Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks

[NavyShooter]

I actually looked up the DCRCN on Outlook today.  I looked at his name, and considered a question or two that I have had stewing in my mind for about 5 years, not directly associated to the rank/title change, but associated to the overall question of gender, so not completely un-related.

I'm giving my thoughts another night to settle, and may in fact click "TO" and send a note tomorrow.

I have met the DCRCN.  He is a fair, thoughtful person who took input, gave clear feedback and direction, and did not seem to be the sort to tear a strip off someone with a genuine question - and a genuine solution.

We'll see.

As for the question up-thread about my support (or not) of this initiative - that really doesn't matter.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Which of these do you think he stopped being concerned about to address ranks? Do you think any senior appointment, officer or NCM, is only capable of working on

This whole issue is about having more sailors and keeping the ones that they have. You change the things you can, and no number if new ships will fix this problem.

 

[dapaterson]

I have met and worked with DCRCN.  He is a profoundly decent person, who welcomes people at all ranks and talks with them as peers in the profession of arms.  He is caring.  He is strong.

Spinal Tap may have taken it to eleven, but every day, he takes it to twelve.

 

[stellarpanther]

I do know the man.  I know his character.  He meant what he said, and there is absolutely zero risk of backlash coming from him.

You might be amazed to find that many senior leaders are quite sincere. 

I am willing to guess that the backlash that you are referring too as having seen play out before probably did not come from a GOFO.

I haven't met the current CRCN or DCRCN but approx 3years ago during a unit Christmas luncheon, I had the pleasure along with a few other junior mbr's of the unit to  share a meal with Rear Admiral Couturier and the CPO1 of the Navy. When they were asking each of us questions during the 1 1/2 hour lunch, it was clear that his questions and answers were sincere and not just the typical one or two questions you get when on parade during a review of the guard.  There were a couple questions in which he pulled out a notebook and later followed up and the mbr was contacted directly a few days later.. 
I don't want to drift away from the topic at hand but based on my interaction with one DCRCN, if the current one is saying to contact him directly.  I think he most likely doesn't have a problem with anyone doing it.

 

[ModlrMike]

Re: Dinosaurs. After dinosaurs turned out to be evolutionary dead ends, the rest of the ecosystem continued to evolve and thrive without them.

Re: Dinosaurs. I've heard far worse from youngsters on this issue, than from those in my age group.

 

[TCM621]

I could care less about the name frankly. The names have changed before and will change again. I think the stated for the change are stupid and that the change won't have any real effect but that is a different story. I do have an issue with the "contact me directly" line though. For one, the Admiral knows it is a threat to anyone who disagrees with it. He doesn't even have to do anything himself because the CoC will do it for him. Second, and more importantly IMO, is the idea that the commander of the Navy would be willing to talk to the rank and file over something so inconsequential as a name change is ridiculous. No one I know is quitting over name changes at most they are 'one more thing" to stuff into their hockey sock of complaints. Let's talk about the inability of people to afford housing because of a decade long "study" on Pld. Let's talk about the inability of people to take career course either because they have no one to replace them or they aren't running courses. Let's talk about the lack of interesting postings, deployments or training opportunities abroad. Let's talk about burnout as we are asked to more with less everyday. Let's talk about career managers that don't seem to manage careers anymore and only care about filling holes not developing future leaders or experts. Let's talk about the slow cancellation of the ILP program which makes it very difficult to do any PD including the official NCMPD program.

Name changes are literally the least important thing anyone in the CAF has to hitch about. I want a GO to talk about a reason I should bother re-signing my contract that doesn't  involve a strict calculation of my best five. They have spent all this time ignoring real problems and think some name changes and some new uniforms make people tear up their releases and have lines forming at recruiting centres.

 

[stoker dave]

I would like to add my two cents.

More than 25 years ago I was serving on one of Her Majesty's Canadian Ships.  Females (ladies?  women?) were just in the early days of going to sea.  Overall, I thought the integration was going.... ok.

There was a very junior female stoker in the engineering department.  She was referred to as a 'stokette' but that is another story.  She was bright, ambitious, worked hard and fit in.  I was on constant alert for any sexism or unprofessional comments made to her.  In my presence, I heard none. 

But I was always uncomfortable calling her 'ordinary seaman'.  It just seemed wrong and it seemed (to me) like we were telling her she was in a man's world and she had to fit in.  That seemed to be the wrong message. 

So I am 100% in favour of a change and actually wonder why this wasn't done 25 years ago.  This change is important.  Yes, there are other issues facing the Navy as well but this can and should be accomplished.

 

[shawn5o]

Which of these do you think he stopped being concerned about to address ranks? Do you think any senior appointment, officer or NCM, is only capable of working on one thing?


Re: Dinosaurs. After dinosaurs turned out to be evolutionary dead ends, the rest of the ecosystem continued to evolve and thrive without them.

i'm not sure how to take those comments. So down the rabbit hole we go?

From what I've gleaned here, the Vice Admiral is good, decent, and righteous man.
And I understand that the Royal Canadian Navy has a recruitment problem, needing  around 800 sailors, and the fact that the navy is short of ships.
Canada has a large amount of coastline to patrol and the navy's important role to stand with our allies and friends in today's troubling world. I think that the leaders of the RCN would be focused on things like demanding for better funding, treating Veterans (the better to show Canadians they will be taken care of after service), and increased recruitment through better advertising. Blah, blah, blah

The Vice Admiral stated; To those of you who have made hateful, misogynistic and racist comments, I am shocked that you think that your comments would be acceptable, and that you are not able to recognize that those you are disparaging are the very people dedicating their lives to afford you the freedom to comment. These comments serve as a reminder of our need to call out cowardly attacks such as these, and remind us also that we should take every opportunity to show support for minority and marginalized groups.

Who can argue with that? I'm not.

The Vice also stated; To those of you currently serving with these beliefs, I would like to emphatically state you have no place in our Navy. If you cannot live by or support the values of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, then you cannot defend them. Should any serving Royal Canadian Navy Sailors have concerns or questions about this initiative and why this is considered a priority for our organization (and would like to engage in constructive discussion on the topic), please contact me directly.

To me, that is an odd statement. Is the Vice talking racists, misogynistic, and hateful people? He made himself clear in the previous para. But does the Vice Admiral include anyone critical of the name change? And the Vice Admiral brought up the Charter. Fine, but the Charter is for everyone, including bad actors.

And he wants to weed out the bad actors. Fine with me as long as it's focused on the bad actors. Hopefully, he doesn't include critics of the name change because, you know ... recruiting more people

Clear as mud?

 

[ModlrMike]

One can offer criticism that is not racist, hateful, or misogynistic.

 

[shawn5o]

I received an email from here and boots12 thinks I'm trolling the site.

No I am not. I am a (again) dinosaur especially with social media. So if I screw up and i probably will again, I know that others will pt me in my place. I am not trying to raise trouble.

boots12, I thought that this would be an interesting debate.

Cheers all

 

[Good2Golf]

Clear as mud?

Other than explaining why you implied RAdm Sutherland was “something other than professional” (ie. unprofessional) that caused many to question your ad hominem on the Deputy Commander.

Inviting some junior member to contact him directly knowing he would crush them or their career if they did is... something other than professional.

Is offering all-ranks a direct contact invitation still unprofessional?

 

[shawn5o]

Other than explaining why you implied RAdm Sutherland was %u201Csomething other than professional%u201D (ie. unprofessional) that caused many to question your ad hominem on the Deputy Commander.

Is offering all-ranks a direct contact invitation still unprofessional?

I didn't mean to imply such a thing. in fact, I didn't think it would come across as controversial.

BTW, Cood2Golf, you must have missed an earlier reply where I stated "From what I've gleaned here, the Vice Admiral is good, decent, and righteous man."

And this quote from your reply "Inviting some junior member to contact him directly knowing he would crush them or their career if they did is... something other than professional."

I didn't write that or if it directed at me, I missed the connection

 

[QV]

Other than explaining why you implied RAdm Sutherland was “something other than professional” (ie. unprofessional) that caused many to question your ad hominem on the Deputy Commander.

Is offering all-ranks a direct contact invitation still unprofessional?

Though others have pointed out it is most likely a sincere statement, I still maintain in my opinion, it was not an appropriate statement or course of action in the context it came out.  It came across as a dare, to me.  This isn't ad hominem.  Clearly the RAdm earned his very senior position in the CAF, in part, by his character.

Are we done with that now?       

 

[TCM621]

One can offer criticism that is not racist, hateful, or misogynistic.

The problem is that what is considered racist, hateful or misogynistic is interpreted in widely varying ways. Saying "just suck it up Princess" is either a way of saying don't sweat the small stuff or a hateful example of the rampant misogyny in the RCN. The people the Leadership is bowing to (by making the change for the reasons stated) thinks its the latter.

I think they should change the name. Sailor is a much better term than seaman, it doesn't sound like semen, it's gender neutral and you don't even need to change the abbreviations. I just seriously doubt it will affect retention or recruiting in any meaningful way. If anything it will lead to more releases as people get fed up with all the energy spent fixing problems that are so tiny compared to the major problems in the CAF.

You want to show women you value them, treat them well. Not because they are female but because you treat all your subordinates well. If they women in the CAF looked around at their awesome workplace where they do meanful work and regularly progress through their trade, no one would care if they called them seaman.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Though others have pointed out it is most likely a sincere statement, I still maintain in my opinion, it was not an appropriate statement or course of action in the context it came out.  It came across as a dare, to me.  This isn't ad hominem.  Clearly the RAdm earned his very senior position in the CAF, in part, by his character.

Are we done with that now?     

To be honest, I had the same initial reaction as you did. It was only tempered by some brief exposure to the current group of naval flag officers. Have never encountered RAdm Sutherland personally, but have seen the CRCN and the DCRN's peer group in other positions before they were promoted, and none of them are of that old school mentality, so took it as a genuine invitation for a rational conversation in that context.

Could be wrong, but I think the current group of senior leaders in the navy are actively working to stomp out the old school idea of using and abusing your subordinates to get ahead. Some of the old 'march the guilty bastards in' era mindset is still floating around, but that seems to be pretty career limiting. For this particular initiative, don't disagree with a name change, just think it's a lot more work then you would think, and know there are lots of things not getting done because lack of personnel, but don't think it's driven by anything other then good intentions by people that genuinely care about their subordinates well being.

Not that my opinion counts for anything, but can't remember the last time I met someone beyond a three ringer that I wouldn't mind having a pint with. Maybe I've been lucky, but honestly don't think the old school mentality would be tolerated, and with how competitive that promotion is, they can afford to filter out someone just for being a bit of a jerk.

 

[SupersonicMax]

The problem is that what is considered racist, hateful or misogynistic is interpreted in widely varying ways. Saying "just suck it up Princess" is either a way of saying don't sweat the small stuff or a hateful example of the rampant misogyny in the RCN. The people the Leadership is bowing to (by making the change for the reasons stated) thinks its the latter.

No.  We evolve as a society.  What was acceptable 10 years ago may not be acceptable today.  Time to change the jokes and sayings to reflect what society expects.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

In this day and age, terms like "seaman" are going to get a  rly: reaction from some people and for more than one reason.

The RCAF doesn't call everyone 'airmen' anymore; times have changed.  I don't care if my Sqn Boss says "air women and men" "air people"...who cares? 

Able Seaman, Able Sailor.  Do the folks in the Jnr Ranks mess actually care one way or the other?  If one is more suitable now, because 'times have changed' (and they have), make the change, and pretty soon all the hub-bub will die down. 

Just like it did when the CAF allowed 'squareback' haircuts.

Beards.

Cannabis.

Etc....

 

[CBH99]

I agree EITS, I doubt the general rank & file care all that much. 

Make the changes, and it'll blow over soon enough. 

National military organizations tend to be among the most professional groups of people out there.  And, as representatives of their societies, they evolve as needed.


I know I asked this before, and it's mostly rhetorical.  I truly wonder how many female members actually care all that much? 

 

[shawn5o]

In this day and age, terms like "seaman" are going to get a  rly: reaction from some people and for more than one reason.

The RCAF doesn't call everyone 'airmen' anymore; times have changed.  I don't care if my Sqn Boss says "air women and men" "air people"...who cares? 

Able Seaman, Able Sailor.  Do the folks in the Jnr Ranks mess actually care one way or the other?  If one is more suitable now, because 'times have changed' (and they have), make the change, and pretty soon all the hub-bub will die down. 

Just like it did when the CAF allowed 'squareback' haircuts.

Beards.

Cannabis.

Etc....

Thanks EITS

I had forgotten about the old rank Airman.

Now I have to rethink my opposition to the name change

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I agree EITS, I doubt the general rank & file care all that much. 



I know I asked this before, and it's mostly rhetorical.  I truly wonder how many female members actually care all that much?

In my experience the women that are hard workers, professional and work well with others, don't pay much attention to the window dressing stuff like this. They do get really pissed at being patronised, excluded and treated as lesser by their managers, leaders, senior staff who are two faced about saying all the PC stuff, but block the advance of women.