Naval Officers Once Again to Wear the Executive Curl

[ctjj.stevenson]

I was having a little fun yesterday, and worked on improving my earlier version for the monarch's and vice-regal ranks:

The GG's rank sleeve has existed since at least the 1970s. I believe that it should remain, and give the GG the bars of an admiral. As for the monarch, it would be a good idea to have a similar to the GG, and have the bars of an Admiral of the Fleet. Also, it will show that the GG is subordinate to the monarch and not his/her equal.

Cheers!

 

[ctjj.stevenson]

I have also ordered my shoulder boards for a sub-lieutenant with the inverse rank. I should get them soon.

 

[dimsum]

Dag-nab it , I *knew* I should have kept my  SLt shoulderboards.  Now they're antique/collector items!  :blotto:

 

[tabernac]

Well, from current info, here are the new rank insignia.

I wonder what the new Flag Officer shoulder boards will look like. IMO, they look very sharp as they stand now.

Now on to something else: I know I might be beating a dead horse here, but I really hope that NCdts are included in the rank redux. It just doesn't make any sense to have Elliot's Eye for all Naval Officers in mess dress - NCdt incl'd - yet no curl for NCdts in DEUs.

 

[George Wallace]

That is why they are "Subordinate" officers.  They also do not hold a Commission.  We wouldn't want them to walk around mascarading as real officers now would we?    ;D

 

[Monsoon]

I wonder what the new Flag Officer shoulder boards will look like. IMO, they look very sharp as they stand now.

If you're thinking of the gold should boards worn on short-sleeved shirts and high-collar whites, I don't imagine they'll change. They're already patterned after something similar in the RN and other navies (one very thick bar and three smaller ones are a bit of a squeeze for the shoulder).

 

[ekpiper]

In my opinion, the NCdt rank should be consistent with the implementation of the curl.  So either they have it on both mess and service dress, or they haven't got it on either.

Whether or not they should have it is another matter.  I suppose I would use other countries as a source of reference:  The US Navy, which uses the star as a form of replacement, does give Officer Candidates the privilege of wearing the star, while Midshipmen generally don't wear it unless they are midshipman officers.  The RN's midshipman wear the uniform of an officer, but as they don't have a rank stripe, we can't infer precisely what they would use.  In the Italian Navy, the 'Aspirante guardiamarina' or Ensign Apprentice is similar to a midshipman, and they do not have an executive curl, but that is the difference between the two ranks' insignia.  In general, Midshipman and Officer Candidates are treated and classed as Officers in all respects except for the commission, and all implications of the commission.  The executive curl doesn't seem to have an incredible amount of specifics for its wear, so I don't see anything that says that the NCdt should not wear it from what I've read for the commonwealth, but the Italians do not give it.

I am quite curious as to the end result when the announcements are made, especially given that in July, I will be becoming a Naval cadet.  Whatever the case, I'm glad that we are finally getting back on the right track WRT uniforms.  I would like to see an 8 button service jacket, but that would require re-issuing and purchasing new tunics for everyone, and that does not make financial sense.

ekpiper

 

[Snakedoc]

I agree with Hamiltongs, I think the flag officer shoulder boards will stay the same (imo it looks much better anyways) but the bars on the sleeves for No.1 dress will be as described (large thick bar with thinner bars above).  This is similar to what the RN does.

I also personally think that it is better not to have the curl for subordinate officers.  Most major navies around the world (i.e. RN and USN) differentiate their rank insignia significantly between Commissioned Officers and officers without a commission such as slanted stripes for the USN and white tabs for the RN.

 

[Pusser]

I suspect that Naval Cadets will have a curl, simply because they already have it on their mess kits and have had it for several years now.  I agree that the flag officer shoulder boards will likely stay the same as they are uniquely Canadian, yet match the same style used in the USN, RN, RNZN, RAN, etc.  It is interesting to note that in the last 10 years, the flag officer shoulder boards of the RN, RNZN and RAN have all been altered to correspond to the same pattern as the US and Canadian Navies (WRT the number of stars).  In the old RN pattern (also used by the RCN and formerly in the RNZN and RAN), the Commodore's shoulder board was similar to all the other officers in that it was a broad band with a curl.  Rear Admiral was the first rank where they used the gold background with a crown, stars and other paraphernalia.  This meant that the Rear Admiral (a two star rank in the modern context) only had one star.  All the "Royal" navies now use two stars for Rear Admirals, but interestingly, the RN still uses the old broad band and curl for their Commodores (ie. there is no "one star" badge of rank in the RN.

Now that the Navy appears to be reclaiming a piece of its heritage, how long will it be before the Army wants its pips and crowns back (or perhaps maple leaves and crowns?)

 

[Edward Campbell]

One "star" ( a pip) above a crossed sword and baton was our (Army) old two star rank (MGen). Our old three star rank (LGen) was a crown over the crossed sword and baton. I suspect the old RN RAdm badge may have been 'standardized' with the British Army or vice versa.

Edit: image added

 

[Pusser]

The RCN (and former RN, RNZN and RAN) shoulder boards were actually bit different from the Army pattern.  All Admirals had a crown surmounting a crossed sword and baton and then the Rear Admiral had one huge star, the Vice Admiral had two smaller stars and the Admiral three stars.  Now, each rank gets one more star and they're all the same size.  The Admiral of the Fleet (which is basically defunct anyway - I think Prince Phillip is the only one left) used to have basically the same badge as the Field Marshal, but now a crossed sword and baton have been added in the same pattern as the other admirals, with the wreath and crossed batons below.  Yes, an Admiral of the Fleet now has three batons on his badge, but none in reality!  Field Marshals in the British Army are actually presented with a baton upon promotion, but Admirals of the Fleet are not.

 

[Old Sweat]

Edward

The badges of rank appear to be First World War vintage. Sometime after the war, brigadier generals became brigadiers and their rank badge became three pips and a crown. They also turned in their general officer cap badges and put up the same badge worn by full colonels, which is quite similar to the one worn by current land forces colonels.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Edward

The badges of rank appear to be First World War vintage. Sometime after the war, brigadier generals became brigadiers and their rank badge became three pips and a crown. They also turned in their general officer cap badges and put up the same badge worn by full colonels, which is quite similar to the one worn by current land forces colonels.

Right you are, that (BGen > Brig) occurred around 1920, as a result of a rather nasty exchange in parliament. The Army was accused, yet again, of being "all bands and generals," or something like that, and the "too many generals" thing resonated with the government of the day. The Army's solution, brigadiers, was, actually, a brilliant bit of guerilla bureaucracy - solved the political problem (perception) at low cost and minimal disruption to Whitehall.

 

[ctjj.stevenson]

I am also in agreement that the flag officer shoulder boards should remain as they are. I would not mind to see flag officer slip ons, with gold lace below in insignia (much like the shoulder boards) however, I do not think that would actually happen. As for NCdt, I would recommend that no NCdt should wear the curl, for any dress. Anyways, I have seen it on a mess dress, and it is butt ugly.

 

[Pusser]

I don't think changing the slip-ons for flag officers is that far out of the question.  After all, the USN, RN, etc have gold slip ons for their flag officers.  When new Canadian flag officer shoulder boards were first introduced with the DEU in 1984, they were simply navy blue (black) boards with gold embroidery.  The gold backing braid came a bit later.  I always figured it was because the flag officers of the day simply banded together and demanded it.  I have nothing to base this on though.  Either way, it looks great.

Now that it looks like we will getting our uniforms back to where we should be, I wonder if in a few years we older sailors will look back in fondness and remember our "traditional" green uniforms?  Perhaps we will dust them off and wear them to Rembembrance Day parades!

 

[FSTO]

Now that it looks like we will getting our uniforms back to where we should be, I wonder if in a few years we older sailors will look back in fondness and remember our "traditional" green uniforms?  Perhaps we will dust them off and wear them to Rembembrance Day parades!

I highly doubt it.

 

[Halifax Tar]

lol I will poke again... So what about the rest of the Navy? The lower decks I mean...

Anything in our future ?

 

[DBF]

lol I will poke again... So what about the rest of the Navy? The lower decks I mean...

Anything in our future ?

In theory I'd support it (keeping in mind that the executive curl is still a rumour and not a fact) but it depends on the details I guess. 

What are you thinking of? 

Changing the current ranks to the older RCN ranks?  IIRC, there were only 6 ranks in the RCN so how would you accommodate the current 8 ranks? 

Maybe scrapping the current naval trade badges and going with something different?  (On that note, how different are the current naval trade badges from the old RCN ones?)  Without wanting to push our luck, perhaps we could re-introduce trade designators (coloured clothe between the rings) for the officers at the same time...

Certainly 2010 would be the year to make those changes.  Rumour has it that the executive curl came from Prince Charles’ visit earlier this year when he wore the CF naval uniform for the first time and commented to the MND that we needed the curl.  Don’t know if it’s true but a good dit for sure!

 

[ModlrMike]

I don't see the NCM ranks changing any time soon. While the Officer ranks are certainly different, they are not "revolutionary" in the context of the amount of change that would be required of the NCM ranks. In other words, the new Officer ranks are not that divergent from what is in use by the Army and Air elements and the same would need to be maintained for the NCM ranks.

 

[ekpiper]

I think it's time that we bring back the rum ration!  For all ranks, of course.