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Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks

jaysfan17 said:
I've had a quick read through the postings in this thread and there's been some interesting points that I've observed from both sides of the fence here. I'm more inclined to side with the non-name changing camp. However, after doing some self reflection of my own I understand why there is a need for a rank change, whether I agree or not is irrelevant, imo. From what I've observed in the military is that rank/position (RSM, Coxswain, etc) means everything. When I was taking part in my pre deployment training (and during deployment), I was one of four OS's in a group of maybe 50. At times there were moments where I wasn't treated with respect when I did have more experience than some of the AB's and a few of the LS's and I was brushed off as just "ordinary". So I do understand the reasoning behind wanting to change the rank names from that perspective.

You're going to get that regardless of what the rank structure.  Even in the Army is not uncommon for Pte and Cpl's to treat PteR and PteB like that.  Its just part of the nature of having a rank structure. Unfortunately you get some people who think that their rank makes them better than people who are a lower rank then them, (some new MCpl's can be pretty bad at this, although you can find it at every rank level). 
 
More in depth on the methodology and findings that led to the chosen rank change.

http://www.navy-marine.forces.gc.ca/en/news-operations/news-view.page?doc=rcn-rank-change-initiative-poll-results-rank-designation-change-decision/kdxnh8ed
 
Saw this on social media.  They totally dropped the ball on potential ranks  :rofl:

 

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Of course, the legal authority of the Commander of the RCN to order a change in the designations of ranks is nil.

Per the National Defence Act,
Ranks of officers and non-commissioned members

21 (1) For the purposes of this Act, the ranks of the officers and non-commissioned members of the Canadian Forces shall be as set out in the schedule.

Designation

(2) A person holding a rank set out in the schedule shall use, or be referred to by, a designation of rank prescribed in regulations made by the Governor in Council but only in the circumstances prescribed in those regulations.

The Regulations referred to are QR&O volume 1, Chapter 3, article 3.01, issued under the authority of the Governor in Council.

So, to change ranks, step 1 is to get the Queen's Regulations and Orders changed...
 
Halifax Tar said:
More in depth on the methodology and findings that led to the chosen rank change.

http://www.navy-marine.forces.gc.ca/en/news-operations/news-view.page?doc=rcn-rank-change-initiative-poll-results-rank-designation-change-decision/kdxnh8ed

Shipmates is the Navy's version of "Team".
 
dapaterson said:
Of course, the legal authority of the Commander of the RCN to order a change in the designations of ranks is nil.

Per the National Defence Act,
The Regulations referred to are QR&O volume 1, Chapter 3, article 3.01, issued under the authority of the Governor in Council.

So, to change ranks, step 1 is to get the Queen's Regulations and Orders changed...

This makes me chortle, just a little. 

Can they get that changed in time for the CANFORGEN coming out in September? 
 
dapaterson said:
Of course, the legal authority of the Commander of the RCN to order a change in the designations of ranks is nil.

Per the National Defence Act,
The Regulations referred to are QR&O volume 1, Chapter 3, article 3.01, issued under the authority of the Governor in Council.

So, to change ranks, step 1 is to get the Queen's Regulations and Orders changed...

Hmmm.....I wonder if a lower deck lawyer will put in a grievance. Or a retired member, just to stir the pot, put up a legal challenge?

I'll just call them all Killicks from now on.
 
QV said:
This makes me chortle, just a little. 

Can they get that changed in time for the CANFORGEN coming out in September?

The RCN's announcement suggests that changing the regulations is part of a background process (quote below, emphasis added)

These new rank designations will be effective upon the issuance of a CANFORGEN on Friday 4 September. At that point, as we begin referring to shipmates using the new rank designations, we will have taken another in our incremental steps to build a more inclusive workplace that appropriately represents our values as a Navy, Force and Nation. Meanwhile, there will of course be a formal process running in the background to codify the change in our orders, regulations, publications and forms. This process is expected to take several years. Amplifying information will roll-out as this process unfolds.

The problem is that the legal foundation of the ranks is the table to the QR&O.  There is no legal authority to refer to CAF members by ranks/designations other than those within the NDA or within the regulations.  A CANFORGEN doesn't trump the law and its associated regulations.


These are regulations under an act requiring GiC approval.  The normal flow, starting at the end, is:

* GG approval of the revised regulations
* TB Ministers, meeting as GiC, recommend revised regulations to GG for approval
* TB Ministers, meeting as TB, approve any financial elements of the proposed regulatory change (likely not applicable in this case)
* DND submits package for approval including rationale for changes and proposed regulations
* DND staff assemble submission package and get CRCN, CDS, CFO (for financial impacts), DM and MND endorsement.
* Department of Justice Lawyers approve changes to regulations, and provide what's called the blue stamp - certifying that the proposed regulations meet the form, fit and function, and have no outstanding legal issues
* Client and their legal advisers review draft regulations, together with staff and lawyers from TB Regulatory Affairs Sector.  This ensures cross-functional questions / issues are understood and addressed.  In the case of ranks; this would be minor; other regulations would undergo more detailed scrutiny to ensure alignment where possible and understanding of any deviations required for unique aspects of the CAF.
* Specialized lawyers draft proposed changes to the regulations (in this case, the changes to the English-language table to QR&O 3.01, column 2, serials 16 and 17).  In this instance it would be trivial; for many other regulations, this is a lengthy and complex process, where lawyers draft the regulations in parallel in English and in French.  Or, in other words, they are not translated from one language into another.
* Client and their legal advisers create drafting instructions for regulatory drafters describing the desired outcomes, the rationale for their choice of instrument, history, relevant legislation and regulations.  Work is also done to prepare Regulatory Impact Analysis Statements and other supporting documentation.


Had the NDA decreed under NDA 21(2) that the Minister could make such changes, the process would be abbreviated - no requirement to go to to the TB ministers and GG.  But Parliament reserved this authority to the GiC, not to the MND or to any CAF member.

(Process geeks can read more about regulatory development at: https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/federal-regulatory-management/guidelines-tools.html.  Note that the majority of CAF regulations are exempt from pre-publication.)
 
Dimsum said:
You mean we stopped?!  :o

I think most people stuck with the last name anyway, as Ordinary/ Able Seaman Bloggins was a bit of a mouthful. So if you weren't on parade or in trouble, the rank was never used. Probably a bad news decision for anyone with the last name Moon though; can see that deterring them from joining.

Now that they've actually made the decision, hope we can get back to operationally critical things, like the shortage of people and lack of parts.

 
dapaterson said:
The RCN's announcement suggests that changing the regulations is part of a background process (quote below, emphasis added)

The problem is that the legal foundation of the ranks is the table to the QR&O.  There is no legal authority to refer to CAF members by ranks/designations other than those within the NDA or within the regulations.  A CANFORGEN doesn't trump the law and its associated regulations.


These are regulations under an act requiring GiC approval.  The normal flow, starting at the end, is:

* GG approval of the revised regulations
* TB Ministers, meeting as GiC, recommend revised regulations to GG for approval
* TB Ministers, meeting as TB, approve any financial elements of the proposed regulatory change (likely not applicable in this case)
* DND submits package for approval including rationale for changes and proposed regulations
* DND staff assemble submission package and get CRCN, CDS, CFO (for financial impacts), DM and MND endorsement.
* Department of Justice Lawyers approve changes to regulations, and provide what's called the blue stamp - certifying that the proposed regulations meet the form, fit and function, and have no outstanding legal issues
* Client and their legal advisers review draft regulations, together with staff and lawyers from TB Regulatory Affairs Sector.  This ensures cross-functional questions / issues are understood and addressed.  In the case of ranks; this would be minor; other regulations would undergo more detailed scrutiny to ensure alignment where possible and understanding of any deviations required for unique aspects of the CAF.
* Specialized lawyers draft proposed changes to the regulations (in this case, the changes to the English-language table to QR&O 3.01, column 2, serials 16 and 17).  In this instance it would be trivial; for many other regulations, this is a lengthy and complex process, where lawyers draft the regulations in parallel in English and in French.  Or, in other words, they are not translated from one language into another.
* Client and their legal advisers create drafting instructions for regulatory drafters describing the desired outcomes, the rationale for their choice of instrument, history, relevant legislation and regulations.  Work is also done to prepare Regulatory Impact Analysis Statements and other supporting documentation.


Had the NDA decreed under NDA 21(2) that the Minister could make such changes, the process would be abbreviated - no requirement to go to to the TB ministers and GG.  But Parliament reserved this authority to the GiC, not to the MND or to any CAF member.

(Process geeks can read more about regulatory development at: https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/federal-regulatory-management/guidelines-tools.html.  Note that the majority of CAF regulations are exempt from pre-publication.)

So, what you're saying is, it should take about 10 years ... without COVID distractions?  8)
 
dapaterson said:
The RCN's announcement suggests that changing the regulations is part of a background process (quote below, emphasis added)

The problem is that the legal foundation of the ranks is the table to the QR&O.  There is no legal authority to refer to CAF members by ranks/designations other than those within the NDA or within the regulations.  A CANFORGEN doesn't trump the law and its associated regulations.


These are regulations under an act requiring GiC approval.  The normal flow, starting at the end, is:

* GG approval of the revised regulations
* TB Ministers, meeting as GiC, recommend revised regulations to GG for approval
* TB Ministers, meeting as TB, approve any financial elements of the proposed regulatory change (likely not applicable in this case)
* DND submits package for approval including rationale for changes and proposed regulations
* DND staff assemble submission package and get CRCN, CDS, CFO (for financial impacts), DM and MND endorsement.
* Department of Justice Lawyers approve changes to regulations, and provide what's called the blue stamp - certifying that the proposed regulations meet the form, fit and function, and have no outstanding legal issues
* Client and their legal advisers review draft regulations, together with staff and lawyers from TB Regulatory Affairs Sector.  This ensures cross-functional questions / issues are understood and addressed.  In the case of ranks; this would be minor; other regulations would undergo more detailed scrutiny to ensure alignment where possible and understanding of any deviations required for unique aspects of the CAF.
* Specialized lawyers draft proposed changes to the regulations (in this case, the changes to the English-language table to QR&O 3.01, column 2, serials 16 and 17).  In this instance it would be trivial; for many other regulations, this is a lengthy and complex process, where lawyers draft the regulations in parallel in English and in French.  Or, in other words, they are not translated from one language into another.
* Client and their legal advisers create drafting instructions for regulatory drafters describing the desired outcomes, the rationale for their choice of instrument, history, relevant legislation and regulations.  Work is also done to prepare Regulatory Impact Analysis Statements and other supporting documentation.


Had the NDA decreed under NDA 21(2) that the Minister could make such changes, the process would be abbreviated - no requirement to go to to the TB ministers and GG.  But Parliament reserved this authority to the GiC, not to the MND or to any CAF member.

(Process geeks can read more about regulatory development at: https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/federal-regulatory-management/guidelines-tools.html.  Note that the majority of CAF regulations are exempt from pre-publication.)

Yikes.  So what's the take away if the CANFORGEN in September states "effective immediately..." but the legal process has not yet completed to authorize the change?  What are the optics of that?
 
Reality is that folks in the CofC will expect the new ranks to be used.


Fact is that there is no way to enforce it, or punish any who fail to follow the path until the aforementioned steps are actioned and completed.



 
For those who are sticklers for rules, would this be a problem? Does the noble end justify the means? I have no horse in this race, and I like the new ranks. But rules are rules, I'm curious what some of you think about that.  Are rules sometimes meant to be bent and broken? 
 
Or they streamline it like they did for the Firearms OIC.
 
There has to be something missing here, from QR&Os, it states

"3.01 – RANKS AND DESIGNATION OF RANKS

(1) The ranks of officers and non-commissioned members are set out in the schedule to the National Defence Act which is reproduced in column 1 of the table to this article."

However in the NDA, the Schedule only lists the ranks as set out in Column 1 of the table listed in the QR&O. If you track back older versions of the NDA, they removed the old columns that included things like the old RCAF ranks.
 
QV said:
For those who are sticklers for rules, would this be a problem? Does the noble end justify the means? I have no horse in this race, and I like the new ranks. But rules are rules, I'm curious what some of you think about that.  Are rules sometimes meant to be bent and broken?

Yes, in cases of obvious extreme urgency.

Getting a good score on 'Leading Change' through playing to the ruling party's penchant for virtue signalling?

That's up for debate :)
 
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