the form of medical and logistical units being pushed in to form a more substantial logistics chain home.

And speaking of an extended mission (with an  expanded mandate)...

CBC

Canada considers taking fight against ISIS to Libya, Syria
CBC – 2 hours 44 minutes ago

Defence Minister Jason Kenney has indicated the government is not ruling out taking Canada's military mission against the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS) group beyond Iraq — to Syria and Libya.

Evan Solomon, host of CBC Radio's The House, asked Kenney about participating in missions in those countries.

"Well, we're going to look at all of the options," Kenney said an interview broadcast Saturday.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[Tow Tripod]

Say what you want but peace and security is more important in Central Europe than a few thousand wing nuts in the Middle East.

 

[MJP]

Force protection for what assets?  Our RCAF brethren are fully ensconced on well defended ally installations.  We didn't even use the army as gate guards at Mirage - just off-duty flight crew.

Nope,  there may have a time when this was true but I was army and part of the force protection crew in 2003.  It was army folks in 2004 when we were on our way to Kabul and army reservists when I transistioned through in 2006.

 

[Zoomie]

Are we both talking about the same staging base? Mirage (aka UAE)?  My timeframe for the aircrew standing guard would be 2005-2008.

 

[MJP]

Are we both talking about the same staging base? Mirage (aka UAE)?  My timeframe for the aircrew standing guard would be 2005-2008.

Yes, Mirage.  I didn't go through after 2006 so I can't speak onif it changed.  But 2003-2006 it was  combat arms (reg/reg) task.  Before we arrived in 2003 the MPs who had a million people there who did the guard duty.

 

[Armymedic]

Force protection for what assets?  Our RCAF brethren are fully ensconced on well defended ally installations.  We didn't even use the army as gate guards at Mirage - just off-duty flight crew.

Don't limit yourself to the past. The Army will be looking for tasks to play in the new theater as it matures. And this will be especially true if the Conservative renew thier majority in the fall.

 

[Edward Campbell]

CBC News is reporting that "Andrew Joseph Doiron, Petawawa, Ont. [has been] killed in Iraq: 1st Canadian soldier killed in Iraq was based at Garrison Petawawa, according to Canadian Forces"

This is the picture posted by CBC News:

The CBC says he was killed by "friendly fire," specifically: "Members of the Special Operations Forces were mistakenly engaged by Iraqi Kurdish forces following their return to an observation post behind the front lines," and "three other soldiers were injured and were being treated in Iraq."

 

[JS2218]

Very sad. RIP 

And then there's this...

Kurdish official blames Canadians for soldier’s death

BRAM JANSSEN
IRBIL, Iraq — The Associated Press

A Canadian special forces soldier was killed in a friendly fire incident after he and others ignored an order to stay in their car and showed up to the front line unannounced, a spokesman for Iraq’s Kurdish forces said Sunday.

The death Friday of Sgt. Andrew Joseph Doiron marked Canada’s first casualty as part of the U.S.-led coalition’s war on the extremist Islamic State group. Canadian officials could not be immediately reached for comment Sunday on the peshmerga claim, though Canada’s defence minister previously acknowledged Doiron’s death came as a result of “a case of mistaken identity.”

Peshmerga spokesman Halgurd Hekmat said a group of Canadian soldiers showed up unannounced Friday to the village of Bashiq, in Iraq’s Nineveh province near the militant-held city of Mosul. The area had seen heavy fighting against Islamic State militants the previous day.

“When they returned, the peshmerga asked them to identify themselves,” Hekmat told The Associated Press. “They answered in Arabic, that’s when peshmerga started shooting. It was their fault.”

Hekmat added that he doesn’t know why the Canadians were there. “I consider it an improper action by the Canadians and illogical,” he said.

Two Kurdish officials later told the AP that Doiron’s body was flown to Canada early Sunday following a military ceremony at Irbil International Airport. They spoke on condition of anonymity as they were not authorized to brief journalists.

Canada’s defence department on Saturday announced the death of Doiron, a soldier in the Canadian Special Operations Regiment based at Garrison Petawawa, Ontario. Three other Canadian soldiers were wounded in the incident and are in stable condition, Canadian Defence Minister Jason Kenney said.

Canada has 69 special forces soldiers with Kurdish peshmerga fighters in what the government calls an advising and assisting role. They were sent to help train Kurdish fighters last September in a mission that was billed as noncombat with the elite troops working far behind the front lines The fact that Canadian special forces have been training and assisting on the front lines and directing airstrikes has stirred controversy in the country, but Kenney said the rules of engagement will remain the same.

Kenney said Doiron’s death had “nothing to do with combat,” saying it was a case of mistaken identity on the part of Kurdish fighters at night.

“It was caused by a failure of identification. There will be an inquiry,” Kenney said.

The Islamic State group currently holds a third of Iraq and Syria. The U.S.-led coalition began airstrikes targeting the extremists in August.

So far, four other troops have been killed as part of the coalition, not counting Iraqi forces. They include a U.S. Marine presumed lost at sea in October, a Marine killed in a noncombat incident in Baghdad in October, a U.S. Air Force pilot killed in December when his jet crashed in Jordan and a captive Jordanian pilot burned to death in a cage by the Islamic State group.

 

[McG]

The partisan-media controversy now begins.  Hopefully, our politicians can direct themselves away from turning Sgt Doiron into a political tool.

Defence minister disputes Kurdish account of 'friendly fire' incident in Iraq
Michelle Zilio and Emily Chan
CTV News
08 Mar 2015

Defence Minister Jason Kenney is maintaining that Canadian soldiers were well behind the front lines in Iraq when a sergeant was shot and killed in a “friendly fire” incident Friday, despite contradicting reports from Kurdish forces.

A spokesman for the Kurdish forces in Iraq told The Associated Press Sunday that the Canadians showed up to the village of Bashiq, north of Mosul, unannounced and ignored an order to stay in their vehicle. Halgurd Hekmat said: "The peshmerga asked them to identify themselves. They answered in Arabic, that's when peshmerga started shooting."

Speaking to CTV's Question Period Sunday, Kenney disputed the Kurdish account.

“They weren’t on the front lines," said Kenney.

“My understanding is that the observation post where the troops were approaching -- at about 11 p.m. on Friday night, close to Irbil -- was about 200 metres behind the fort line of our troops, so 200 metres from the front. They had been there earlier in the day, and they were returning to the observation post when it was dark out, and apparently it was a case of mistaken identity,” said Kenney.

Sgt. Andrew Joseph Doiron, of the Canadian Special Forces Operations Regiment, was killed. Three other Canadian soldiers were wounded.

Kenney said friendly fire is "regrettably a reality of any kind of military deployment." And while he said an investigation has already commenced with special operations commanders out of Irbil, Kenney didn't commit to an independent investigation.

Despite Friday's incident, Kenney maintained that Canada's role in Iraq is not a combat one.

“This was not a combat operation. They were not in contact with the enemy, with ISIL; rather fire was brought on them as a result of mistaken identity," said Kenney.

But the NDP is questioning that. The party's defence critic says Canadians have been misled by Prime Minister Stephen Harper on the mission in Iraq, who originally told Parliament that Canada's role was to advise and assist the Iraqis.

“We’ve been promised by the prime minister from the beginning that there are not going to be boots on the ground. We’ve got the defence minister claiming that they’re not combat deaths, yet in 2002, when we lost four soldiers to so-called friendly fire to the Americans, they were called the first combat deaths since Korea," Jack Harris said on Question Period.

Harris called for a "full-blown investigation" into Friday's incident.

Liberal defence critic Joyce Murray was careful when commenting on the incident.

“I think it’s early to be speculating or to be linking this with other matters,” she said.

The incident comes as the government prepares to debate whether it will extend Canada’s six-month mission in Iraq. The opposition has been calling for more transparency as the mission’s expiry date – April 7 – approaches.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/defence-minister-disputes-kurdish-account-of-friendly-fire-incident-in-iraq-1.2269444

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The partisan-media controversy now begins.  Hopefully, our politicians can direct themselves away from turning Sgt Doiron into a political tool.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/defence-minister-disputes-kurdish-account-of-friendly-fire-incident-in-iraq-1.2269444

My read of the NDP comments tells me that ship has already sailed and isn't likely to return to port.  Why focus on facts when you can stir the pot right?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

True enough, but for Minister Kenney to make stupid statements such as "It was not at the front because the OP was 200 meters from the front" is like saying "it was not downtown Toronto because it was 200 meters from the corner of King and Bay street". It not only is stupid as a statement, but also sounds stupid to the Canadian population, not to mention dishonest. Even some of the least educated Canadians know that this is not a WWI situation with a specifically defined "line" considered the Front, and that by almost definition, an OP is at a place where fighting is likely and thus "at the front". Minister Kenney's statement makes him either deceitful or ignorant to most people.

Much better was the explanation given by retired Colonel Petrolakos (? not sure on the spelling or exact name) on CTV: The SOF personnel are not involved in combat operations - that is they do not actively participate in actions against the enemy, but their role as adviser and trainer can take them anywhere, including near or at the front, in order to advise properly and assess the training they gave their counterparts. They however, do not fight except when needed to defend themselves. He then indicated that such were the terms of service from the starts of the deployment and that what they were doing at the time of the incident was clearly within those terms.

Why could Kenney not be so clear and forthcoming?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

True enough, but for Minister Kenney to make stupid statements such as "It was not at the front because the OP was 200 meters from the front" is like saying "it was not downtown Toronto because it was 200 meters from the corner of King and Bay street".

because clearly real bullets don't travel further than 200m  :facepalm: ISIS must only shoot at the Kurds with paintball guns???

 

[Eye In The Sky]

True enough, but for Minister Kenney to make stupid statements such as "It was not at the front because the OP was 200 meters from the front" is like saying "it was not downtown Toronto because it was 200 meters from the corner of King and Bay street". It not only is stupid as a statement, but also sounds stupid to the Canadian population, not to mention dishonest. Even some of the least educated Canadians know that this is not a WWI situation with a specifically defined "line" considered the Front, and that by almost definition, an OP is at a place where fighting is likely and thus "at the front". Minister Kenney's statement makes him either deceitful or ignorant to most people.

I disagree.  I also dont expect civilians regardless of occupation or position to understand and be able to articulate military terms and concepts the way serving members do.  We aren't even able to do it ourselves across the RCN, Cdn Army and RCAF, nor between trades and classifications.  Why would we expect any civilian to be able to do something we can't?  Can the average MARS officer explain how all arms call for fire works?  Can an infantry platoon commander speak aabout RMP and ASUW?  If they do will it be without error?

However you have indicated that there is no "front", a concept I suggest civilians see in their head as a straight line between 2 armies.  In my 25 years in uniform (17 army) we never used the term front.  We did use FEBA, LOD, FLOT, Rear areas, and such to identify various areas in the battle space/AOR.  Even in WWII the "front" wasnt a straight line and blue on blue happened.  War is waged by humans and humans make mistakes, more so under stress and under fire.

Concepts like FEBAs and FLOTs might seem trival to many, and IMO those many are the people who are lucky enough to never have to operate in or above them.

If the front is so difficult to point to distinctly on a map because as you say, there really isn't one,  I find it hard to understand how anyone not in theatre can determine if troops are behind, beside, or in front of it. 

When I did army stuff, there were imaginary lines on the ground, say a report line, a phase line, a LOD or a boundary.  200m behind the LOD was not on or across it, it was behind it.  I see 200m behind the FLOT as behind the FLOT.  It's not on it or past it.  It's behind.  If I was told to remain 200m behind a phase line until H hour +5, I was as close as tactically possible to that 200m and there was not a thing wrong with that;  that is how tactical control measures are trained and used in my experience on the ground and in the air.

FWIW, I have done OPs in the BAA as part of a RAS task before, no where near "the front".

I also highly doubt the average Canadian knows what the letters O.P. or L.P. even stand for let alone what they are and how they are used.

Much better was the explanation given by retired Colonel Petrolakos (? not sure on the spelling or exact name) on CTV: The SOF personnel are not involved in combat operations - that is they do not actively participate in actions against the enemy, but their role as adviser and trainer can take them anywhere, including near or at the front, in order to advise properly and assess the training they gave their counterparts. They however, do not fight except when needed to defend themselves. He then indicated that such were the terms of service from the starts of the deployment and that what they were doing at the time of the incident was clearly within those terms.

Why could Kenney not be so clear and forthcoming?

Ref what I said above, expecting a politician to explain military concepts with the clarity a Senior Officer can is unrealistic. 

 

[The Bread Guy]

Much better was the explanation given by retired Colonel Petrolakos (? not sure on the spelling or exact name) on CTV: The SOF personnel are not involved in combat operations - that is they do not actively participate in actions against the enemy, but their role as adviser and trainer can take them anywhere, including near or at the front, in order to advise properly and assess the training they gave their counterparts .... Why could Kenney not be so clear and forthcoming?

Because if the Minister used those words, the headline would be "Minister Admits Canadian Troops Can Be in Combat".  Also, there's that little thing about the PM saying "the troops won't accompany the good guys into the fight".

because clearly real bullets don't travel further than 200m  :facepalm: ISIS must only shoot at the Kurds with paintball guns???

This is what you get when the Message o' the Day is "Canadian troops are not on a combat mission."

Meanwhile, a bit more of the latest from Kurdish media:

The Kurdistan Region’s Peshmerga Ministry has opened an investigation into the shooting incident in which a Canadian military adviser was killed and two others injured near the Bashiqa frontline, north of Mosul.

At 1 a.m. on Saturday morning, a Canadian commando was killed after Peshmerga fighters mistook him and two of his colleagues for Islamic militants and opened fire on them as they approached a frontline at night.

Sgt. Andrew Joseph Doiron, 31, was killed and two other unnamed soldiers injured.

The soldiers were members of the Canadian Special Operations Regiment.

On Sunday, the KRG’s Peshmerga Ministry released a statement saying that the Canadian adviser was killed as a result of “friendly fire”. They have opened an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the incident.

The Ministry also sent its condolences to the family of Doiron, and all Canadians and wished the wounded soldiers a full and speedy recovery.

On Saturday Peshmerga Commander Mosa Gardi on the Bashiqa frontline told BasNews that the Canadian advisors were in Erbil being treated for their injuries.

“On Friday night there was intensive fighting between Peshmerga and IS militants, when the insurgents attacked our forces in Qapani village near Bashiqa, north of Mosul,” said Gardi.

“During fighting the Canadian advisers left their vehicle and walked to the area. They got very close to the fighting without our coordination and when the Peshmerga saw them, they asked who they were. The Canadians answered in Arabic, leading the Peshmerga to believe they were IS militants, and shot them,” revealed the commander.

“They were transferred to Erbil hospital by helicopter,” added Gardi.

He said if it wasn’t for their driver all three may have been shot dead. He told the Peshmerga that they were Canadian advisors and not IS militants ....

 

[Valhrafn]

Very sad. RIP 

And then there's this...

RIP SGT Doiron

Here's part of an article from the CBC:

"When they returned, the peshmerga asked them to identify themselves," Hekmat told the AP. "They answered in Arabic, that's when peshmerga started shooting. It was their fault."

But a high-level Canadian government source disputed that account, telling CBC News that Doiron and three fellow soldiers were a couple hundred metres from the front line and had pre-arranged a rendezvous with Kurdish troops that went awry.

The Canadian team had been at the location earlier in the day "to co-ordinate events to take place later" and had arranged a time to return that night, with pre-determined signals to identify themselves to the Kurdish troops, according to the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "Special forces don't freelance," he said, disputing the Kurdish account that they showed up unannounced. He added that the soldiers had operated using this system before.

The Canadians arrived for the rendezvous and were acknowledged by two separate groups of peshmerga fighters without incident, the source said. A third peshmerga group, however, engaged them by opening fire.

Separately, Defence Minister Jason Kenney was also adamant that the Canadian soldiers were well behind the front lines when Doiron was killed. "They were approaching a Kurdish observation post behind the forward operating line," he said in an interview with CBC News. "They clearly identified themselves, and our understanding is that they were given permission to proceed toward the observation post...."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/andrew-doiron-s-death-in-iraq-sparks-dispute-over-what-happened-1.2986169

 

[Armymedic]

Even some of the least educated Canadians know that this is not a WWI situation with a specifically defined "line" considered the Front, and that by almost definition, an OP is at a place where fighting is likely and thus "at the front".

You are incorrect in your assumption. There are clearly defined front lines in that region.

On Saturday Peshmerga Commander Mosa Gardi on the Bashiqa frontline told BasNews that the Canadian advisors were in Erbil being treated for their injuries.

“On Friday night there was intensive fighting between Peshmerga and IS militants, when the insurgents attacked our forces in Qapani village near Bashiqa, north of Mosul,” said Gardi.

“During fighting the Canadian advisers left their vehicle and walked to the area. They got very close to the fighting without our coordination and when the Peshmerga saw them, they asked who they were. The Canadians answered in Arabic, leading the Peshmerga to believe they were IS militants, and shot them,” revealed the commander

Complete and utter bull crap.