Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I'm sure that there will be an appropriate range of giant patches to show the food chain.

It already exists: It's called the rank badge/slip-ons. Works wonderfully at showing the food chain.

I very much doubt that - given we can see each other's rank - merely addressing all levels as simply "sailor" will upset anyone. I think that such attachment to forms of verbal address is an army thing.

The Petty Officers First Class don't care that the Second Class ones are addressed the same way as they are. Same for the Chiefs. And I don't know any Sub-Lieutenant that care when we address Acting Sub-Lieutenants merely as "Sub-Lieutenant". (Or in French, that we call both Ensigns First and Second Class just "Ensign".

 

[daftandbarmy]

Yes Master.... minefields abound. Regardless, this article seems quite 'odd'....


New RCN Ranks Include Politically Incorrect “Master”

August 27, 2020 – The Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) is continuing to work to create a more “inclusive” environment within the workplaces, whether that is at sea or at home. Following survey with over 18,000 respondents, the RCN has chosen a new English rank designation for its junior ranks that will result in more gender-neutral terms than the current titles, which are not reflective of the modern, “progressive” service of RCN today.

The RCN’s junior ranks will soon be known as Sailor Third Class (formerly Ordinary Seaman), Sailor Second Class (formerly Able Seaman), Sailor First Class (formerly Leading Seaman), and Master Sailor (formerly Master Seaman).
On June 12, 2020, the Washington Post has this to say about the term “master.”

Like countless U.S. businesses, tech companies lately have been showing their support for racial justice, filling their websites and social media feeds with uplifting Black Lives Matter messages.

Unlike other U.S. businesses, the tech industry has a “master” and “slave” problem.

That’s what many tech companies call software components — “master” and “slave” is written into the computer code — wherein one process controls another. Not “controller” and “follower,” say, or “manager” and “worker.” Should an African American software developer be required to write code wherein a master process commands slaves?

Concern about the tech industry’s use of master/slave terminology has been simmering for years. In 2003, Los Angeles County asked vendors to stop using it. Some companies made changes; others did not. So why shouldn’t the focus stay on the companies that refuse?

These changes help retain the history of these roles and aligns the English rank designation with the existing ranks in French. These new rank designations will be effective upon the issuance of a CANFORGEN in early September. At that point, the junior ranks will begin referring to shipmates using the new rank designations.

The official announcement said, “By ensuring that the RCN continues to be an accepting and inclusive organization, we can demonstrate to Canadians that we uphold the values they hold as the RCN continues to protect them, both at home and abroad.” It appears bilingualism trumps racism in the woke halls of Ottawa.


https://mapleleafnavy.com/new-rcn-ranks-including-politically-incorrect-master/

 

[MJP]

Yes Master.... minefields abound. Regardless, this article seems quite 'odd'....


New RCN Ranks Include Politically Incorrect “Master”

August 27, 2020 – The Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) is continuing to work to create a more “inclusive” environment within the workplaces, whether that is at sea or at home. Following survey with over 18,000 respondents, the RCN has chosen a new English rank designation for its junior ranks that will result in more gender-neutral terms than the current titles, which are not reflective of the modern, “progressive” service of RCN today.

The RCN’s junior ranks will soon be known as Sailor Third Class (formerly Ordinary Seaman), Sailor Second Class (formerly Able Seaman), Sailor First Class (formerly Leading Seaman), and Master Sailor (formerly Master Seaman).
On June 12, 2020, the Washington Post has this to say about the term “master.”

Like countless U.S. businesses, tech companies lately have been showing their support for racial justice, filling their websites and social media feeds with uplifting Black Lives Matter messages.

Unlike other U.S. businesses, the tech industry has a “master” and “slave” problem.

That’s what many tech companies call software components — “master” and “slave” is written into the computer code — wherein one process controls another. Not “controller” and “follower,” say, or “manager” and “worker.” Should an African American software developer be required to write code wherein a master process commands slaves?

Concern about the tech industry’s use of master/slave terminology has been simmering for years. In 2003, Los Angeles County asked vendors to stop using it. Some companies made changes; others did not. So why shouldn’t the focus stay on the companies that refuse?

These changes help retain the history of these roles and aligns the English rank designation with the existing ranks in French. These new rank designations will be effective upon the issuance of a CANFORGEN in early September. At that point, the junior ranks will begin referring to shipmates using the new rank designations.

The official announcement said, “By ensuring that the RCN continues to be an accepting and inclusive organization, we can demonstrate to Canadians that we uphold the values they hold as the RCN continues to protect them, both at home and abroad.” It appears bilingualism trumps racism in the woke halls of Ottawa.


https://mapleleafnavy.com/new-rcn-ranks-including-politically-incorrect-master/

What?! Are telling me a hastily thought out proposal with no real substantive analysis to allow an org to appear "woke", made a choice that upon review has its own problems?  Shocked I am....

 

[Blackadder1916]

What?! Are telling me a hastily thought out proposal with no real substantive analysis to allow an org to appear "woke", made a choice that upon review has its own problems?  Shocked I am....

I thought the idiocy of complaints about use of the word "master" was previously hashed out earlier in this thread.  But looking at this latest linked article, I see nothing in it that refers to any "actual" controversy that has been identified by the navy.  As an opinion piece (?) from "Maple Leaf Navy", it does appear to lack editorial rigour.  As I am apt to do when confronted with a "news outlet" that I am unfamiliar with, I try to get a sense of the credentials of the author(s).  Maple Leaf Navy has this and only this to say about themselves:

OUR STORY
Maple Leaf Navy Magazine is a free source of Canadian naval news that is not normally accessible in other publications. Canadian media, in general, ignores military matters in Canada. Dedicated defense publications are beholden to their advertisers and hence selective in what they report on. Base newspapers are limited in what they can mention. We accept no subsidies and hence, can be objective in our coverage.

As I wasn't able to find anything more about them that would lend credence to the quality of their opinion (and editorial style), I did a search to see if they had been quoted previously on these forums.  It returned four instances, including the one posted above - the links provided for the other three are no longer active on their site.  So, is this an opinion that the powers that be should take seriously?  I wouldn't.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I thought the idiocy of complaints about use of the word "master" was previously hashed out earlier in this thread. 

LOL ya. People get to sleep in the bed they make.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I thought the idiocy of complaints about use of the word "master" was previously hashed out earlier in this thread.  But looking at this latest linked article, I see nothing in it that refers to any "actual" controversy that has been identified by the navy.  As an opinion piece (?) from "Maple Leaf Navy", it does appear to lack editorial rigour.  As I am apt to do when confronted with a "news outlet" that I am unfamiliar with, I try to get a sense of the credentials of the author(s).  Maple Leaf Navy has this and only this to say about themselves:

As I wasn't able to find anything more about them that would lend credence to the quality of their opinion (and editorial style), I did a search to see if they had been quoted previously on these forums.  It returned four instances, including the one posted above - the links provided for the other three are no longer active on their site.  So, is this an opinion that the powers that be should take seriously?  I wouldn't.

They seem to have 'borrowed' some of the Navy's branding for their site. I'm guessing that they'd be a good target for a legal torpedo of some kind...

 

[MJP]

I thought the idiocy of complaints about use of the word "master" was previously hashed out earlier in this thread.  But looking at this latest linked article, I see nothing in it that refers to any "actual" controversy that has been identified by the navy.  As an opinion piece (?) from "Maple Leaf Navy", it does appear to lack editorial rigour.  As I am apt to do when confronted with a "news outlet" that I am unfamiliar with, I try to get a sense of the credentials of the author(s).  Maple Leaf Navy has this and only this to say about themselves:

As I wasn't able to find anything more about them that would lend credence to the quality of their opinion (and editorial style), I did a search to see if they had been quoted previously on these forums.  It returned four instances, including the one posted above - the links provided for the other three are no longer active on their site.  So, is this an opinion that the powers that be should take seriously?  I wouldn't.

All good points, FWIW I didn't dive deep into the source, nor am I fussed about the changes. I am rather always amused that in the rush to make change in the CAF we often miss the target

 

[Gorgo]

I've hesitated on making comment on this issue.  Personally, I definitely support the idea of being all-inclusive when it comes to position titles and ranks, so the move by the Commander RCN to adjust things around is definitely welcome.

:sarcasm:

One thing I believe that might eventually come out of this change - with a nod to the pre-Unification rate/rating system used by the RCN at the time - is that while the actual rank title would be as about to be enacted, people will come to be addressed by a combination of both rank level and individual trade title; both the British and American system runs this way as well.

For example:

English:  Naval Combat Information Operator
French:  Opérateur/Opératrice d'Équipement d'Informations de Combat (Marine)

Master NCI Op/Maître-OÉICM
NCI Op 1st Class/OÉICM de 1re Classe
NCI Op 2nd Class/OÉICM de 2e Classe
NCI Op 3rd Class/OÉICM de 3e Classe

After all, it would allow both the masculine and feminine French-language forms to come into play, plus eliminate the sense some might develop of being seen as a numbered cypher.

Just my  :2c:

:sarcasm:

 

[ModlrMike]

A few observations:

1. We're not going back to the pre-unification model in any way, shape or form.

2. Most of the belly aching appears to be coming from people unaffected by the changes. Times change, culture evolves, live with it.

3. The whole master "controversy" is stupid. In the context of occupational expertise, it's a perfectly reasonable adjective. To get wound up about it is nothing more than an effort to be perpetually offended.

/soapbox /rant

 

[Hay]

Ordinary seaman or seawoman, Able seaman or seawoman, Leading seaman or seawoman, and petty is o.k. so far.

If they really must?

Why Petty is OK? It means "little importance, less importance or minor". Why we agree  that a petty officer is less important than an officer?
Come on, it is 2020. It has to be changed.

The worse thing is Master. I don't need say more about it...

 

[ModlrMike]

Petty Officer derives from the French "petit officer" - most accurately translated as "junior officer". The term Master has a long association with the navy:

The master, or sailing master, was a historical rank for a naval officer trained in and responsible for the navigation of a sailing vessel. The rank can be equated to a professional seaman and specialist in navigation, rather than as a military commander.

In the appropriate context, completely reasonable.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=ModlrMike]

3. The whole master "controversy" is stupid. In the context of occupational expertise, it's a perfectly reasonable adjective. To get wound up about it is nothing more than an effort to be perpetually offended.
[/quote]

I think seaman was fine. I like sailor more.

I'm guessing most of us here think it's stupid to get bent out of shape over "master" or "petty" officer. The problem with the big song and dance the Navy made about this name change is that it attracts people who DO take that stuff seriously. People who don't have a vested interest in the Navy or tradition or the military. Just people who want to be outraged about something and demand change for the sake of it.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I think seaman was fine. I like sailor more.

I'm guessing most of us here think it's stupid to get bent out of shape over "master" or "petty" officer. The problem with the big song and dance the Navy made about this name change is that it attracts people who DO take that stuff seriously. People who don't have a vested interest in the Navy or tradition or the military. Just people who want to be outraged about something and demand change for the sake of it.

Tangent on....

Speaking of a 'good change' have you noticed how many coffee shops are acting like Tim Horton's these days, because of COVID? I'm smugly enjoying the 'baristas' at Starbucks adding the cow and cane for me

Tangent off....

 

[dimsum]

Tangent on....

Speaking of a 'good change' have you noticed how many coffee shops are acting like Tim Horton's these days, because of COVID? I'm smugly enjoying the 'baristas' at Starbucks adding the cow and cane for me

Tangent off....

No, because I drink my coffee black.  As is correct. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

No, because I drink my coffee black.  As is correct. 

What kind of monster are you?????  ;D

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Wrong! It's: Tea, Earl grey, Hot.

/TANGENT OFF

 

[Lumber]

3. The whole master "controversy" is stupid. In the context of occupational expertise, it's a perfectly reasonable adjective. To get wound up about it is nothing more than an effort to be perpetually offended.
/soapbox /rant

Is it though? I mean... have you met an Master Seaman?

 

[FJAG]

Either Fowler or Brewster must read our threads:

Navy's gender-neutral change to ranks not legally binding, says ex-military lawyer
Rory Fowler says he backs the change but accuses DND of taking a shortcut
Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Sep 09, 2020

The Royal Canadian Navy's move to change the titles of its junior ranks has no legal force, says a former military lawyer.

In the interests of making the service more inclusive, the RCN is replacing all references to "seaman" in the English-language ranks (ordinary, able, leading and master) with gender-neutral terms.

As of last week, the ranks are: sailor third class, sailor second class, sailor first class and master sailor.

But according to retired lieutenant-colonel Rory Fowler — a former military lawyer now in private practice who deals with many disciplinary and grievance cases — the Department of National Defence hasn't gone through the proper channels to change the regulations governing conduct in the ranks.

He said the government has failed to issue what's known as a Governor in Council order — an oversight the defence department now confirms.

The absence of formal authority is significant, given the criticism the measure is getting online — from some serving members of the military, among others.
...

See rest of article here.

:cheers:

Edited to fix worst ever link

 

[daftandbarmy]

Either Fowler or Brewster must read our threads:

See rest of article

:cheers:

I don't think smart people need to rely on likes of us to help poke holes in some 'issues' all by themselves

 

[QV]

Well that’s awkward.  Too bad this wasn’t done properly.