Native protesters

[Bruce Monkhouse]

There lies the fundamental difference between what the non-native tries to understand and fails to do and what the FN knows and accepts.  Non-natives can only use their experiences of immigration, global movement, colonization and conquering to establish parameters of what is "best for the redman."  The solution is always the same, pick a century, decade, or moment and it only repeats itself - "move the Indian and all will be well. Make them the same as us and we won't have to deal with otherness, only sameness.  We did it, we survived, we conquered we inflicted our values onto the indigenous population". - I hear the non-native say- same old, same old. First Nations never left, we never ran, we didn't enmasse leave the country of our ancestors for better places as we love the land of our ancestors.  We stayed. Even when our very existence was threatened, we stayed.  Non-native people don't get that.  They don't get there is no solution - we don't need a solution, we never left in all the attempts to by non-natives to assimilate, criminalize, separate, dehumanize and segregate us from our land.  You won't be seeing a mass exodus of Indians leaving the continent, or our lands so your solutions won't work because they require us to find something more important to us than the land. In 10,000 years not much as compelled us to leave, the land is what holds us.  Until the non-natives come to understand that, there will always be a difference.    


Cpl Caldwell, You want an Urban reserve? Look no further than Toronto and Los Angeles.  LA is the biggest urban rez in North American and TO is second with an off reserve population of over 50,000. 

This post says it all for me........count the friggin' 'we'[s}.

I'm sorry Niner but YOU didn't do any of the things you mentioned above just as I didn't do any of the things you mentioned my ancestors did. 
When I talk of people coming over here 100's of years ago I sure don't count them in my "we".

My 'we' started the day I was born............................

 

[Kirkhill]

Now a question for you ZC.  In a previous post, I included a link by the Six Nations.  In their site, they have gone to great lengths to name names of those they feel are responsible for creating acts of civil disobedience and as well, have gone to great lengths to give a somewhat detailed dates and places of incidents.  So with that information, what have you done with it? It is my understanding that one of your major complaints with the natives is the Caledonia barracading of a public road and ensuing problems.  Given that the Grand Council of the Six Nations is willing to "up the info" on those they feel responsible, have you done anything about it - in your powers as a police officer? Good luck with that.  

Further questions for you niner - first of all I don't know about ZC's jurisdiction and how it interacts with the 6 Nations - but are you suggesting that a municipal, the provincial or even the federal police force has jurisdiction on 6 Nation's lands? Or are you requesting assistance in the same manner in which the Government of Afghanistan has requested and received assistance from the Canadian government - To maintain order in the absence of a local ability to maintain order?  Has the Grand Council made that kind of request for assistance?

 

[a_majoor]

If the Grand Council is willing to "name names" are they also willing to use their powers of citizens arrest or the local band police to arrest the trouble-makers and deliver them to the OPP and justice system?

The real problem seams to be more political than anything else, I have spoken with frustrated OPP officers who would be more than happy to arrest the trouble makers but have reason to fear their political masters will not back them up in the event of trouble. If a band of Hell's Angels were to decend on the Six Nations reservation, barracade a road and take over some buildings to make a clubhouse, what would the response be by the band council? I would hope the council would take effective steps to remove trespassers, and support the band police in their efforts.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

ZC, Why don't you travel to my home territory and point out to me where the reservation is? I have never lived on a reservation, my community is called a village, always has been and always will be with a population of 800.  We have a mayor, we have council members and we even have Pugwash, the garbage collector. We have corporate offices in Whitehorse and a three tier government.  But I assume that in your vast experience of FN, you knew that about most of the non-proclamation territories right? That you simply, in a moment of forgetfulness, forgot that not all FN communities are reserves and full of sad people, right?

Well, Huzzah for Pugwash. 
I was under the impression that we were talking about the reserve system.  If you want to shift direction, do so but don't get all miffy about it.  Again, YOU are the one complaining about your communities not me.

As for complaining, you honour me with your valued opinion of me. I have only tried to emulate myself after yourself and it appears I have succeeded.  

I have no opinion of you.  I don't even know you.  "You" are pixels on my computer screen.  All I am debating are your points.  If you need to take it personally, go ahead. 

Now a question for you ZC.  In a previous post, I included a link by the Six Nations.  In their site, they have gone to great lengths to name names of those they feel are responsible for creating acts of civil disobedience and as well, have gone to great lengths to give a somewhat detailed dates and places of incidents.  So with that information, what have you done with it? It is my understanding that one of your major complaints with the natives is the Caledonia barricading public road and ensuing problems.  Given that the Grand Council of the Six Nations is willing to "up the info" on those they feel responsible, have you done anything about it - in your powers as a police officer? Good luck with that.  

Sure, I'll just grab a cruiser, head down the 401 and start pulling down barricades.  :  I am going to Afghanistan to risk my life with gunfire.  I don't need that aggravation in Ontario if I can avoid it.  But rest assured all that is needed is a green light and there will be some decidedly unsmug individuals littered about.  And I would be thrilled to be in on that one. 
And in your own words "those they feel responsible".  Well, I guess we are all responsible aren't we?  Might as well put my own name on the list. 
Where was the cooperation when two elderly tourists got attacked?  When reporters got attacked and had their drivers licences taken under the threat of "now we know where you live"?  When an observer from the Michigan State Police was almost killed with the same car he had been riding in when it was carjacked by domestic terrorists?  Where was the cooperation when two OPP officers on their way to the detail were waylaid by Six Nations Police for driving on a road they supposedly not allowed to be on and then were charged with Trespassing? 
Don't be so quick to point the self righteous finger.  The worst examples you can point to are from decades and centuries ago.  Mine are from months ago. 
But you keep on keeping on.  You kid yourself that you are on a flawless course of action.  You tell yourself that it is all everyone elses fault and make sure you teach your children and grandchildren how to shirk personal accountability and dwell on things that happened when we lived in log cabins. 

And you have good luck with that. 

 

 

[Brad Sallows]

>And why is the suicide rate so high among the indigenous people all over the world?

Boredom, purposelessness, a sense of displacement and alienation.  Stone age hunting/gathering, with or without shades of plant and animal domestication, is a full-time job.  Newer technologies reduce the task times to meet basic needs to fractions of former durations.  Then what does one do with time, especially in remote areas and without any in-demand skills with which to obtain money with which to buy the leisure products and services of the modern world?

Adaptation to modern technologies and different socio-political structures, including methods of governance, doesn't necessitate losses of culture.  But, "Root, hog; or die" is sound advice to anyone.  Your life is what you make it.

 

[cplcaldwell]

Sheesh, early twentieth century farming, with full-on plant and animal domestication is a full time job.

But I agree 100% with your post Mr Sallows.

That's why I would argue a solution allows individuals to voluntarily participate in the economy and that protects the culture is a solution.

 

[Jacqueline]

Good idea.

 

[ambex]

First off I would like to note that I have not read all posts, so if someone else has brought this to light my bad.

Mr. Phil Fontaine re: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/27/first-nations.html?ref=rss

"It is our hope that when parliamentarians rise to speak to this issue that they will state very clearly that they recognize the unique status and unique rights of First Peoples and that this motion in no way is designed to diminish those rights," he said.

"Any action that elevates the status of one segment of Canadian society over another is completely wrong. There is a real appreciation in Canada that we don't do nation building in this way."

I dont have an english major but that sounds like an oxymoron.

I personally think special rights and status based on blood is stupid. While horrible things have been done to aboriginal groups in the past we have to realise that continued special status and rights will only serve to encourage resentment towards aboriginals. A case of this would be a few years back when aboriginal fisherman were fishing during the off season on the east coast while other fisherman in the area had had a reduction in their catch limits that year. As I recall this resulted in several violent clashes. (This is what I recall reading in the news, if there are facts missing regarding this incident please bring them to light.) I for one would like to see an apology from all levels of government including a representative from France and England. Lets have apologizies all around, make nice and get on with our lives as equals in Canada and set an example for the rest of the world to follow.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>That's why I would argue a solution allows individuals to voluntarily participate in the economy and that protects the culture is a solution.

That's fine, but is there someone who will be expected to provide shelter and basic services and various modern tools to the individuals that don't volunteer to participate in the economy, or will they deal with those needs themselves as part of their choice to live traditionally?

 

[rmacqueen]

I find it interesting how natives have become a commodity to be moved around at will.  Too expensive to provide safe water, move them.  Too many children dying, move them.  How many non-natives would allow the government to move their entire town just because  it was easier?  The answer is none, yet it is acceptable to uproot people who have lived in the same area for decades, or longer, rather than actually solve anything.  Just another item on the to do list.  Hmmm, I seem to recall we did that to the Japanese in the 40's.

As for Caledonia, 6 Nations had filed a legal claim against the site in 1995 that is still outstanding.  If it had been a non-native filing a legal challenge to the ownership of land you can bet that any development would have waited until it was settled.  But, because it was a native claim, the Ontario government went ahead and granted title to the developer and then issued building permits, even though the land was under dispute in the courts.  I can't even build a garage if my neighbour complains it is too close to the property line let alone start building on land were my ownership is being legally challenged.

Some have suggested that the reserves should be run like a municipality.  That is a great idea except that is known as "self government" and everytime that comes up there is a huge uproar from those that don't care to actually understand.  The FN have been trying to get that for years but then politics becomes involved, and people carry on about special status for natives, and the issues dies.  Many have attempted to start businesses on the reserves but it is difficult to do when they can't get loans because they live on a reserve.  When the band does figure out how to make some extra money to improve the reserve, non-natives usually find something to complain about it.

This sort of behaviour also hurts us in other ways.  The FN in this country signed treaties in good faith.  The were not afforded a lawyer to read them over before signing and, until the 70's, they were not allowed to challenge them legally.  They abided by the terms of their treaties, many of which were given as rewards for cooperation, and moved on to the reserves.  Over the years the terms of the treaties have been consistently violated by non-natives and especially by the government.  Land stolen, resources taken without compensation, etc.  Now we, as a nation, are going all over the world trying to convince people to live in peace and that they should listen to us because we are honest.  Then they look at how little our word means when it comes to the FN.  How can we be trusted?

Then we sit here and wonder why they don't just assimilate, join the rest of us.  Perhaps they should, because then the FN would actually have more rights.  Of course, they would have to leave their ancestral home behind and never return for more than a quick visit.  They wouldn't be allowed to move back to the place of their birth because it would be on the reserve.  But, then again, it comes back to them being a commodity.  Rural Canadians live for generations in the same small town but non-natives must leave and never move back.

I have seen talk about tax money being used inappropriately by some bands.  Although this is true in some cases it is not like that is unique to natives.  In Ontario it was just published that the Children's Aid Society has been doing exactly the same thing we are accusing certain bands of doing, using tax money for fancy cars, trips, etc, yet no one is suggesting that Children's Aid be eliminated, just that the system be fixed.  Yet, because of a few corrupt people, we should get rid of reserves?

And ZC, before you climb on your high horse about the natives occupying the site in Caledonia, the non-natives on the otherside are not lilly white either.  I can name you at least 5 white supremacists from London that have been down there a number of time protesting the natives and trying to stir up trouble.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I find it interesting how natives have become a commodity to be moved around at will.  Too expensive to provide safe water, move them.  Too many children dying, move them.  How many non-natives would allow the government to move their entire town just because  it was easier?  The answer is none, yet it is acceptable to uproot people who have lived in the same area for decades, or longer, rather than actually solve anything.  Just another item on the to do list.  Hmmm, I seem to recall we did that to the Japanese in the 40's.

Hmmm, "decades, or longer", but getting safe drinking water wasn't that high on the priority? OK lad, give us how you would solve them instead of  the standard 'white man's guilt trip", cause I have no guilt.

 

[Jacqueline]

Hmmm, "decades, or longer", but getting safe drinking water wasn't that high on the priority? OK lad, give us how you would solve them instead of  the standard 'white man's guilt trip", cause I have no guilt.

Why should you feel guilty?

 

[rmacqueen]

Hmmm, "decades, or longer", but getting safe drinking water wasn't that high on the priority? OK lad, give us how you would solve them instead of  the standard 'white man's guilt trip", cause I have no guilt.

No, but the attitude that we should simply uproot an entire village shows an attitude of ownership of natives, that we can do whatever we feel like, even if we wouldn't accept it ourselves.

 

[ArmyRick]

i got news for you, white people have been uprooted in the past as well so get over it. First example I will provide is Meaford. The base was acquired from european immagrant farmers in the 40s during the war. Give me some time to research and confirm some more situations.

 

[cplcaldwell]

No, but the attitude that we should simply uproot an entire village shows an attitude of ownership of natives, that we can do whatever we feel like, even if we wouldn't accept it ourselves.

I find it interesting how natives have become a commodity to be moved around at will.

The solution is always the same, pick a century, decade, or moment and it only repeats itself - "move the Indian and all will be well.

As for mass relocation of Aboriginal people to urban centres?

I AM NOT ADVOCATING UPROOTING ANYONE. I AM ADVOCATING GIVING ABORIGINALS A LAND RESERVE IN OR NEAR A CITY THAT ALLOWS THEM TO VOLUNTARILY MIGRATE TO , IN ORDER TO VOLUNTARILY PARTICIPATE IN THE ECONOMY AND GET AWAY FROM THE SOCIAL PROBLEMS THAT ARISE FROM BEING ECONOMICALLY DISENFRANCHISED. WHILST STILL MAINTAINING A PIECE OF LAND TO LIVE ON,  PRACTISE THEIR CULTURE AND STEWARD AS THEY SEE FIT!

Brad Sallows: Yes I think that it would require investment by INA to establish infrastructure.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Sounds like a good gig.  You pay for my house, and I live my life the way I believe my cultural heritage recommends.

 

[cplcaldwell]

Yes. But here's the kicker, once it's done, it's done.

Get some established communities up running with a chance at making it, BUT in twenty years when you need a new water plant, 'talk to the hand'.

I guess I'm saying let's get rid of this welfare state, but in doing so, let's set up the model and then the Aboriginal community can start running it.

This idea, while somewhat odd by some standards, and only partially baked by any standard, is a lot better (to me) than pouring cash into areas where there is little or no economic viability and the social problems based on isolation and the lack of economic opportunity are endemic.

Does it negate the idea of Indian Act cheques, no, does it mitigate infrastructure grants completely, no, but it mitigates them.

Oh yeah and like I said above, self government means democracy 'quid pro quo'.

By the way, keep the existing reserves if folks want to go there for summer vacation or take a year away from the urban crush to fish and hunt great or evens stay there permanently, just stop coming asking for tonnes of money.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>How many non-natives would allow the government to move their entire town just because  it was easier?

How many towns have had problems which might commend such a drastic solution?  It's not a case of eminent domain (eg. building the St Lawrence Seaway).  I'm aware of many (non-aboriginal) communities across Canada which have slowly disappeared because the "way of life" no longer remained (the mine closed, the mill closed, the fish ran out, not enough young men came back alive from the war).  But how many have been regarded as ecological or social disasters?  (Also, one of the people from Kashechewan referred to the town as a "rat-hole" - what's the residents' view?)  For any small community in Canada, on what does it support itself?  Can it support itself?

>That is a great idea except that is known as "self government" and everytime that comes up there is a huge uproar from those that don't care to actually understand.

The uproar is generally from people who believe - rightly or wrongly - that something higher than a municipal level of self-government is concerned.

>Many have attempted to start businesses on the reserves but it is difficult to do when they can't get loans because they live on a reserve.

There's no remarkable injustice involved in that objection.  You generally can't get a loan if you don't have collateral, unless the target of the loan can itself secure the loan.  Living on a reserve has nothing directly to do with it.  Indirectly, the situation is that most people living on a reserve are not personally permitted to hold title to reserve land as collateral.  But most people start life without collateral, regardless where they live, and progressively earn collateral.

>Then we sit here and wonder why they don't just assimilate, join the rest of us.

It occurs to me that when non-aboriginals say "assimilate" they really just mean "join the modern economy and self-support".  Few today actually want aboriginals to throw aside their culture.  When a band builds a casino or a mall or an industrial park, it is joining the modern economy.  No-one confuses this with a loss of culture or decries "assimilation".  Is there some reason an individual can't do what a band does without being assimilated?

>Yet, because of a few corrupt people, we should get rid of reserves?

With respect to the number of people involved, is it a few?  None, some, many, all - there's a difference.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Yes. But here's the kicker, once it's done, it's done.

Not a chance.  It gets used until it's unsuited to human use, and then the outcries for compassionate resolution of the problem are renewed (and that's the way most people are irrespective of heritage).

 

[cplcaldwell]

It gets used until it's unsuited to human use, and then the outcries for compassionate resolution of the problem are renewed (and that's the way most people are irrespective of heritage).

Quite Possibly. But if the group using it has taken ownership, pays (property) taxes to keep it up, and has (local government level) authority I am not sure if in twenty years when that new water plant is required if the population around such an entity might just be a bit less compassionate at throwing cash at it for compassion's sake.

That's the real bugger in it all isn't it? Would such an idea go toward breaking the existing mentalities or just send them into hibernation? I dunno