Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks

[dimsum]

Australia, as I recall ~ can someone help, please? ~ fiddled with CDS/Commander ADF or something.

The ADF has a Chief of Defence Force (CDF) and three service Chiefs, equivalent to CRCAF, CCA, and CRCN:

Chief of Air Force (CAF)
Chief of Army (CA)
Chief of Navy (CN)

Their senior non-commissioned members in each service are:

Warrant Officer of the Air Force (WOFF-AF)
RSM of the Army (RSM-A)
Warrant Officer of the Navy (WO-N)

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If the RCN decides to go with "sailor" it is at least more appropriate, and  reflective of the job than the idiotic RCAF rank of "aviator".

No Jr NCM flies an aircraft, but almost every trade that wears a RCN uniform can be a sailor.

There are Avr AES Ops, they crew RCAF aircraft though... .  No such thing as Avr's in the other NCM aircrew trades though (Flt Engr and SAR Tech).  Guess there are a few lucky enough that their rank actually is accurate to their job.

 

[midget-boyd91]

There are Avr AES Ops, they crew RCAF aircraft though... .  No such thing as Avr's in the other NCM aircrew trades though (Flt Engr and SAR Tech).  Guess there are a few lucky enough that their rank actually is accurate to their job.

Pffttt.  AES Ops are naval aircrew wearing Air Force drag anyways..
*ducks for cover *

 

[dimsum]

Pffttt.  AES Ops are naval aircrew wearing Air Force drag anyways..
*ducks for cover *

Nuh-uh, since they have them in the new FWSAR aircraft now  :nod:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Pffttt.  AES Ops are naval aircrew wearing Air Force drag anyways..
*ducks for cover *

:rofl:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Nuh-uh, since they have them in the new FWSAR aircraft now  :nod:

And some folks suffering on OUTCAN RPA taskings.... :'(  poor folks.

 

[McG]

Note the word 'engineer' is limited in use to those who have an engineering license to practice engineering.  In Ontario, see here:

https://www.peo.on.ca/knowledge-centre/frequently-asked-questions/licence-holders-faq

If a person uses the title “professional engineer”, or “engineer”, or any other occupational title that might lead to the belief that the person is qualified to practice professional engineering, or uses a seal that leads to the belief that the person is an engineer, PEO will prosecute the matter through provincial court. Fines for people found guilty can range from $10,000 for a first offence, to $50,000 for repeat offences.

So use caution in identifying individuals as 'engineers' when they are not authorized to be identified as such. 

There are exceptions that the PEO recognizes including train operators, stationary engineers, and the federal government. In fact, all provincial associations recognize an exemption for the federal government.  As long as the Army can get away with “combat engineer”, other technical trades will be fine.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Admiral lashes out at 'hateful' comments as Navy looks to drop 'seaman'

OTTAWA — The Royal Canadian Navy's deputy commander has responded to a series of online posts criticizing the military's plan to drop the term "seaman" by warning that there is no place in the force for sailors who subscribe to "hateful, misogynistic and racist" beliefs.

Rear-Admiral Chris Sutherland issued the admonition in a Facebook post over the weekend as sailors and members of the public are being asked to vote on a new title for the Navy's most junior members by replacing "seaman" with a more gender-neutral term.

"To those of you currently serving with these beliefs, I would like to emphatically state you have no place in our Navy," Sutherland said. "If you cannot live by or support the values of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, then you cannot defend them."

Navies around the world have described their junior sailors as "seamen" for decades if not centuries, with the Royal Canadian Navy using "ordinary seaman," "able seaman," "leading seaman" and "master seaman."

But those terms are being replaced in Canada as the Navy — which is short hundreds of sailors — charts new waters to become more diverse and inclusive. Navy officers have said the move is also designed to ensure junior members feel safe and proud of their ranks and jobs.

Members of the Navy as well as the public at large have until Friday to vote online on two alternatives, with both variants substituting "sailor" in place of "seaman" in different ways.

One simply replaces "seaman" with "sailor" in the existing ranks. The other would do away with adjectives such as "able" and "leading" in favour of labels such as "sailor first class" and "sailor second class." There is also be an option to suggest alternative terms.

But while the move has been applauded by some as long overdue, there has also been varying degrees of criticism online as some have blasted what they see as an overabundance of political correctness and others decrying a loss of tradition.

Some of those posts appear to have crossed a line for navy commanders.

Sutherland apologized for not speaking up sooner, saying he "needed a minute to come to terms with some of the comments that have been posted," before targeting not only active-duty sailors but anyone who has made "hateful, misogynistic and racists comments."

"I am shocked that you think that your comments would be acceptable, and that you are not able to recognize that those you are disparaging are the very people dedicating their lives to afford you the freedom to comment," he said without expanding on the offending posts.

"These comments serve as a reminder of our need to call out cowardly attacks such as these, and remind us also that we should take every opportunity to show support for minority and marginalized groups."

He went on to invite any sailor who wanted to know why the initiative is a priority for the Navy — "and would like to engage in constructive discussion on the topic" — to contact him directly.

The move to drop "seaman" comes amid a broader push by the military to become more reflective of Canadian society, which includes trying to recruit more women, visible minorities and members of the LGBTQ community while cracking down on hateful conduct.

At the same time, navy officials have suggested the use of "seaman" has been a potential barrier for recruitment at a time when the Navy is short about 850 sailors. Officers have said they can manage the shortfall at the moment, but are worried about the longer-term implications.

https://www.timescolonist.com/admiral-lashes-out-at-hateful-comments-as-navy-looks-to-drop-seaman-1.24176569

 

[Lumber]

I'd really like to know what these comments were.

 

[dimsum]

I'd really like to know what these comments were.

I'm guessing it's similar to some of the FB comments on the CBC article posted today.  I just shook my head reading most of them.

https://www.facebook.com/cbcnews/posts/10158907960119604

 

[Lumber]

I'm guessing it's similar to some of the FB comments on the CBC article posted today.  I just shook my head reading most of them.

https://www.facebook.com/cbcnews/posts/10158907960119604

Ever notice the people who are the worst also have maybe 1 grainy picture of themselves on their facebook page?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Ever notice the people who are the worst also have maybe 1 grainy picture of themselves on their facebook page?

I have found, on the various RCN attached FB groups I belong too, usually the most vocal and hatefilled have the littlest of time, if any, actually in the Navy.  Most did minimal time in the 50 or 60s and the other portion are former Sea Cadets and CICs with no actual time on deck plates.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I have found, on the various RCN attached FB groups I belong too, usually the most vocal and hatefilled have the littlest of time, if any, actually in the Navy.  Most did minimal time in the 50 or 60s and the other portion are former Sea Cadets and CICs with no actual time on deck plates.

Good thing the Army never suffers from that kind of stuff... oh... wait  :

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'm guessing it's similar to some of the FB comments on the CBC article posted today.  I just shook my head reading most of them.

https://www.facebook.com/cbcnews/posts/10158907960119604

While I'm not a regular reader, I've seen some particularly bad comments posted on the CAF side of Reddit in the past...

 

[Cloud Cover]

I think it was about 70-75 years ago they dropped the term "Boy Seaman" and they should have ditched the rest of the Seaman ranks at that time as well. I'm in favour of this change. I can remember army logistics and supply techs, clerks, cooks, firefighters (tankers and FFH, DDH) and others from Mobile Command and Air Command posting aboard ship and they would privately go ballistic if some Chief tauntingly referred to them as Able Seaman, Leading Seaman or Ordinary Seaman. We need all of these people to feel respected and be respected, not just according to rank but according to basic human dignity. If a rank title is identified as a problem area then the CRCN has a duty to the RCN fix it or he/she will run out of young people, thats very plain in todays stressed work force.

I personally don't think young men and women should really be held to the traditions of a past service that is extinct. That's for the history books, and it's a great history but not for the Ops room or the mess decks anymore. The RCN is about to take a leap into becoming an integrated pan domain war fighting force, it does no one any bit of good to hang on to the past and that includes silly things like rank curls on uniforms and out dated rank titles and even certain rank structures if necessary. 
LoL- I think I just ranted, not sure. 

 

[Cloud Cover]

Don’t really have anything to ask.  And he is right.  The vitriol posted by some people WRT this was disgusting.  I would be surprised if some investigating wasn’t being done to weed out the serving members who posted the stuff.  But this is the world we live in now, everyone has a voice.  Our organization needs to come to terms with that.  Having said that, I have posted what I think are good alternatives, but I will never be a Jr rate again so really for me its inconsequential.

Really ?  This makes me a little sad.  Chief is a long time Naval rank nomenclature.  I would hate to see it be discarded.  Especially as the word Chief is not a term used only by NA First Nations as it has been used to describe leadership in many cultures including Caucasian since Jesus was a cowboy.  This is an over reach IMHO. 

It does, although their existance has been on very shakey ground as of late, as the RCN looks at its trades and structures.

... there were lads and lassies who were Clan Chieftans in the British Isles long before the New World was discovered.  FWIW.

 

[Old Sweat]

Not to mention Chief Executive Officer, Fire Chief, and Chief of Police.

 

[Jarnhamar]

"Sorry I took so long to respond" seems common.

 

[OldSolduer]

Good thing the Army never suffers from that kind of stuff... oh... wait  :

Ain't it the truth.

I have no dog in this fight and I haven't read the threads about it other than this one.

FWIW once the Boss has made up his mind and gives the order it's time to STFU and get on with it.

An old saying "we're here to defend democracy, not practice it" sums up the issues very nicely.

 

[Ostrozac]

... there were lads and lassies who were Clan Chieftans in the British Isles long before the New World was discovered.  FWIW.

They probably weren't known as chieftains, but rather as ceann-cinnidh -- as Gaelic was never Romanized as a language. The word "chief" -- as used by the CDS, various Navies, and controversially Kansas City Football Club, came into English from the French, where it originated in the Latin as "caput". Very unlikely that the ancient Romans were actually talking about the NFL at the time, or referencing the populations of the New World. Context is important, and while the word itself isn't inherently offensive -- it is sometimes used in an offensive way -- the Navy isn't using the word in the same way as a football team that plays in Arrowhead Stadium and has a mascot named Warpaint.