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Muslim girls allowed private swim test

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couchcommander said:
Because if I decided to join the RCMP but refused to wear anything but a kevlar helmet all the time, because my belief system says it's bad to get shot in the head, they'd probably tell me to go stuff it.

I've read sad and pathetic arguments before, (and I do appreciate your other posts) but this one is very high on the
WTF list.

You're answer is the worst fabrication I've ever read.  The question is how does it affect YOU.  Answer is, it doesn't, but you come
up with a fictional situations beyond reality and try to pass it off as a fact.

I mean it'd be like a devout Buddhist trying to join the infantry. "Sorry, I can't actually kill or even harm anyone, but if you prevent me from joining you are trampling my religious freedom." If your beliefs conflict with what you want to do, then maybe you should choose to do something else.

Another great really bizarre example.  AND off topic.

A SIHK wearing an turban can still perform all the functions of an RCMP officer.
A Buddist who wants to join the infantry but refuses to kill is unable to take on the functions.

The job of an RCMP officer is not to wear a hat but to police and they can do that just fine.

You're mixing up arguments.  But best of all, you still haven't proven how it tramples on your rights.
The best you can do is make hypothetical situations and try to pass them off as fact.
 
Sorry for not being more concise and less expositionary...

It affects me greatly.

By allowing certain individuals exceptions to the rules due to their belief structure, while denying others the same treatment because their beliefs are of a different nature, is to me, inherently hypocritical.

Yes, there have been situations in the past where this has been an issue which affected me personally, but I'm not about go whining about them, just let it be known that they happen.
 
Actually, i think I'm just not conveying my point.

Let me start from the beginning again and hopefully my "WTF" hypothetical situations make more sense.

Our society has, recently, been making a lot of concessions for the religious beliefs of people in society. Whether it be Jewish holidays, Sikh turbans, etc. I've italicized religious for a reason, which I will get to later.

In the end, I am not opposed to granting persons the leeway required so that they can follow their own belief structure. Indeed, the charter of rights and freedoms guarantees their freedom of religion.

If the courts of Canada and society as a whole have chosen to express this freedom of religion through making these special observances, then I suppose that's fine, but to me (as I had hoped to be demonstrated through my hypothetical extensions of this) if followed to their natural conclusions, they have some fairly strange and undesirable results.

This was supposed to be an example of Reductio Ad Absurdum, sorry if it didn't work. (See post below for how it was supposed to come across, sorry)

But I digress.

While granting freedom of religion, the charter also grants the same freedoms to belief, and not only that, but expression of belief:

Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
a) freedom of conscience and religion;
b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
d) freedom of association.

HOWEVER, and this is the crux, society is MUCH LESS accepting of allowances for "beliefs" if they are not qualified with "religious" in front of them.

To me, this is wrong for two reasons:

a) No distinction in the importance between the two is made in the charter

b) "religious beliefs" are in fact just that, beliefs like any other. There really is no fundamental logical difference between my belief that I shouldn't be required to work on Tuesday and someone Else's belief, albeit most likely for different reasons, that they shouldn't work sunday.

Thus, when applied to this particular situation, you find my original example:

If these Muslim girls are allowed to have their own private swim class because of their beliefs, then others should be granted whatever allowances they want due to their beliefs regardless of what they are.

To me, this leads to chaos, and a much better way of dealing with it would have been to have an equivalent alternative that people can choose to do instead, for whatever reason.

*edited for spelling and making senseness*
 
Now let me see if I can connect the dots on my arguments and show how they apply.

Muslim girl decides to attend public school, part of public schooling is swimming, special allowance granted re: swimming because girl is Muslim

If we follow that same logic:

Buddhist man decides to join infantry, part of infantry is killing people, special allowance must granted, if we are to follow precedent, re: killing because man is Buddhist.

Re: the turban

Man joins RCMP, part of mans belief dictates that he must wear a turban, RCMP makes allowance for him to wear turban

and then...

Man joins RCMP, part of mans belief says that he must wear Kevlar helmet (or i don't know, make a beanie or a hat with a happy face on it, whatever), RCMP, given precedent, must make allowance for man to wear Kevlar helmet (or beanie).

For this last example, remember, the charter grants the SAME freedom to both religious and non religious belief.

To me, at least, the results of these two processes of reasoning, as demonstrated by the second examples, are absurd, thus reductio ad absurdum. To me at least.

How do they affect me? I prefer to live is a slightly less chaotic civilization than that.

In the end though, if you still don't like these examples, then discount them as invalid and argue my main post (the middle one).
 
I wont lie..

I'm not liking you examples... I still want to argue the ability to do ones job.



However, I do appreciate the statement of beliefs are beliefs. That religious beliefs are taken
more seriously or more valued than beliefs that aren't religious.  I would agree with that.


The only reason I can think of why is that religious people are easily identifiable, with a
set standards of beliefs outlined by religion.

For example if I am Roman Catholic, you can already ball park many of my beliefs.  Put together
100,000 people who say their RC, and you have a formidable force.

If you, a non secular person, believes in XYZ, you stand alone, even if there are 100,000 other
people who share your belief, because you don't have an organization/structure which represents you.

There has to be other examples of this but non secular as you stated its religious.  I think minorities
(secular or not) can do the same.  Indians are a similar case in point, gays and lesbians are also
another case in point.  I don't think it comes down to just religious values, but groups that are
recognizeable. 


Now, not all changes are negative on a Christian society.

I LOVE Sunday shopping. 
For those who think I should rest on the sabbath, well, who's going to give the sermon?  ;)
 
Trinity said:
However, I do appreciate the statement of beliefs are beliefs. That religious beliefs are taken
more seriously or more valued than beliefs that aren't religious.  I would agree with that.

The only reason I can think of why is that religious people are easily identifiable, with a
set standards of beliefs outlined by religion.

For example if I am Roman Catholic, you can already ball park many of my beliefs.  Put together
100,000 people who say their RC, and you have a formidable force.

Indeed you do have a formidable force! To me though it would be tyranny of the masses to grant these beliefs predicent because they are simply more widely held.

Even though this is a common occurance in our society, it doesn't make it right IMO.

For the record, I do have a religion... but I'll keep it quiet what it is, maybe at some point you can PM me with a guess... ;)
 
Armymedic said:
Preteen and early teen girls are already somewhat uncomfortable with their bodies.

And that was relevant, how?

I'm sure there are an equally great number of preteen and early teen boys who are "somewhat uncomfortable with their bodies." ...Should they get free private swimming classes, too?
 
couchcommander said:
For the record, I do have a religion... but I'll keep it quiet what it is, maybe at some point you can PM me with a guess... ;)

Heathen?  ;)


Does is make it right!?!?!

The squeaky wheel always get the grease right?

If there is no dissenting opinion or opposition that seems credible ... by law yes, it is right.
But who ever said law was reality.  I would agree many people are left out voiceless because
either they don't voice it or don't belong or start a group to voice it.



EDIT
  Quote from: Armymedic on Today at 09:37:02
Preteen and early teen girls are already somewhat uncomfortable with their bodies.

Then stop staring at them.  ;)
 
HA HA HA HA

*Edit - WRT to the "stop staring at them" comment.  ;D
 
Frederik G said:
And that was relevant, how?

I'm sure there are an equally great number of preteen and early teen boys who are "somewhat uncomfortable with their bodies." ...Should they get free private swimming classes, too?
  Makes a great point...that would encompass growth and development issues more so than anything religious...I was made to do whatever was on tap at school as a pre-teen, whether that made me uncomfortable or not (I was an early bloomer) I did it and sucked it up as part of growing up.  Another issue that this topic brings forth is that not everything in life is going to be how you want it and you are going to have to live with what the MAJORITY in this country have decided is acceptable.

HL
 
Hot Lips said:
  Makes a great point...that would encompass growth and development issues more so than anything religious...I was made to do whatever was on tap at school as a pre-teen, whether that made me uncomfortable or not (I was an early bloomer) I did it and sucked it up as part of growing up.  Another issue that this topic brings forth is that not everything in life is going to be how you want it and you are going to have to live with what the MAJORITY in this country have decided is acceptable.

HL

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.. Care to clarify which side you stand on?

(And yes, I'm aware that I'm dense. Sue me.)
 
I wouldn't say I am on a side...I am more realistic about the issue...
The reason, as I understand it, that these girls are not going to take their swimming test is partly because they are uncomfortable doing so in front of boys and others and partly because of religious beliefs.
My point is that being uncomfortable in this country is going to occur to everyone at some point in time in their lives...agreed?
All of the laws and cultures and values in this country aren't going to appeal to everyone everyday...so in essence there are times when individuals needs are not going to be met, regardless of race, religion, stature, sexual orientation and the lot...

So I guess one must decide if they can live with what is facing them or move on to something that they can accept...make sense?

HL
 
I have read all the above posts and would like to add my own opinion on this topic.

I believe this is our problem in today's society. We as a country try to accommodate everyone. We do this why? I believe that we are loosing our own identity in this process. I believe that everyone has the right to practice their own religion. However they need to practice this in their churches etc. Not in our public school system.

If I were to go live in Afghanistan would I not be obligated to follow the countries ways( sorry lack of a better word). I do not think I could walk around in a scant Bikini. It was my choice to move to this country and I should follow the customs that represent that country.

Now if I wanted a private swim test because I did not like my body type, Would I be allowed the same courtesy as shown here. Probably not. If we start making exceptions for one, then we need to make exceptions for everyone.

Just to add a little side comment. My nieces went to a school and there was a significant amount of Mangerine attending the school. My nieces had to learn Oh Canada in mangerine. This was not a choice but they had to do this. They also celebrated Chinese new year. However the school did not have a Christmas concert because it would offend some people. Why was it this way? If we have to accommodate everyone beliefs, then why are our own beliefs and traditions are frowned upon in schools?
 
Hot Lips said:
My point is that being uncomfortable in this country is going to occur to everyone at some point in time in their lives...agreed?

But there in lies the issue HL, why be uncomfortable when the situation can be changed.

Trinity is right squeaky wheel, right or wrong that is how western society works in the modern age, if your voice is loud enough and can cause enough attention then your going to get your way. Right or Wrong that's how it happens. Gone are the days where we just did what we were told regardless of how "uncomfortable" it made us feel. Now you can just refuse to do something based on law X or Z and if your willing to fight hard enough you'll also win.
 
Agreed Booked_Spice...

When are the accommodations so great for others that we stop doing, believing and acting like we have for decades?

HL
 
Trinity said:
How does letting these 3 girls swim on their own affect YOUR way of life?
If I want to swim at that time I can't.
Trinity said:
You have no belief or reason to ask.

Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms : freedom of conscience and religion.
Exactly, so there are no recognized/non-recognized religion and no official/non-official religion. So if your religion is very "popular" or if your religion is almost unknown (i-e you are the only one following this religion) DOES NOT MATTER. It is just to easy to says "my religion wants it" ! What would it be if everyone starts to do this ?

One girl at my private school recently started to wear the veil. The school has always been VERY strict, non bandannas, no bracelets no NOTHING. Seem like they made an exception for her, but the rest of the 850 students must continue to take off their caps when they are on the school terrain (yeah, no hats even if outside the school building). What if I arrive at school tomorrow morning and say to the principal " My religion obliges me to wear sunglasses so I don't make eye contact with girls. " He should let me, Canada is a respectfull and tolerant country after all.

Bottom line : you can not ask for everything in the name of tolerance.

In France they had so many trouble with veils in school that they made it simple : no religious symbols = no little Jesus cross around the neck. Heck, how many Canadian soldiers fought and died so we could keep such basic freedoms ? I know than that is in France... but it is coming in North America. Hopefully we will not make the same mistake than Europe, hopefully.
Trinity said:
The Muslims took away singing of O Canada, the Lords prayer, forced us to call it a Holiday Tree?
Well, in France they want Maryanne to have a veil, they are getting pork out of the cafeterias, they sack the boutiques that have a Christmas crib... no actually they sack everything. Not in Canada ? Like I said, it is coming.
Trinity said:
They are Canadian.
Funny, but when the teacher asked every immigrant in my class last week if they considered themselves Canadian or not, ALL the answers were "Lebanese", "Algerian", "Libyan", etc.

And when you think about it, these girls, if they are don't want to swim with boys, it is not because they are scared to be laughed at, it is only because their religion brainwashed them since they were 3-years-old (Allah will punish you if you show your skin... ).
 
When I grew up and went to HS (and joined the reserves) gym locker rooms & showers were communal and just a big "effing" room where everyone used the facilities.

Then they put in shower stalls, private changing stalls, etc, etc.........

Is there any wonder that people have chosen to ask for "more"
 
Its becoming obvious that this issue is representative of many things in our society that, IMHO, a silent but unhappy portion of our society has been tolerating, albeit not happily.

So.  We've identified a potential problem.  What about potential solutions?  If this has gone too far one way...what do we do to steer it back to a happy medium where, as I think it shoud be, where most people are happy with the issue most of the time?

I think what most people are trying to express is...an unhappiness with the appearance that, IMO, we are accomodating "them" (them can be whoever you think it is or applies to your own situation) but...they are not accomodating us.  Examples?  The Lord's prayer is offensive to non-Christians, can't do that, the Holiday Tree....singing O Canada in a language OTHER than the 2 current "official" languages already recognized in our great country.

Canada is ALWAYS accomodating these 'special groups' yet...to a certain percentage of born and bread Canadians, we see these groups, whoever they may be...NOT accomodating Canada.  And that folks, IMHO, is the problem and the sore spot for those posting here...

So.  Again, are there solutions, ones that work for ALL Canadians and meet all the PC BS that they must pass in Canada 'at this time'.  (Because I think the times they are a-changing...slowly but still changing...)

My solution for this one ref the swimming?  "This is the way the public school system works.  You do have the choice to not partake in it, or to opt out of the swim test, however, if we make exceptions for you, we will have to do that for everyone, and this would be unmanageable."  Now, they have a choice.  Same as they have a choice to not go to the Christmas Concert if they are so against it.

But don't stop me, or "non special group of any kind" Canadians from swimming at lunch, or enjoying a Christmas Concert.

Thoughts?
 
Clément Barbeau Vermet said:
In France they had so many trouble with veils in school that they made it simple : no religious symbols = no little Jesus cross around the neck. Heck, how many Canadian soldiers fought and died so we could keep such basic freedoms ? I know than that is in France... but it is coming in North America. Hopefully we will not make the same mistake than Europe, hopefully.Well, in France they want Maryanne to have a veil, they are getting pork out of the cafeterias, they sack the boutiques that have a Christmas crib... no actually they sack everything. Not in Canada ? Like I said, it is coming.Funny, but when the teacher asked every immigrant in my class last week if they considered themselves Canadian or not, ALL the answers were "Lebanese", "Algerian", "Libyan", etc.


1)  this isn't France.  Comparing us to France is an insult.  That is like trying to say Quebec is like France because they both speak french.
Countries are different at the core and foundation.

2)  Your example in class.  So?  I have Scottish in me, I also say I'm Scottish. 



Am I to take your example as FACT for the whole country? I don't think so.  How do I know it even happened?

If Muslims started sacking Canada, trust me, I think we wouldn't stand for it.

If I want to swim at that time I can't.

As for  what if you want to swim during the same time the girls are.  Simple, make the swim test when the
pool is normally closed for public use.  Book the pool at a time when it's not in use.  TA DAH.  That was hard!
 
And when you think about it, these girls, if they are don't want to swim with boys, it is not because they are scared to be laughed at, it is only because their religion brainwashed them since they were 3-years-old (Allah will punish you if you show your skin... ).


Let's cool the jets a wee bit.

That is a right of the mark comment, with the "they were brain washed....because of Allah" comment

Take the time to go wash your brain and your views.  Otherwise you will feel the rath of 'MOD" not GOD..

dileas

tess
 
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