"MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles" and "Replace base MP with RCMP"

[TCBF]

"When in doubt - re-organize."

No.   How about "If it ain't broke - don't fix it!"

In Alberta, we generally love the RCMP - but as a provincial Force, their days may be numbered.  They feel such attachment to the Provincial missions that they have in the past felt the need to grossly underbid what they percieved as the base threshold for an Alberta PP.  End result - too few
ounties to do the job.  Darn good thing the ones we have are as good as they are.  But anyway, people whine, then they save money by closing crime labs.

No, the RCMP have too many missions as it is, and if we become another one, the most politically astute and connected police force in the country (at the top, virtually a Liberal palace guard) would no doubt free up a few Mounties from the forces "as a temporary measure", and we would be back to Regtl 25 man RP sections taking their turn on the main gate.

No, we need the Military police.  We are them, and they are us.  Even when they arrested me, I respected them  (1977!).  They are having some pains right now, but so are the other Arms and Services. And so are other police forces.  Sir Robert Peel has been dead a long time, or so it would seem.

Lets wish them all Good Luck and God Speed, and go slay some real dragons.

Britney, wots this about parking tickets at Lancaster Park?  I gotta go move my car...

Toronto get hit yet? ;Dt

Tom

 

[Edward Campbell]

There are two questions which we need to answer, it seems to me:

"¢ What 'police' services do we need in the CF - in peace and war, in garrison, in the field and at sea?

"¢ Who should provide them?

Until about the mid '60s, in the army, the primary duties of the Canadian Provost Corps were, in order:

"¢ Traffic control on the battlefield;

"¢ Custody of prisoners until they were interred; and

"¢ Assisting commanders in maintaining good order and discipline in garrisons and garrison-towns.

In most places, in Canada, when a commanding officer suspected an offence under the criminal code he was likely, on the advice of his local Provost Marshal, to call in the local civil police - that was still the case, just 25 years ago, when I was a commanding officer.

The Navy and the Air Force had quite different operational requirements:

"¢ Both required a high (higher than in the army) standard of garrison security - at dockyards and on flying stations.   The air force had a 'police' service which specialized in that sort of security.   The Navy, like the army, used a mix of the Canadian Corps of Commissionaires and military personnel - just more;

"¢ The Navy needed a 'shore patrol' to help captains maintain good order and discipline around naval bases and in ports of call; and

"¢ The Navy needed a 'security' force is some ports of call.   Each ship had a 'master at arms' (I think that's the right title) - a senior NCO from (I think) any trade who was given some extra, specialist training.   He ran security and the shore patrol.

The army also had its own 'high security' requirements - we had to provide guards for TDMs, for example, and anyone was an adjutant or IO back in the '60s will recall having to be responsible for a few highly classified registered publications - kept locked in one of the five safes in the battalion (one in BHQ found in either the adjutant's or IO's office, another in the signal officer's area, one in QM, one in paymaster's office and one in the UAS, if memory serves).   Basically, however, army units were responsible for their own security and arms units provided support to service units like Ordnance Field Parks which had plenty to guard but too few soldiers for the job.

In the late '60s/early '70s the MPs went through several reorganizations - including a monumentally stupid attempt to mix MPs and Int people.   In the process we, the army, lost - completely if our experience in the RV series of exercises in the '80s was any indication - the traffic control skills.   The intelligence service was reborn, better, in my view, than the army's old CIntC.   The MPs were required (and it is a real requirement) to assume some new security duties - especially regarding INFOSEC, which is, I believe, a major problem, still, today.   For reasons which are not clear to me the MPs appear - to me from my long retired perch - to be looking and acting more like civilian police officers; at least the ones here in Ottawa sure look and act that way.   I think they are, also, doing investigative work which was, as I said, routinely 'tasked' to civil police forces only 25 years ago.   Maybe the civilian police are not up to the task of investigating on large bases like Halifax, and, especially, in large bases in small towns like Gagetown and Borden.

I have no current knowledge of the MPs' investigative skills - I don't know how much training they receive vice, say, an OPP or Halifax or Ottawa City Police officer.   I knew, when I was still serving, that MPs were useless to the army in the field in their traditional operational tasks.   In my personal experience we had general staff officers cranking out road move/traffic plans - which should have been done, as a matter of routine, by the officers and NCOs of the brigade MP platoon - because it was beyond the skills and knowledge of the MPs.   Ditto the 'exercise' PW plan - I personally recall scouring old army pams to find the checklists, etc, which were then incorporated, by general staff officers, not MP officers, into orders for the MPs.   In other words, the MPs, in the '80s, were unable to do their jobs - quite useless to an army formation commander.   Perhaps things have improved.

Clearly, the MPs have many important duties including INFOSEC and embassy security, and, according to the CFPM's 2004 annual report traffic control for the army, too.   My question would be: are all those duties being done well enough and economically enough within the existing structure?

Alternative Service Delivery has been top of the pops in NDHQ since the late '80s, at least.   Almost every single function has been examined and re-examined and contracting out is fair game for many.   There is no reason why police services should not be subjected to the same examination.   I think the idea of splitting investigation from e.g. security and tactical operations may have some merit.   Shooting the messenger is precisely the wrong answer - it makes one wonder if the MPs are reverting to old army (and navy and air force, too, I hasten to add) style and digging in to preserve their empire and hide their failures - they would not be the first.

Edit to correct typo.

 

[canadianblue]

Good post Jumper, out in my area the RCMP stretched pretty thin. Plus the amount of paperwork compared to other civilian agencies is apparently attrocious. As well unless their was a specific division, or a detachment in each base then the military community could really end up losing out on having a good police presence.

 

[paracowboy]

some really good posts, here. It hasn't changed my mind in any way, but the information is appreciated.

Question for ya, though. You say that the MP training not being accepted by civil LEOs is a myth. Why then, did the local RCMP office and EPS office both tell me that no later than last month?

 

[FastEddy]

Jumper I can list at least 7 instances I know of that people walked due to the MP in question botching it.

I know some good MP's and some bad ones - happens everywhere inc civilian policing.   We had MP's in Afghan begging to go out on stuff with us since they where sick of doing traffic accident investigations...

Yes Kevin, there no denying that fact, but you must be fair in also realizing that this is also a fact of life
in the best of Police Dept.s. (The O.J. Simpson Trial) (The Rodney King Incident).

As for all Police Officers (RCMP - FBI - CIA) they have their share of not quite so competent members as does
all of the Branch's of any Service.

If in your opinion, the Military Police lacks the Training and Professionalism its not the fault of the Branch
BUT THE FAULT OF THE CANADIAN ARMY for not providing it. Maybe we should be sending our MP after Basic and Corps Training to the RCMP Depot to round them off. Isn't the Recruitment standards pretty much the same for both. It would appear that in everybody's opinion we seem to be getting all the duds, if thats the case, are the Recruitment Centres out to Lunch

I find it difficult to understand the reasoning behind the sentiment that the MP are not Soldier enough.
I guess this also applies to Cooks - Clerks - Mechanics - PayMasters - Medics.

It might be a coincident that the majority of those people who would like to see the MP turned into
almost nothing more than Security Guards also have axe to grind, or perpetuating the MP Myth.

 

[CH1]

Sorry Guys

I have to say that Jumper has expressed things pretty closely. I have known more than a handful of MP's, including some that I went into the service with.  There is good & bad in every bunch including RCMP & Municipal forces.

To replace the meat heads, on base, I think would be a detriment.  There is occasions were other police were brought in to aid MP's in an investigation.  Due to the nature of the investigation, the "civvie" police forces, were unable to enter areas, due to security concerns, & the fact that military life can be complicated with the layers of regulations, treaties, etc.  Some of these are well out of the practical aspects of a civvie police force.  This is not meant to be  a derogatory comment on the abilities of civvie police forces.  The fact is that military are not only subject to civil & CCC, but to a myriad of other laws.  In addition to this, the military responds to a variety of scenarios that a civvie is lucky to even hear about.  We lead a lifestyle that is radically different from from "Joe Civvie".

Over the years I have seen several instances where the meatheads have made reccomendations to the Provost Marshall, Jag, or CO, that actually salvaged some careers, & made a better soldier out of the miscreant. Had these matters been handled by other police forces, there would not have been an understanding of the background that formed the offence.

One investigation I was personally involved in, the RCMP deferred to the MP's.  The MP's had point in the investigation from the start to finish.  This was a Criminal code case.  Unfortunatly the disposition was taken out of the MP's hands.

I guess in short I support the MP's.  But like all areas of the CF, trg has suffered.

Cheers

 

[Michael Shannon]

The problem with the MP/NIS as an investigative police force as opposed to traffic control etc. is that they lack experience dealing with crime. The CF is a pretty law abiding group and there simply isn't enough crime for investigators to cut their teeth on. The criminal volume is too low to gain the experience needed to be good investigators. The consequence of this is the almost complete inability of the MP to investigate serious matters in a timely manner. I've seen cases that would have taken a week to investigate by the RCMP drag on for 8-9 months in MP hands and then have the prosecution flounder because of poor techniques. Another downside of this low volume is that matters which would be handled by a civilian police force through informal means get blown out of proportion as the MPs have nothing else to do.

    I propose that the "Field Police" be formed to conduct the traditional roles of the MP, traffic control and security tasks and that CF bases  fall within existing RCMP detachment areas for criminal policing. The NIS would be disbanded and it's duties handled by the RCMP. RCMP members have been peacekeeping for years and it would be no problem to attach a small cell to an operational tour for investigations.

 

[GO!!!]

It's obvious that a number of members on this form are grossly misinformed about the capability and role of the Military Police. It is also obvious from the tone of some of the posts that a number have an "axe to grind" and don't think we are real soldiers. First before I comment my background: I have operational tours with the UN and NATO as a Military Policeman, NIS and War Crimes Investigator. I have 6 years in the CFNIS and during my tour was seconded to the RCMP GIS and Major Crime unit here in Edmonton. I have field experience (CAR)(and remuster from 011)   and base patrol experience as an MP all over the country. I have worked with several civilian police forces as a result of my job and I can tell you that in my 23 years I have never heard a disparaging word about the MPs from my civilian counterparts, once they have had an opportunity to work with us. So I feel I have a rather unique perspective on the Military Police and their capabilities in comparison with our civilian counterparts.

Seeing as the lower ranking members of the military are the people subjected to your conduct and behaviour on a daily basis, I feel that we have a unique perspective on MP issues and capabilities. Since the MPs do not release any statistical info about their success in preventing crime or successful charges, we are forced to rely on anecdotal evidence, which exists in abundance.

First I'll address the issue of professional competence, as this has been alluded to a few times with comments about unsolved crimes and MPs not doing their job. Most of these comments can be taken with a VERY large grain of salt, are allegorical in nature, and have no basis in fact. In fact most of the criticism of the branch comes not from other Police Dept's (who see us as extremely competent believe it or not) but from junior members in the CF who have very little knowledge or understanding of the concept of policing in the CF ,and have a hard time with Cpls issuing them traffic tickets. However, to be realistic all police forces have unsolved crimes and the RCMP are no better than the Military Police, probably worse, because unlike the RCMP, the military doesn't have to pay overtime and we can dedicate much more manpower and resources to a serious crime more so than they can.

How about this for â Å“professional competenceâ ? if we have such a Cadillac police force, why are they unable to prevent theft and vandalism of vehicles and recreational vehicles on bases? Why are they unable to keep the shacks from being hotboxed on the weekends? Why do such a large proportion of those charged with DUI by the MPs walk on a technicality? Why is there no access control onto the bases?   In Edmonton, there is only access control on the weekends â “ but not at all during the week â “ why can't the MPs secure the base 24/7? If manning became an issue, use the reservist MP's.

On to training, our QL 3 training encompasses 6 months plus a provisional employment program (probation). We have a code of conduct which we must abide by and a Military Police Complaints Commission (made up of civilians) where complaints can be made against military police or by military police who feel interference from the chain of command. We have the all the professional oversight, ethics and training that our civilian counterparts do. And in regards to professional competency; well we have a member training RCMP recruits at Depot in Regina at this very moment, and members seconded to the RCMP units across Canada. In the past we have also had members teach at the Canadian Police College. (So much for that myth).

And  members of my unit are completing the  assaulter crse right now. That does'nt mean that the Canadian Infantry Corps are superior. It means that we, like all other trades, have over â “ achievers. In addition to this, if you have all of the same trg as an RCMP officer, why are criminal investigations handed over to the NIS? And why is MP trg not recognised nationally as the equivalent of Civilian police forces?

Cost has been mentioned a few times. The RCMP would be vastly more expensive than the MP and bases would get less police coverage. Consider the base salary of an RCMP Constable (approaching $70,000) plus overtime, compare that to a Cpl. If a large base like Edmonton were to hand over policing to the RCMP the nearest detachment is in Morinville 20 min away. PMQ residents MAY, MAY see a Constable drive thru their area a couple of times a week, and that would only be to respond to a call (no proactive policing). The ratio of members to the civilian population is 1 constable to approx 1100 people. The static population of CFB Edmonton would be entitled to 1.5 -2 constables, vice an MP Det of 25. Simply put, PMQ residents and Base Commanders could expect a significant reduction in police service. (CFB Gagetown is a good example of this) No responce to barking dog complaints, prowlers, Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door, noise complaints, minor thefts, B&E's etc either. The CF has, to put it bluntly "Cadillac Policing Services" at this present time. Just to give you an example; recently here in Edmonton the Military Police solved the largest armed robbery in the area's history, which occurred at the Credit Union, the MP were on scene in minutes. The individual initially got away, however as a result of good police work, the MP caught the suspect, recovered almost all the money and solved several crimes for Edmonton City Police and the RCMP. The criminal's mistake: committing a robbery not in a little town with one RCMP member on duty but in a "little town"(CFB Edmonton) that could commit a task force of 25 MP plus the local NIS to solve the crime. The CF didn't have to pay overtime or worry about members getting time off etc.  

The costs associated with hiring the RCMP would be more than recovered by the costs of folding the MP trg system, and doing away with   MP chains of command. Also, consider that Cpls make 53K a year, and MPs receive a bonus on top of this, the salaries are close. Also, the infrastructure that the MPs receive on bases (MP shacks, crash trucks, new patrol cars every 2 years etc.) When consolidated with the RCMP would undoubtedly contain a savings of scale.

Another point that was raised; was that if we got rid of MP policing more of them could do what they were meant to do; PW handling and Route signing. That's part of our role however I've been in for 23 years and I haven't signed one route yet overseas, neither have I guarded huge PW cages or PWs at all for that manner. In fact in an operational theatre, it was my technical skills as a policeman that were requested by Commanders (solving crime)not my ability to pound routes signs into the ground. And once all the troops are in situ the MP revert to a policing role anyway, if you take the domestic policing role from them at home where will they get their experience?  

That is the problem. There are never enough MPs around who have the soldier skills (navigation, patrolling) to properly locate and sign the routes. As a result, the units do   it themselves. If the MPs were patrolling the routes, the investigations could be done by the RCMP. As for never having guarded a PW cage, we have'nt done Airborne or armoured Bde ops in 23 years either - it does'nt mean that we should'nt retain that ability.

Major Crime services was another point some mentioned a combination of NIS/RCMP. Again cost and manpower would be a limiting factor as many of the crimes that are investigated by the MP would not be considered serious enough by the RCMP to commit resources to. And other than the one RCMP Inspector seconded to the NIS thee RMCP have no desire to second members to the CF because of manning issues of their own. Plus their salaries would have to be paid by the CF (expensive)

If the crime is not considered serious enough for the RCMP to devote resources to, why are the MPs investigating at all? This sounds like a bit of a make work project to me... In addition, I doubt the MP/NIS Officer salaries are much less than an RCMP equivalent.

Someone mentioned that if the RCMP were policing they could charge CF members under the Criminal Code vice the NDA, well I've been doing that my whole career, MP testify in civil court all the time.   However we must realize that NDA exists for a reason; a tool for Commanders to instill discipline. I believe someone mentioned that NDA offences could be investigated by the unit, really? Would you want a member/officer of your own Regiment with a rudimentary knowledge of the law (at best) and your Charter Rights etc. investigating you? Or would you rather have an impartial third party who has training.

Well, we already have an officer of our regiment with â Å“rudimentaryâ ? knowledge DEFENDING us as an assisting officer, so why should we stack the investigators, but not the defence?

Finally (I have rambled on enough) one last comment I really take umbrage with the inferences by some members on this form that we (MP) are somehow not "real soldiers". I have very good friends who bombed up with the infantry in Afghanistan and accompanied them on a number of missions. As a member of the CAR, I and the other tradesmen jumped and carried the same equipment as the grunts so give me a break with all soldier stuff. Just because my fellow tradesmen wear a black uniform doesn't mean that their any less dedicated than the "real soldiers".

I was in A'stan in 2002, and I never once saw an Canadian MP other than at the front gate of the Canadian Biv.   Ditto on missions â “ and I participated in all but one as a rifleman. Not saying it did'nt happen, but I did'nt see any. In addition to this, The only time I have seen MPs at work on Bde or lower exercises is at the entrance to WATC camp from the trg area. I even saw an MP in his patrol car on red route once! I don't question the dedication of the MPs, I question the necessity of their trade, given the alternatives available.

I also take exception to your inference that the MPs are somehow â Å“more dedicatedâ ? than their civilian counterparts. Other than the unfortunate accident with the MP car being rear ended in Suffield last year, I can think of 6 Mounties killed in the line of duty in recent memory. I cant remember an MP being shot at or injured, or even being in a situation that there was a threat of it.

Also, MPs receive spec pay, do they not? What is the justification for this?

And, not to start too much of a pi$$ing match, but if you were in the Airborne, then would'nt you be a steel/whiteleafjumper?

[Moderator edit:  OPSEC - no numbers, locations.]

 

[Roy Harding]

And, not to start too much of a pi$$ing match, but if you were in the Airborne, then would'nt you be a steel/whiteleafjumper?

Uh, GO!!, I think you're confusing Jumper (who you were quoting and refuting) with redleafjumper.

 

[GO!!!]

Damn! Indeed I have - apologies to both. :-[

 

[canadianblue]

On to training, our QL 3 training encompasses 6 months plus a provisional employment program (probation). We have a code of conduct which we must abide by and a Military Police Complaints Commission (made up of civilians) where complaints can be made against military police or by military police who feel interference from the chain of command. We have the all the professional oversight, ethics and training that our civilian counterparts do. And in regards to professional competency; well we have a member training RCMP recruits at Depot in Regina at this very moment, and members seconded to the RCMP units across Canada. In the past we have also had members teach at the Canadian Police College. (So much for that myth).

And 3 members of my unit are completing the JTF assaulter crse right now. That does'nt mean that the Canadian Infantry Corps are superior. It means that we, like all other trades, have over â “ achievers. In addition to this, if you have all of the same trg as an RCMP officer, why are criminal investigations handed over to the NIS? And why is MP trg not recognised nationally as the equivalent of Civilian police forces?

From what I understand MP's, and Railway Police are not recognized as an equivalent to the civilian force, simply due to the fact their is a difference in structure, duties, etc.

As well if the RCMP did take over policing duties for the military, I would think they would need to make detachments in the bases. Otherwise their will be little police presence in your base.

 

[dano]

Also, MPs receive spec pay, do they not? What is the justification for this?

Probably because they require a post secondary diploma.

 

[canadianblue]

The MP's probably lose alot of good candidates because of that post secondary requirment. I don't know of a single other Law Enforcement agency that does that, the closest is Edmonton Police Service, but even then you can still meet the requirments if you have worked for two years straight.

 

[GO!!!]

The requirement for post secondary education would seem to be redundant, as all of the relevant topics are covered again in your MP trg.

In addition to this, real police forces recognise that the police foundations course is just that, and not a substitute for real life experience. Which is exactly why forces like the EPS prefer to recruit slightly older recruits, with a few years of working in a job,  as opposed to a 19 year old with High School and a community college diploma.

The Military Police take that same 19 year old, and promote him to Cpl immediately, with his peace officer bonus.

I'm still not quite sure why this happens.

 

[childs56]

If i am understanding this every member of the MP's worked for the NIS, they have all been trained in investigations and are current in their ability to carry them out. Every member has worked on numerous UN and NATO tours and asssited in the war crimes investigations, have helped to solve numerous cases to which they were an outstanding help to the civil police authorities.

Now that i have asked those questions. I now will say this, i have dealt with the MP's numerous occasions, i have also dealt with NIS on a few more occasions then i would really want to remember. I have had good and bad experiences with the MP's, usually they have been good, usually it has been when some one was to drunk and needed to have a break from what they were about to do. So the MP's were a great help. I personally lent the MP's my video camera in Bosnia so they could carry out an investigation and document the info they needed. I have a respect for the MP's but when i see them on a regular basis speeding around in their police cars to head to town and that i kinda get disappointed in that action. I know a guy who was drunk whom gained entry to HMC Dock yard and boarded a ship by climbing over a fence when the MP's caught him they couldn't believe he got to where he was, so all charges were dropped. Great security. Dock yard is a secure and sensitive place. I really do not think all MP's are bad but i doubt very many of them have the time and experience as indicated above by other members. I think that is why people have a hard time with them.

I would like to see the MP's go to their Depot in Regina, it would be money well spent i think, turn the MP's into a proper police force on par with any civilian force in Canada. Then teach them the Military side of their duties. That way we could eliminate the need for them to ask for outside help in laying of certain charges, they could almost be a branch off of the RCMP as they are a national Police force under the Department of Defense.

I have one very big problem with one of the statements made above in regards to the Air India bombing, That i don't feel was a proper comment made, the fact that the reasons for the findings of that had much more to do with national security then the government has let on, then the actual investigation by the RCMP, and the other government agencies that were involved CSIS, immigration,and a few others. All a big cover up to protect our true problems with in our country. To compare that with the MP's history is absurd.  

Now as for blowing smoke please tell me how i am blowing smoke, i would very much like to know. I really doubt as i stated above that all MP's are as well trained as you are, please inform me of the smoke i was blowing. You are one of many MP's on a force. Although you are highly trained the others that are with you are most likely not. Maybe i am wrong here but i doubt it. How about across the force, how many have the type of Police back ground as you do? just curious i would like to know just as a curiosity.

Any ways my problems with the MP's are not axe grinding as stated above or may have been insinuated. It is from actual real life dealings with them and watching them as they perform their duties. I agree not every one is bad and all trades and jobs have good and bad people. But i do know this if i had something stolen off the base and i called the Police they would have come to look at where the object was and then also looked to see if their were any finger prints, this small but major detail was omitted from my last dealing with the MP's. How do you expect to catch any one if they didn't even look or try to gather any evidence. guess it was another Axe to grind on my part. No this is real life and the expectations on my part would have to had a police officer come over look at where the object was, maybe see if it was possible to take prints, or even foot prints. Yet they failed to do this, the rudimentary of police work done when a theft has occurred. Maybe i am wrong i am not sure. But that is what the city and RCMP have done when things have been stolen.   Any ways i want to say i don't mean to label all MP's the same way. I know their are good and bad. It is to bad the bad ones seem to be the most prevalent

 

[Infanteer]

Yuck, use some paragraphs - your post hurts my eyes.

 

[CH1]

With all due respect Gentlemen.

Go ahead & screw with CN or CP Police. It is go directly to jail.  Provincially & Federally, they are lawful Peace officers.  There is also 1 other force, but at this moment I can't remember who.  It is now not uncommon to see them with a municipal force or RCMP, for trg.  Take note, they carry side arms in most cases.  In B.C. they go into town & on the highway with the RCMP.  They have been doing traffic stops etc, writing tickets & doing investigations.

My own opinion is that they shouldn't venture too far out of their confines.  They are hired & paid by CN & CP.  I guess they can loosely called a modified municipal force, with federal powers.

Cheers

 

[Blackhorse7]

I don't know where the idea came fom that Civvie LE thinks less of the MP's.  It certainly didn't come from me.  I can see how maybe some investigations may be tossed for technicalities on an MP's part, but ONLY because they may not come across it as much as a civvie LE would.  I have all the time in the world for my fellow MP's out there. 

I'm just selfish, want my RCMP pay, while still being a part of the Big Green Machine as well.  Read into that "I should be allowed to be in the RCMP AND the Reserves at the same time."

 

[FGH_Recce_DJ]

To bad you couldn't come back.....you were one heck of a soldier!!!

 

[Blackhorse7]

I'm not your type, FGH, but thanks for the flattery!!  ;D

Good to see you posting again!  Have not heard from you in awhile....