"MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles" and "Replace base MP with RCMP"

[Poppa]

Brilliant!

This is something I can get behind and I know a lot of others who think the way I do.

Primary Reserve would concentrate on the Force Protection, Mobility and Detention Ops tasks with their primary role being to augment Reg Force MP in the Force Protection role at home and when deployed on Ops.   This would be reinforced by the realignment of Reserve MP to collocate them with Reg Force Force Protection units to provide 10 Reserve MP Pls totalling approximately 300 pers all told.   This may prove problematic in recruiting in relation to Cold Lake, Petawawa and Bagotville depending on the demographics.   If this were the case, any non-sustainable locations would have their designated Reserve Pl re-located to another suitable large base of the same element where they would support the Guardhouse in its Force Protection Ops.   All other Reserve MP units would disappear.   Although this will be a dissatisfier for those in the Militia who want to get into the Pol Ops role, this will certainly fix their biggest complaint in that they will have an actual role which will be executed when augmenting us at home and abroad as they would have the same skill set as a Reg Force QL3 who deployed.   The Reserve MP would also eventually become the brain trust of Force Protection Ops as it relates to each environment as a Reservist from Winnipeg generally stays there whereas a Reg Force guy will stillbe posted through the various positions.

This sounds a lot like what I've been having debates/arguments/drag down fights with at the acadamy. Where it has been said that training for anything but police roles was digressing and archaic.

Now MP 00161 do you honestly think that after all expenses and effort put into the reorg of the branch that we will head down this road?
Area PM are now considered CO's in relation tp MP assets. I don't know if this affects the CMBGs or not more to follow when I figure out the C2 relationship.
Maybe with a Navy guy being named the new CFPM everything thats been done in the past 10 years or so will be a moot point. Watch and shoot I guess.

 

[Meridian]

I did not read the replies (sorry!) but my one and only comment on the initial post is that it would seem that removing military policing from the current MP MOC and adding in force protection would be the same thing (more or less) as creating a MOC just for force protection.

From a recruiting perspective; MANY people join up as MP"s to get the requisite experience before going off to be a Peace oFficer in a civilian life. How many people will sign up to be force protection? To basically be the guys who get shot at, but never the guys who get to do the shooting?

Realistically... How do you think these guys will be treated, vis-a-vis the "real troops at the sharp(er) end", and what kind of prestige will come from being force protection, if it is already looked at as a "menial task"?

 

[garb811]

Poppa:

I have a better chance of winning the lottery than seeing the Branch move this far into the Force Protection game.  There would be considerable inertia against such a move not only from the Reg Force but also from the Reserves for reasons too numerous to mention.  Even if they do decide to stand up another dedicated â Å“deployableâ ? unit, I do not have high hopes for it given the rumours that had been floating about the Pl to be stood up in Kingston not so long ago.

Is the new CFPM going to change things?  Well...quite honestly I would say not at this point.  He definitely isn't going to be able to undo the last 10 years of changes as they are enshrined in formal legislation and case law for the most part.  Nor should he IMHO, he needs to build on them.  Unless we get a chunk of the â Å“5000â ?, the Branch is not going to be in a position to shift enough PYs around to stand up any kind of dedicated Force Protection unit.  I just hope the Kingston Pl doesn't resurface.  Also look at the Snr Officers who are left in the Branch...not too many with divergent thinking from the party line if you know what I mean.

Quite honestly, I'm not sure what the standing up of the MP Coys with control of the Guardhouses is going to do.  This will only affect the Army guardhouses, at least to my knowledge, and the Guardhouses are supposed to be immediately OpCon'd back to the bases.  About the only thing I can see this achieving is making it easier for the APM to put his finger in the force generation pie as Base Commanders will no longer be able to decline tasks to â Å“theirâ ? MPs.  Of course, this takes a step in the direction that the Dickson Commission wanted the Branch to go and it certainly must have â Å“she who shall not be named lest she reappearâ ? grinning from ear to ear as she tried to accomplish this a few times.  Time will tell I guess and it certainly is something to watch.

I'm not 100% sure what the current status of the MP Pls is.  The Pls were supposed to remain with the Bde, as opposed to being transferred to the MP Coys.  The one big change, and I'm shaking my head because we're shooting ourselves in the foot, is that the Bn Sheriffs would belong to the Pl with them being pushed back out to the Bns much like the Medical Branch is doing.  IMHO it would be a HUGE mistake to bring the MP Pls into the newly formed MP Coys.  Not only would the MPs lose their place at the Bde â Å“tableâ ?, the temptation would be too great to shuffle people back and forth between the Guardhouse and Pl willy-nilly.  â Å“Under PS investigation?  Right, off to the Pl with ya!â ? as well as â Å“You're not on Ex so you might as well be working shift...training? Bah, Pol Ops is the priority!â ?  This isn't just speculation either, it happened quite frequently in the past, at least in one of the Pls.

As for fighting with the Academy about these issues, barking up the wrong tree.  Until the CFPM, who is now the MA for the Branch, mandates the Academy to teach these subjects their hands are tied even if they wanted to do it.  Unfortunately, the school is also very â Å“policeâ ? oriented, but for a good reason, so it's not like they would even want to pursue these subjects independently. 

Realistically... How do you think these guys will be treated, vis-a-vis the "real troops at the sharp(er) end", and what kind of prestige will come from being force protection, if it is already looked at as a "menial task"?

We're meatheads already, how can the treatment get any worse?   As for the prestige, make it a task worth doing and people will want to do it.  Unfortunately, you're right, many people seem to think that coming to the Branch will give them some kind of leg up in relation to getting onto a civilian service.  I think I've said this elsewhere, but those guys are the ones who seem to have the hardest time getting hired at a civilian police service as 1) they generally don't do well in the Branch as they are focused on getting out and 2) they generally don't do well in the civilian testing as they are focused on getting out and 3) they seem to have applied to every police service under the sun prior to "settling" on MP and have no hesitation about telling anyone who'll listen that the only reason they became a MP was to gain experience.  My observation is that the MPs who get hired are guys who would have got hired even if they were a plumber at the time they applied to the civilian police.  Until civilian services accept MPs as experienced applicants, although rumours abound about places that do, they really aren't gaining that much of an advantage IMHO.

 

[Dissident]

From my perspective, your proposal seems like a good idea. Just don't tell Coy that I've said that! But like you said, chances are, it will not happen anyway.

What I always wanted is a chance to have access to the same training as the reg. Being integrated with the reg force unit would minimize the disparities in training. Althought The realities of a reservist would still put a damper on training and exercises, we would have a much better chance to meet and maintain the standards.

I just want to add that I think a much bigger number of res MP's should be considered. Maybe as far as twice as much.

 

[GO!!!]

This has come up a few times in the last few days, and has obviously not been laid to rest (enough) before.

I for one think that we as a military would be better served by the RCMP, for a couple of reasons.

1) The purpose of many of the social engineering programs we are subjected to is to make the CF reflect the Canadian public. The use of the RCMP as opposed to our own in house security unit would definitely alleviate this concern of preferential treatment. This would also free up more MPs for deployments, where they could concentrate on MP duties, like route security and PW handling.

2) The RCMP are internationally recognised for their policing prowess, while the MPs are unable, as a group, to police their tiny bases for anything other than traffic offences and the odd domestic dispute. Should you wish to dispute this, I would point to the high rates of theft of and from vehicles and drug use on bases, which the MPs are unwilling or unable to clean up.

3) By having the RCMP conduct investigations and lay charges in accordance with the Canadian Criminal Code and not the CSD, we would subject our troops to the same justice system that civilians are liable to, and cut down severely the polarised punishments that are handed out by CF officers at their discretion. I'm not saying that we should do away with summary trials or court marshals, only that troops should be subjected to one or the other, not both, and that it should be done properly. (the punishment fitting the crime)

4) The cost of having a set number of RCMP officers would undoubtedly be offset by the cuts that could be made to the MP trg system, and associated operational infrastructure and maintenance costs.

I believe that having our bases policed by the RCMP would have the benefit of excellent policing by an impartial organisation, with cost reductions for the CF to boot.

Any thoughts?

 

[paracowboy]

abso-freakin'-lutely.

 

[KevinB]

110%

 

[childs56]

here here

 

[FGH_Recce_DJ]

Outstanding idea, cost effective, reliable, and it would give alot of RCMP officers who may have been in the military before (such as Blackhorse7) a small way to maybe get back into what they miss so much since they got out. Send it up to Uncle Paul, it's a great idea!! Cheers!

 

[canadianblue]

How about this, lets get rid of the Military Police as it stands now, and then the RCMP can create a new division which is made to do police work on Military Bases. As well, if we are to lose the Military Police, what do we do with the 7th largest police force in Canada which is currently the MP's. While I want to get into law enforcement, if I enjoy the military I'd still like an avenue to to still be a part of the CF as a law enforcement member.

 

[Infanteer]

As well, if we are to lose the Military Police, what do we do with the 7th largest police force in Canada which is currently the MP's.

Well, if all else fails, we are at war and 031 boots can be filled.

Other than that, if the main interest is policing as opposed to soldiering, than I'm sure the RCMP will be asking for new members if they were take on Military Policing roles.

 

[redleafjumper]

I can't agree with this one.  The RCMP is a civil police force, it has as its role the maintenance of law an order in civil society.  It is primarily tasked with enforcement of the criminal code as well as provincial statutes and even municipal bylaws.  The job of a civil police officer is a relatively "peaceful" one.  It can be dangerous work, but it in no way compares to the sort of commitment and responsibility required of a military police officer.  For my tastes, such a suggestion would give one agency far too much jurisdiction and responsibility for enforcement in a very complex area. 
Certainly in history one could point to the use of volunteers from the RCMP as military police in wartime, but that is quite different from having the force as a whole serve as the agent of the provost marshall.  Yes, RCMP have served on various international NATO, humanitarian and UN missions; that's a good example of using RCMP specialists in their area of expertise - mainly training civil police forces and doing forensics at war crimes. Remember that military police have responsibility for law enforcement and police work in military environments and potentially in war. 

Far from gaining the support of the civil population, I would see such a plan as a clear step towards what is popularly called a police state.  The RCMP is already very much a paramilitary police force with some military aspects to its history.  Having the RCMP serve as military police when the roles required are in my opinion, quite different, would be a terrible mistake.  No thanks.

 

[1feral1]

In France, the Military Police are the police for the entire country.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[redleafjumper]

I was asked once by an American what the difference was between our police and theirs.  I simplified it like this:
In the United States you have the FBI which handles matters of federal jurisdiction, you have State Police that handle State policing and interstate traffic.  You have city police that handle municipal matters and you elect Sheriffs to be the senior police officials in counties.  Each of those police agencies has a clearly defined jurisdiction with the clear aim of protecting the rights of the citizenry.  When you are dealing with an RCMP officer you are speaking to a police officer with potential and real jurisdiction in all those areas. 

For my rights, I would rather not see that extensive jurisdiction extended further.

 

[GO!!!]

redleaf,

While I understand your concern in regards to the militarisation of Canadian law enforcement, I believe that you have misunderstood me.

I am proposing a police force totally seperate from the military and it's chain(s) of command. The RCMP, would, by all terms of the meaning, police the CF. It would not be subordinate to the CDS or any other military member. The only common ground would be the location.

If anything, I think that this would detract from the possibility of the formation of a police state by making the relations of the RCMP and CF adversarial in nature, not complementary.

If you did understand and I offered a needless clarification, I apologise.

 

[redleafjumper]

To add to Wes's comments, Wikepedia lists this explanation of the composition and roles of the French Police.  The French model is certainly not one that I would support for Canada.  In response to GO!!!, I believe that the military police has to be under the jurisdiction of the military and the civil police should be under the jurisdiction of the civil authority. 

Redleafjumper

Agencies

France has two national general-purpose law enforcement agencies:

    * the Police Nationale (civilian force; primary responsibility in urban areas; run under the Ministry of the Interior)
    * the Gendarmerie Nationale (military force; primary responsibility in rural areas and military installations; run under the Ministry of Defence and under operational control for most purposes under the Ministry of the Interior)

In addition, the national government has a Customs service (Douanes). Those three agencies are the only ones legally capable of making full arrests or serving search warrants.

Local governments (communes) may maintain a Police Municipale ("Municipal police") forces, which have very limited law enforcement powers outside of traffic issues and local ordinance enforcement. Rural communes may also form a garde champêtre or Police Rurale ("Rural Police"), which is responsible for limited local patrol and protecting the environment.
[edit]

Police vs Gendarmerie

The existence of two national police forces with similar goals and attributions, but somewhat different zones of activity, has at times created friction or competition between the two. Their merging has sometimes been suggested.

Since 1941, the division of the zones of activity between the Police and the Gendarmerie was that cities with more than 10,000 inhabitants were handled by the Police, and the remaining ones by the Gendarmerie. However, with the development of suburban dwellings, this had increasingly proved inadequate. Furthermore, the shifting of a town from a Police to a Gendarmerie zone was often controversial, because, typically, a gendarmerie units serves a wide area. A redistribution of competency was thus decided, and implemented between 2003 and 2005. Large conurbations will be handled by the Police in their entirety. Rural and periurban areas, as well as some smaller cities with populations ranging from 5,000 to 16,000, will be handled by the Gendarmerie.[1]

In addition, the Police and the Gendarmerie have specific zones of competency:

    * the Police handles questions regarding the entrance and stay of foreigners (border police);
    * the Gendarmerie handles all matters regarding the military, as well as police at sea, the security of airports, and the security of certain public buildings (Republican Guard).

Local Police or Gendarmerie precincts may not be capable of conducting complex investigations. For this reason, both the Police and the Gendarmerie maintain regional services dedicated to criminal investigations (police judiciaire); these are known as "regional services of judiciary police" in the Police, "research sections" in the Gendarmerie. In addition, both the Police and the Gendarmerie maintain laboratories dedicated to forensics. Most criminal enquiries are conducted by the Police. Justice may choose either service; sometimes, if the judiciary is disappointed by the results or the methods of one service, it may give the enquiry to the other service.

The National Police also features some central offices with national jurisdiction, charged with specific missions, such as the national anti-terrorist division.

Both the Police and the Gendarmerie have SWAT teams. The Gendarmerie has the foremost and best-known, the GIGN; the Police has the RAID and the GIPN groups. The Gendarmerie also has armored and paratroops squadrons.

Both the Police and the Gendarmerie have riot control forces: the CRS for the Police, the gendarmerie mobile for the Gendarmerie (which are often mistaken for the former). They intervene throughout the country.

One justification for the maintenance of a military force handling matters of civilian police is that the military cannot unionize, contrary to civilian civil servants such as the Police, which may make management easier. The gendarmes found a workaround by forming associations of spouses of gendarmes.

 

[Infanteer]

Wes is right, and I don't see France rolling over into a Police State anytime soon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Gendarmerie

I think Italy may be the same with the Carabineri (sp?).

Each of those police agencies has a clearly defined jurisdiction with the clear aim of protecting the rights of the citizenry.   When you are dealing with an RCMP officer you are speaking to a police officer with potential and real jurisdiction in all those areas.  

For my rights, I would rather not see that extensive jurisdiction extended further.

The jurisdiction is within the Federal, Provincial, or Municipal government's hands - the RCMP is mandated to provide federal policing, while municipal and provincial services are contracted out if the relevent jurisdiction wishes to do so.

This shouldn't be an entirely huge thing - the military requires policing and it contracts the RCMP to do so.  The operational concerns you addressed can belong in the domain of a Provost Corps, where the M part of MP is emphasised.

I, frankly, have enough faith and respect for the RCMP to not hold any irrational fears of a police state because they are now to undertake enforcing law within the military (the same law that civilians are beholden to anyways).  Let the military side of the house cover the operational matters (PW's, discipline, rear area control and security) and the Police handle the Policing (criminal investigation, traffic and by-law enforcement, etc, etc).

 

[paracowboy]

The job of a civil police officer is a relatively "peaceful" one.   It can be dangerous work, but it in no way compares to the sort of commitment and responsibility required of a military police officer. 

you may want to re-word this. I find it insulting to LEOs. They make just as big, if not bigger, commitment to their duties as we in the military do. They put on a uniform every day, making themselves targets, every day. They are on Tour EVERY DAY. To insinuate that they do not have the same drive, motivation, and dedication we do is insulting. They are responsible for the safety of Canadians, and they see to it, daily. Sounds a lot like "commitment and responsibility" to me.

 

[Infanteer]

In response to GO!!!, I believe that the military police has to be under the jurisdiction of the military and the civil police should be under the jurisdiction of the civil authority.

The military doesn't fall into neat compartments like this - as mentioned above, CF members are beholden to the CCC and other laws of Canada - why does the military need to use resources to do this "in-house" when another very competent organization makes it it's raison d'ete.  Most QR&O topics are enforced (as they should be) by the Chain-of-Command, while Major military infractions usually lapse over into Criminal Code charges (IIRC).

As well, considering that cooperation by different government branches (what the Aussies have term "Whole-of-Government" operations) is become the norm with asymmetric, 4th generation threats, I see nothing inappropriate with this approach

 

[KevinB]

Ditto to Paracowboy.  LEO's are truly warriors in a never ending war.

I must admit I have less than a modium of respect of the MP's  countless offences go unpunished due to their incompetence.  I woudl rather see the RCMP take on the LE duties and have the MP's go back into the roles that Infanteer pointed out.

We could use them for Camp Secuit/Access Control duties too