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NCdt Lumber said:
Because if you don't have proper jurisdiction, then you may not have the proper authority to make arrests/lay charges, and that can lead to all sorts of problems, charges being voided, civil suits etc.
"MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles" and "Replace base MP with RCMP"
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Because if you don't have proper jurisdiction, then you may not have the proper authority to make arrests/lay charges, and that can lead to all sorts of problems, charges being voided, civil suits etc.
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dapaterson said:
Boy ! if I ever heard a statement from a person with a axe to grind, the above sure fits the bill. ( I wonder why ??)
Some how I get the impression that you wouldn't be satisfied with what ever sort of LE Agency was in place.
As for your unpopular 2 Cents, it isn't, its Unqualified.
Have a Nice Day and Buckle Up.
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I suppose I should know better than to post after a long irritating day, or at least to provide some context if I'm going to be particularly contrary...
My comments, rounded out, in reverse order...
As long as there is potential chain of command involvement in investigations there is potential chain of command interference. Not a good thing. In addition, the MP population is small enough ,with significant churn in the lower ranks, that building the requisite depth of competence for the requisite investigative skills is a problem, particularly since the military posts on a regular cycle - most civilian LEAs have long-serving officers engaged in sensitive and complex investigations, not the steady churn the military provides.
Some would argue that this could be avoided by extending tours at the NIS; I'd oppose that (and initiatives to extend tours in other occupations as well) as eroding the experiential pillar needed for professional development - a good military has a small nucleus of specialists, but most should be generalists within their trade.
I have never seen any adequate justification for all MPs to be credentialed peace officers. Domestic policing is not a military function, and it can be readily contracted out, freeing up some of the limited military PYs we have available to meet other military requirements. Vital point security? Yes, a valid role for the MP. Route marking? Another valid role (that modern MPs don't care to do). Care of PWs? Yet another fine task for MPs.
We have now an MP branch whose focus is almost exclusively on the policing aspect of their job. What's needed is a renewed emphasis on the combat service support aspect of their job.
Or, to put it in its most basic form:
Are they cops, or are they soldiers? They can't be both.
My comments, rounded out, in reverse order...
"Uniform" means just that - everyone the same. Different dress does breed divisions; if there is a desperate need for a garrison dress for MPs make it similar to extant CF uniforms - to remind both the CF population at large and the MPs that they are all part of the same team.
As long as there is potential chain of command involvement in investigations there is potential chain of command interference. Not a good thing. In addition, the MP population is small enough ,with significant churn in the lower ranks, that building the requisite depth of competence for the requisite investigative skills is a problem, particularly since the military posts on a regular cycle - most civilian LEAs have long-serving officers engaged in sensitive and complex investigations, not the steady churn the military provides.
Some would argue that this could be avoided by extending tours at the NIS; I'd oppose that (and initiatives to extend tours in other occupations as well) as eroding the experiential pillar needed for professional development - a good military has a small nucleus of specialists, but most should be generalists within their trade.
I have never seen any adequate justification for all MPs to be credentialed peace officers. Domestic policing is not a military function, and it can be readily contracted out, freeing up some of the limited military PYs we have available to meet other military requirements. Vital point security? Yes, a valid role for the MP. Route marking? Another valid role (that modern MPs don't care to do). Care of PWs? Yet another fine task for MPs.
We have now an MP branch whose focus is almost exclusively on the policing aspect of their job. What's needed is a renewed emphasis on the combat service support aspect of their job.
Or, to put it in its most basic form:
Are they cops, or are they soldiers? They can't be both.
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dapaterson said:
I can't recall if it was my PL commander or PL 2ic on BOTP this summer, but whichever it was, they outlined to me what they perceived as a growing issue with MPs forgetting that they are soldiers. He said that the CF has been enrolling new recruits as MPs who have had previous experience in law enforcement, and that this gave them a greater attitude of "I'm the law" you do what I say. Apparently on one occasion, a couple MPs actually walked right into the CFLRS CO's office without showing proper respects, to have a chat with the LCol. He reminded me that, of course, this isn't all MPs, but that it seemed to be a growing trend, at least amongst those he worked around.
I have to agree with dapaterson that, if indeed MPs are having an issue realizing that they are infact soldiers first, then a similar uniform to the rest of the CF may be an reasonable solution. I mean, isn't the red berret a dead enough give away?
lawandorder
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Well since the RCMP are hard up for members themselves I doubt they'd be able to provide the needed members for the job. If the RCMP ran the show you probably wouldn't see 2-3 MPs on patrol per shift, but 2-3 MP's per det period.
As for the credentials, its rather hard to lay criminal charges on the Criminal Code of Canada if you're not a credited Peace Officer.
The black uniforms help distinguish the MP's as POLICE. While MP's are on patrol that's very much what they are, POLICE. It aids people on the base to easily pick, aids civilians who may be on base to distinguish the police from everyone else and can aids in allowing civilian police agencies to relate to the MPs.
As to say MPs can't be soldiers and Cops i'd disagree. If by Soldiering you mean the "field" side of the trade the people I have worked with know their stuff. The "Cop" MP's I have worked with also seem to know their stuff. MP's can be both. Yes the branch is having some issues with that but that is going to be changing fairly soon.
So the MP's can Police the PMQ's then switch their hat for a Helmet and be a soldier ready to "route sign" as some people seem to believe is the more appropriate task for them to do.
As for the credentials, its rather hard to lay criminal charges on the Criminal Code of Canada if you're not a credited Peace Officer.
The black uniforms help distinguish the MP's as POLICE. While MP's are on patrol that's very much what they are, POLICE. It aids people on the base to easily pick, aids civilians who may be on base to distinguish the police from everyone else and can aids in allowing civilian police agencies to relate to the MPs.
As to say MPs can't be soldiers and Cops i'd disagree. If by Soldiering you mean the "field" side of the trade the people I have worked with know their stuff. The "Cop" MP's I have worked with also seem to know their stuff. MP's can be both. Yes the branch is having some issues with that but that is going to be changing fairly soon.
So the MP's can Police the PMQ's then switch their hat for a Helmet and be a soldier ready to "route sign" as some people seem to believe is the more appropriate task for them to do.
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Law & Order said:So the MP's can Police the PMQ's then switch their hat for a Helmet and be a soldier ready to "route sign" as some people seem to believe is the more appropriate task for them to do.
When was the last time you saw the MPs, with a dog house on their vehicle, stapling the suits of cards on phone poles in Ontario? I haven't seen a route sign for about five or six years. Matter of fact, it was about the time they got all those specialized Milcot trucks. Now everything is free runner or Unit designated packets and routes.
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recceguy said:
I have seen route markers recently (last couple of months), can't recall exactly were but it was somewhere in York/Peel Region. I have actually seen quite a few in the last 5 or 6 years, but granted it wasn't until maybe 3-4 years ago, I learned what the heck those playing card symbols I randomly saw on the road were.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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recceguy said:
Well, I have worked with them in the Regt, and have done the Route Signing for some major moves. It is still done. Now, there is also the fact that not only do they do the Route Signing, but they are also SUPPOSED to follow up behind the last packet and remove all those signs. It makes for a very long day, if you are doing both the Signing and Removing along a route.
lawandorder
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I was trying to be sarcastic, it was in reference to a previous post. But route signing, right now, is done for admin routes on base, and domestic road moves, from my understanding anyways.
But route signing, right now, is done for admin routes on base, and domestic road moves, from my understanding anyways.
QV
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recceguy said:
Yup, and hopefully never again. Route signing is carried over from post WWII Germany as a way of quickly funnelling troops to the front in the event of a Soviet invasion. It is not exactly practical in the new war on terror. As for local admin moves back in Canada? ... a gps or a map comes to mind ...
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recceguy said:
We see them on the roads around Owen Sound and Meaford all the time. More frequently in the summer.
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recceguy said:
Road move to ARCON in 2005. We were following club route if I remember right, and the service batallion/infantry were following maple leaf route. The MPs were waiting in Gagetown to wave us in through a back gate as well.
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dapaterson said:
Just to jump in here late on this issue. The reason why the Occupational Patrol Dress came out for the MP's is that quite simply, so civilians could identify the MP's from the rest of the bunch. Any switched on troop can see a beret with the thunderbird on it and know that he/she's an MP, but when your all in relish wearing different modes of headress, the average civy cant make out who's who in the jungle.
As bases are open and the military generally has more civilians working on base, there was a need to establish a way to indentify MP's to the average civilian. The uniforms provide said civilians with an ability to "recognize" the MP's....hence the OPD.
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How about a brassard that says "Military Police" on their arm? Seems quite straightforward to me. Cheaper, too...
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and from a distance??...............whats more distinguishable, a brassard in your arm or an actual uniform that is pretty much standard across the country?
I went from wearing a brassard on my shoulder to wearing the OPD. Believe me, the public notices the uniform, not an armband. Armbands dont work, period. For the military personal I would agree the armband is sufficient, but the public needs more. Like it or not my friends, OPD is here to stay. I've had people ask me where CFB Esquimalt is when we're standing right in front of the main gate beside the base sign. I've also been standing in downtown Toronto and have been asked where the CN tower is.
I went from wearing a brassard on my shoulder to wearing the OPD. Believe me, the public notices the uniform, not an armband. Armbands dont work, period. For the military personal I would agree the armband is sufficient, but the public needs more. Like it or not my friends, OPD is here to stay. I've had people ask me where CFB Esquimalt is when we're standing right in front of the main gate beside the base sign. I've also been standing in downtown Toronto and have been asked where the CN tower is.
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PLeased though I am that the public now feel free to ask MPs for directions, I'd still much rather seem them as an integral part of the Combat Service Support funcion, vice providing domestic policing that distracts and detracts from their fulfilling their miltiary role.
We've already got ample domestic police forces, be they national (RCMP), provincial (OPP and SQ) or municipal. Having a wannabe civvy cop branch in the CF does nothing for military effectiveness. The MP branch today claims it is stressed to meet the supprot to operations mandate. Great. That's the #1 role for the military. So put the OPD on a hanger, slide back into the CADPAT, and remember what the M in MP stands for.
Otherwise you're serving no military function. So we can stand down the branch, and re-invest the PYs into something that can be used to support operations.
We've already got ample domestic police forces, be they national (RCMP), provincial (OPP and SQ) or municipal. Having a wannabe civvy cop branch in the CF does nothing for military effectiveness. The MP branch today claims it is stressed to meet the supprot to operations mandate. Great. That's the #1 role for the military. So put the OPD on a hanger, slide back into the CADPAT, and remember what the M in MP stands for.
Otherwise you're serving no military function. So we can stand down the branch, and re-invest the PYs into something that can be used to support operations.
QV
Army.ca Veteran
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dapaterson said:
Do you think that all those police services the RCMP or muni services provide to their communities are free? What makes you think that it would be cheaper to contract it out?
dapaterson said:
Well, someone has to do it. Why don't we just get rid of all those wannabe doctors and wannabe lawyers and wannabe pilots while we are at it....
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Policing the PMQs is not "military policing services". It's coffee and donuts policing - still important, but lacks the M nexus that MP operations should entail.
We have a finite authorised ceiling for military personnel. If we create a vast tail to fulfil functions that we need not perform, that we can easily acquire through other means, we are wasting those PYs.
I'm not 100% down on MPs - I think the recent initiatives to improve close protection are long overdue. And the rising entry standards are having a positive impact overall on the quality of MPs and MPOs, and their perception among others.
I'm just concerned we're spelling the branch name mP, where we should be spelling it MP.
We have a finite authorised ceiling for military personnel. If we create a vast tail to fulfil functions that we need not perform, that we can easily acquire through other means, we are wasting those PYs.
I'm not 100% down on MPs - I think the recent initiatives to improve close protection are long overdue. And the rising entry standards are having a positive impact overall on the quality of MPs and MPOs, and their perception among others.
I'm just concerned we're spelling the branch name mP, where we should be spelling it MP.
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