Native protesters

[niner domestic]

Then perhaps Roy you'd like to answer his query about needing an income.  I was addressing post number 120.   

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Nice diatribe.

Didn't answer ZC's question, however.

Agreed.  I see a lot of place settings at the pity party, and precious few solutions being offered.  And if you want me to agree that Trudeau was a dick, I am already there. 

 

[Roy Harding]

Then perhaps Roy you'd like to answer his query about needing an income.  I was addressing post number 120.   

Fair enough (although that fact wasn't apparent in your previously mentioned diatribe).

I'm headed for bed, and therefore won't respond tonight.

Wait, out

 

[a_majoor]

One of the factors which crushes native people living on the reservation is that in many cases our concepts of accountability, rule of law etc. end at the front gate. I'm sure we have all heard of the horror stories of chiefs and their circle of cronies living the high life, and maintaining power by dispensing perques like housing, jobs and welfare cheques to their friends and supporters. In many ways this resembles the situation in third world nations like Haiti rather than what we expect in Canada.

Of course, pointing this out, or suggesting that "we" as the donors of this money should be able to hold bands accountable usually results in cries of racism rather than an RCMP investigation resulting in jail time for the miscreants.

Suggesting that "third levels" of government, or calling bands "Nations" really are non starters as far as being effective solutions. Native people are people first and foremost, and will behave the same way you or I would under similar circumstances. The only way to bring these people out of poverty to enjoy the wealth and privileges that we have is to drop the notion that they are somehow different from other Canadians. Reservations should be converted to townships, counties or municipalities depending on their local circumstances, and band councils brough under the control of the local equivalent of the Municipal Act of their respective provinces. I can personally attest to the efficiency of this, while doing driver training in Alberta back in the 1980's we often drove down roads with "third world" reservations on one side and really nice farms and ranches on the other side. In many cases the owners of these farms and ranches were natives who left the reservation behind (and notice the key word: "owned"), since they were now living and interacting in the world of free markets and Rule of Law they learned and acted on the same sets of behaviours and assumptions that we do, and were successful in doing so.

Yes the transition will be tough, but millions of immigrants came to Canada with only a few dollars in their pockets, poor command of the language and invalid qualifications (i.e. education not recognized in Canada), yet still thrived and prospered, indeed people still do so today from China and India, so this is not impossible.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

+1

Stand by for a resounding lack of response............

 

[Trinity]

Majoor

On face value... that sounds simple  yet effective. 

However the underlying principle is what Trudeau said..  assimilate.


How can we ensure their culture/heritage stays live if we ask them to assimilate
to into a city.  Non natives could move into this city like any other city which I'm
sure won't go over very well.  I have a few other thoughts of how this wouldn't
go well... I just can't find the proper terms to express them.

I'm not shooting the idea down.  Like you said, it would be difficult for them to adapt.
Is there a way to allow them become a city and not lose their heritage, cultures, values
because like I said this could be interpreted as assimilate.

 

[vonGarvin]

How can we ensure their culture/heritage stays live if we ask them to assimilate
to into a city.  Non natives could move into this city like any other city which I'm
sure won't go over very well.  I have a few other thoughts of how this wouldn't
go well... I just can't find the proper terms to express them.

They would guarantee their culture/heritage the same way that Italians, Chinese, African and other groups have maintained theirs, all without BigBrother State ensuring that it did.  A collection of personal and collective pride would do it.  If they don't have the personal or collective pride to maintain their culture, then it wasn't worth that much to them.

 

[Jacqueline]

Yes the transition will be tough, but millions of immigrants came to Canada with only a few dollars in their pockets, poor command of the language and invalid qualifications (i.e. education not recognized in Canada), yet still thrived and prospered, indeed people still do so today from China and India, so this is not impossible.

I agree. You have some good points.  However, Aboriginals feel like this in their home country. And why is it the same deal in other countries where there has also been colonization? And why is the suicide rate so high among the indigenous people all over the world?

 

[cplcaldwell]

Reserves.

Sorry Miss Jacqueline I don't mean to be trite.

I understand how serious the problem is, but I can't help but think we expose aboriginals to all the trappings of modern society and then stick them on some piece of 'skeg and say "here's home, you're special, cheque's in the mail, now bugger off".

However, Urban Reserves.... now there's an idea (IMHO)...

 

[Jacqueline]

Yes, and that is what needs to be changed. The problem is getting the idea across.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I agree. You have some good points.  However, Aboriginals feel like this in their home country. And why is it the same deal in other countries where there has also been colonization? And why is the suicide rate so high among the indigenous people all over the world?

Perception is reality.  IMO it is worse to jam a bunch of bummed out characters into an isolated compound (reserve) to tell each other over and over how bad they have it.  I will stand to be corrected, but from what has been being said the most successful natives are the ones who leave the Res and get with the business of living.  
As for the suicide thing, why do you keep harping on it?  If people are hopeless, how is throwing money at them going to help?  And if the money is thrown en masse at one guy that has the ultimate say in who gets it or not, how is that helping a community?  The suicide issue is a "you" problem.  Only the native community can fix it.

 

[UberCree]

Throwing money doesn't solve the problem, neither does forced assimilation.  Some of the 'solutions' you guys are throwing out have been proven ineffective, if not dramatically harmful, time and time again. 

What is working, on a case by case basis, is long term economic development coupled with increased self-governance rights.  Good governance and economic development, on our terms.  Sounds rational to me. 

 

[UberCree]

As for mass relocation of Aboriginal people to urban centres?  What would then happend to Canadian claims of sovereignty over the vast stretches of uninhabited land in the north?  Even from a purely national interest / national defense perspective it makes sense to me to have people living all over Canada, even in remote areas.  If we don't, someone else will.

 

[niner domestic]

There lies the fundamental difference between what the non-native tries to understand and fails to do and what the FN knows and accepts.  Non-natives can only use their experiences of immigration, global movement, colonization and conquering to establish parameters of what is "best for the redman."  The solution is always the same, pick a century, decade, or moment and it only repeats itself - "move the Indian and all will be well. Make them the same as us and we won't have to deal with otherness, only sameness.  We did it, we survived, we conquered we inflicted our values onto the indigenous population". - I hear the non-native say- same old, same old. First Nations never left, we never ran, we didn't enmasse leave the country of our ancestors for better places as we love the land of our ancestors.  We stayed. Even when our very existence was threatened, we stayed.  Non-native people don't get that.  They don't get there is no solution - we don't need a solution, we never left in all the attempts to by non-natives to assimilate, criminalize, separate, dehumanize and segregate us from our land.  You won't be seeing a mass exodus of Indians leaving the continent, or our lands so your solutions won't work because they require us to find something more important to us than the land. In 10,000 years not much as compelled us to leave, the land is what holds us.  Until the non-natives come to understand that, there will always be a difference.    


Cpl Caldwell, You want an Urban reserve? Look no further than Toronto and Los Angeles.  LA is the biggest urban rez in North American and TO is second with an off reserve population of over 50,000. 

 

[UberCree]

Very well said. 

 

[cplcaldwell]

Just for the record, and I do not think I am being accused of it, but just for the record....

I am not advocating mass relocation.

I am saying that without re-inventing the whole paradigm (which probably needs to be done...but whatever)..

Just to float an idea here... could the landclaims process not be a titch more productive if, say, we said, "Okay, all you Williams Treaty guys, we'll cede you Downsview Base as a Reserve, (we'd really like to see accountable government as a 'quid pro quo', by the way) this way you can stay "Indian" and partake in our society....."

This way people could migrate, not be relocated, as they see fit....

Folks who want to live off 'Res' in Tronna are still welcome to do so...

Now I understand your statement on Tronna and LA, but I would submit, even based to some degree on your arguments, that one of the plights of the urban native is, separated from his (sic) society, criminalized or discriminated against by the whites, the aborginal ends up in a really bad spot. I think I am saying an urban reserve gives you (again sic)  your land, your culture, and the other things important to a peer-group society and allows aboriginals the chance to participate in the economy .


Has not the new urban reserve in Saskatoon gone some way to validating such a hypothesis?


<Edit, Treaty Six is wrong, my bad, I'll go with the easiest reference, changed to Williams Treaty, sorry...>
<Edit: the new urban reserve is in Saskatoon, not Edmonton, once again ,, my UpperCanadian mind is challenged by Western Geography>

 

[zipperhead_cop]

In 10,000 years not much as compelled us to leave, the land is what holds us.  Until the non-natives come to understand that, there will always be a difference.    

Then quit complaining. 

History and tradition are all well and good, but reality is judged in the here and now.  I have a glorious Scottish tradition that I can speak to, but my family didn't raise me to believe that when our clan got dicked over by the British 500-odd years ago that it was a reason to pin all my personal shortcomings on. 
Hold on to your past, but only the good parts.  If you want to make things better, come up with a plan and execute it.  I will be the last person to tell anyone to get off of their Reservation and I agree that forcing people into urban centers is not a great plan.  But why not un-designate the reserve and make it a municipality like the rest of everywhere.  Whoever is there currently gets to own their property and simply gets with the program.  Doubtless there would be concessions for hunting and fishing, but if infrastructure and community organization is the biggest challenge, why not become part of a system that is proven to work?  You need not fear anyone else will be running things ie) whites, since the only people who actually live in the municipality would already be all native.  Getting a native mayor or native city counsel would be a pretty simple task. 
Make all the excuses you want to.  Blame anyone and everyone.  It's your gig to run, but if you don't like how things are going you may want to try to think out of the box (or circle as it were).
Good luck.

 

[vonGarvin]

Throwing money doesn't solve the problem, neither does forced assimilation.  Some of the 'solutions' you guys are throwing out have been proven ineffective, if not dramatically harmful, time and time again. 

I disagree.  Look at A_Majoor's post again.  Immigrants who were DIRT poor, couldn't speak english and weren't even qualified to drive a bicycle have made it here.  How?  By pulling up their socks and getting on with it, not by complaining that the White Man is to blame for all their woes.

On the other hand, reverting to early 20th Century methods of carting off natives to cities, forcing them to abandon their culture, etc is definately not the way to go.

Of course native culture is important.  But, in reality, if they want to live life as it was prior to the White Man coming over, then fine, do it.  Just don't ask me for handouts.

 

[niner domestic]

ZC, Why don't you travel to my home territory and point out to me where the reservation is? I have never lived on a reservation, my community is called a village, always has been and always will be with a population of 800.  We have a mayor, we have council members and we even have Pugwash, the garbage collector. We have corporate offices in Whitehorse and a three tier government.  But I assume that in your vast experience of FN, you knew that about most of the non-proclamation territories right? That you simply, in a moment of forgetfulness, forgot that not all FN communities are reserves and full of sad people, right?

As for complaining, you honour me with your valued opinion of me. I have only tried to emulate myself after yourself and it appears I have succeeded.  

Now a question for you ZC.  In a previous post, I included a link by the Six Nations.  In their site, they have gone to great lengths to name names of those they feel are responsible for creating acts of civil disobedience and as well, have gone to great lengths to give a somewhat detailed dates and places of incidents.  So with that information, what have you done with it? It is my understanding that one of your major complaints with the natives is the Caledonia barracading of a public road and ensuing problems.  Given that the Grand Council of the Six Nations is willing to "up the info" on those they feel responsible, have you done anything about it - in your powers as a police officer? Good luck with that.  



 

 

[Kirkhill]

We did it, we survived, we conquered we inflicted our values onto the indigenous population". - I hear the non-native say- same old, same old. First Nations never left, we never ran, we didn't enmasse leave the country of our ancestors for better places as we love the land of our ancestors.  We stayed. Even when our very existence was threatened, we stayed.  Non-native people don't get that.  They don't get there is no solution - we don't need a solution, we never left in all the attempts to by non-natives to assimilate, criminalize, separate, dehumanize and segregate us from our land.

Respectfully niner, while I fully understand your need for recognition and your right to defend that which is yours I would much prefer that we kept the hypocrisy of racial stereo-typing out of this discussion.  There was no paradise before the whiteman, as your own Great Law attests.  The archaeological record further supports the contention that people moved and conquered, assimilated, absorbed, enslaved and slaughtered before the whiteman showed up here.  The historical record of west coast natives shows this.  The Haida have a well earned reputation on the coast comparable to that of the vikings.  Nor were the Blackfoot on particularly good terms with the Assiniboine or the Flatheads when Palliser crossed the Southern prairies in the 1850s.

And within southern ontario there is an alternate history of relations between the Iroquoian Confederacy and the Huron/Algonkian alliance.  (That apparently is the source of my confusion over the linquistic group of the Hurons or Wendat)

Here is the story of the wars of Pre-Champlain southern Ontario as told by the Mississauga of the Algonkian Ojibway Cree at Rice Lake.  It isn't in complete conformity with your Confederacy's view.

http://www.ricelakecanada.com/A_WEBPAGES/histserpent.html

Again, this is not to denigrate your rights and desires to live the life you choose.  As a conservative I fully support that concept.  However the consequences of your decisions must be yours alone.  Dealing with a changing environment, both geographical and social, is something that we all have to contend with.  In the past your ancestors have contended with those forces using exactly the same tools that the whiteman has used.

Cheers again, Chris.