Medak Pocket (info, documentaries, etc. - merged)

[galvanizer]

galvanizer - without facts or substantiation, your comments are simply more rhetoric. You've offered your point, and made your opinion known. You knew this discussion would be inflammatory, and deliberately posting inflammatory comments is against the conduct guidelines. I see no thoughtful debate here. If that's not going to happen, then move along and rant on someone else's forum.

Army.ca Staff

I diodn't see anyone else providing any evidences that prove Canadian story. If saying the truth that is in conflict wiith your fact I apologise 'cause I tougt that this is democracy.

 

[Mineguy]

Edited to get to the point.

Well, Im not going to argue any more but there was definitly a "fight!"....now who pushed who or who didnt is a point to argue on both sides which is the norm I guess!.....does the evidence taken from the UN side matchup with the version of events from the croatian side we could go on forever!

You know its just like Miroslav Skoro sings "....The truth is a deep ocean"......im sure that goes for all sides and parties. So im sure facts will all come out whats true and whats not someday and somewhere!

With personal respect to you and UN veterans And again thank you for your work at the maslenica op and showing hrvatska can "successfully do somthing" for later operations to the world.

 

[galvanizer]

I've joined after Maslenica and before Medak. As I said in May 1993 and Maslenica was done from 6. to 27. January that year.
maslenica was another example of shameful actions of UN(politics)
Before that action Croatia was cut in half and UN were responsible for securing normal traffic and funcion of south Croatia. But again they did nothing. Our forces took initiative  and started the action. HV secured Novsko zdrilo and pushed Serbs away from Zadar suburbs.
Action was stopped by UN which treatend Croatia with economic sanctions. after that our forces were in defencive because action was stooped  few miles from ideal defencive positions which resulted in some 120 Croat soldiers killed. But we stood our ground and secured normal traffic between Dalmatia and north Croatia.

And believe me there was no fire clash only verbal after action was over. And that was even shown in CBC documentary.

 

[muskrat89]

I diodn't see anyone else providing any evidences that prove Canadian story

That's because, until you came along - the thread was a review about a book. Several posters have commented on the books accuracy, based on their own experiences.

I tougt that this is democracy.

No, this is a private website. The forum is administered per the wishes of the owner.

 

[combat_medic]

We're here to defend democracy, not practice it.

Galvanizer, if you continue this rhetoric, you will be banned. Last warning.

 

[Franko]

Well well.....another troll I see.

Listen bub....he was there plain and simple. I know a few who were there that are currently serving here in A stan who can back up his story.

You have your POV on this topic....he lived it. Period.

You're on the ramp with no chute.....it's up to you.

Regards

 

[galvanizer]

I see none of you has answerd 2 simple questions:
1. Was your job to remove serbian artilery that sheelled Gospic?
2.Did you do it?


For defending democracy: What democracy were you "defending" there???

Now you can ban me!

Dovidjenja!

 

[George Wallace]

No real need to ban you.  No real reason to answer your question either, as this is not a Thread for 'Historical Discussion' but a Thread on "BOOK REVIEWS". 

Perhaps you'd like to go to the threads on Military History or Foreign Militaries to start a Topic on this subject?

 

[muskrat89]

Here you go:

From http://www.cda-cdai.ca/library/medakpocket2.htm

In mid-September 1993 United Nations Protection Force (UNPROFOR) soldiers from 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry (2PPCLI) advanced into the disputed Medak Pocket in southern Croatian with orders to implement the latest cease-fire between Croatian Army troops and Serb irregular forces. 2PPCLI were reinforced with two mechanized companies of French troops.  The Canadians, well schooled in the delicate art of “peacekeeping”, discovered their negotiation skills and strict impartiality were not immediately required the Medak Pocket.  Instead they found themselves calling upon their primary war-fighting skills when Croatian Army units opened fire with machine-guns, mortars and artillery in an effort to stop the Canadian advance.   To complete their assigned mission the Patricia’s were required to threaten the use of, and ultimately use, deadly force against Croatian units.  However, the true test of military professionalism and discipline came after the smoke cleared, the Croatians backed down and the Canadians immediately reverted to their role as impartial peacekeepers in their dealings with individuals who only moments before had attempted to kill them.

           Resolute Canadian and French action came at a time when the UN reputation in Croatia was at a low ebb due to repeated failures to secure the infamous United Nations Protected Areas (UNPA’s).  Colonel George Oehring, commander of UNPROFOR Sector South, claimed the Princess Patrcia’s “won for the whole mission a credibility and respect that will be long remembered by the opposing parties and much facilitate our future efforts here.”  For their efforts, 2PPCLI was awarded a United Nations Force Commander’s Commendation from French General Cot, the first of its kind of one of only three awarded in UNPROFOR’s history.    

           Of course, the Canadians originally went to the Former Republic of Yugoslavia to protect a fragile truce, not to impose peace on warring factions locked in a bloody civil war.  Until the early 1990's Yugoslavia was a federation of consisting of six republics including Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Macedonia, all quite similar in language, culture and custom. Despite the presence of ultra-nationalist movements in each republic, the Yugoslav federation existed harmoniously earning international acclaim and the privilege of hosting the world at the 1984 Winter Olympics.

           The collapse of centralized communist authority in Yugoslavia during the late 1980's brought nationalists in each republic into mainstream politics.  In Serbia, Slobodan Milosevic and in Croatia Franjo Tudjman, rose to power by destroying the carefully constructed Yugoslav identity in favour of a new nationhood based on blood and religion. In the process,            Serbia, most powerful of the six republics, attempted to take control over the crumbling federation. This did not appeal to growing nationalist movements in Croatia and Slovenia resulting in declarations of independence in 1991, followed closely by a similar move in Bosnia. Croatia and Bosnia contained large numbers of ethnic Serbs, hostile to the federal breakup. Croatian and Bosnian Serbs established paramilitary forces to resist their respective new governments leading to two distinctly separate civil wars.

           During the opening months of these wars, the Yugoslav National Army (JNA), on orders from Belgrade, openly intervened to prevent the breakup of the federation. JNA involvement usually meant assisting Serb militias in Croatia and Bosnia. However, the regular army was a mirror of the old federation and thus suffered from the same problems of divided loyalties. Non-Serb officers and senior NCO's left the JNA to join the new national armies of their home republics.  This exodus of non-Serbs destroyed cohesion in the JNA, thus eliminating the only modern  professional military force in Yugoslavia. With no army left to implement its goals and an economy on the verge of collapse, Serbia gradually withdrew from conflicts in Croatia and Bosnia, leaving Serb minorities there to fend for themselves against the newly created Bosnian and Croatian armies. Serb militias acquired weapons, vehicles, and even volunteers from the JNA as it withdrew, while newly created Croatian and Bosnian forces received equipment from outside sources like Germany and the United States. However, equipment alone does not build an army. It would take years before the various militias and armed gangs would coalesce into professional military forces.  

           For most of the period between 1992-95, the Yugoslav wars of succession were waged by amateurs. When the JNA was removed from the equation, they took with them the normal codes of conduct held by modern professional military officers.  Rival militias fired weapons in the vicinity of opposing troops, more often than not, intent on killing civilians. The result was to create a pattern of combat where military casualties were few. The new armies knew how to kill, but not how to wage war against other soldiers properly. Unprotected civilians were a different matter.  And so, the objective in these wars was not to defeat the opponent’s combat power but to consolidate new ethnic nation-states by killing or driving out those who did not fit.  

           The United Nations Protection Force (UNPROFOR) entered this storm in 1992, first in Croatia and later in Bosnia. In Croatia, the UN brokered a cease-fire between the new Croatian government in Zagreb and minority Serbs who sought independence from the new state. The peace agreement included establishment of a UN patrolled buffer zone in under Chapter VI of the UN Charter. Both parties welcomed the cease fire, when in fact it held, as an opportunity to build their military capabilities until such time as victory could be assured.  This was the environment faced by Canadian soldiers making up UNPROFOR’s Canadian Battalion Number 1 in 1993.

The Patricia’s vigorously enforced weapons bans in their area of operations, seizing contra-band arms of all types from both warring factions.  Colonel Calvin also, on his own initiative, developed a procedure to deter Croat and Serb patrolling and raiding within the Protected Area.  Previously, belligerent soldiers detained by the UN after engaging in such activity would be returned to their own authorities for punishment.  Calvin began releasing detainee’s to the opposing forces with UN civilian police keeping a close eye to ensure punishment was not ‘terminal’.

There's lots more there too, if you care to read it. I'm sure it is all lies though.

Anyway - per George, if you'd like to continue this in a civil manner, please feel free to start another thread in a suitable forum. I'll lock this for now. If someone wants to re-open and discuss the book, let a Mod know.

 

[muskrat89]

OK - I was PMd with a request to re-open this. Since it was so far off of the original topic, I split it at the point where galvanizer piped up.

Please keep things civil. I'll unlock the original thread as well.

Thanks.

 

[muskrat89]

A separate topic regarding the actions at Medak has been opened in the Canadian Army forum. Please limit comments in this thread to the book review. Thanks.

 

[ZipperHead]

I just finished reading the book (a Xmas present from the wife). I thought it was pretty decent, and even read of a few people that I know from 2PPCLI and some Reserves that I hadn't known were in Medak (they never mentioned it, I never asked).

I was talking with a guy who was there (a Reservist at the time), and he said, like most books, there were some factual errors. But on the whole, he seemed to be OK with it. I was aware of the basic events of Medak Pocket, but I didn't know nearly as much as I had initially thought (due to the DND black-out of events, and people not getting their story out). It is a sad commentary on the state of the CF at the time (and the government mostly) that this was swept under the carpet. Not giving the soldiers that were there their due (and vindicating them for the job well done, rather than investigating people on some small transgressions) was a damn shame. It mentioned in the book that there was a break in the normal military tradition of accepting responsibility at the highest level (i.e not passing the buck, and blaming it on subordinates) in regards to the Somalia scandal, and it obviously happened with this as well. After living through that era, and witnessing the absolute shame of senior officers (and senior Sr NCO's) standing by silently as only the lower ranks were punished, in the interest of themselves (i.e. not damaging their own careers) left a bad taste in the mouths of every soldier that I know. I would say that time frame was the lowest that the military has ever been, and it has been rough sledding to get the military out of that particular abyss.

I have seen a big change in the attitudes of officers and NCO's in regards to looking after their soldiers. Sure, there are still careerists and shit-pumps at the top, but I think that one day (soon) they will get their due (if there is any justice). If a person is more concerned about the next rank level, and not about the welfare of their soldiers (not being willing to take a stand on behalf of their soldiers for fear of career implications), they have no right to be a leader. Unfortunately there were too many examples of this happening in this period, so it became the norm.

I'm not particularly poetic, but a Bruce Cockburn lyric might sum up this dark period in the CF's history: "Got to kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight". Tell the soldier's stories, and let them be proud of what they did, not the shame that the government wanted them to feel.

Al

 

[noneck]

I was in the Pocket prior to the attack by the 9th Lika Wolves Bde. On the night the Croat preparatory shelling began I was occupying an OP above Sveti Rok overlooking the rail and road junction between Medak and Gracac. Prior to this by about a few weeks my Section Op'd a Serb artillery Battery up by the Peruca Dam.

So during this whole period I didn't see Serb Arty, fire one round anywhere towards HV Forces or Croat occupied towns. I did observe a minor tank engagement up by the Peruca Dam and numerous instances of patrols bumping each other but that was it.

After the initial onslaught into the Pocket it was a free for all, RSK aircraft from either Udbina or Bosnia did attack HV ground forces in the Pocket on numerous occasions and rockets were fired from Bihac into Zagreb. I also witnessed a Super Galeb attack targets as well as a HIP pop up and fire ATGM's and HV armoured forces.

Basically what I am attempting to put forward is that there was no Serb provocation that I observed prior to the HV preparatory fire.

It is obvious from the comments on the other post prior to it being split that there are still some folks in Croatia that are either embarrassed/ashamed of what occurred in the region by their forces. So much so , that 13 years later they are still trying to convince people that it didn't happen.....then again there are still Holocaust deniers claiming that it didn't happen either!

Cheers
Noneck

 

[Mark Antony]

Right on noneck!

The Pocket is just the the last example in my 6 months of witnessing hatred, death and shameful acts by both Serb and Croat.  While the Serbs certainly have nothing to be proud of, I often thought that the Croats tried to play the "poor me" card so much to the press (much like galvanizer), while committing the same atrocities, that I began to take a great dislike to that side (at least more than the Serb side).

That aside, both Serbs and Croats should be ashamed of this history and should be trying to wipe it out through educating their people about it rather than trying to deny it.  It might prevent it from happening again.  I'd like to hear from anyone of Croat or Serb descent that might be able to enlighten me about whether this education may be happening.

...or did they learn nothing?

 

[derael]

Galvanizer kinda reminds me of the Iraqi information minister...

 

[HollywoodHitman]

Well done Noneck. One of the reasons we install peacekeepers as force monitors is so that history can be viewed and reported as it happened. Everyone on the ground watching what happens will have a different vantage point and where the information is assembled, a more clear picture of what happend comes out.

Cheers

 

[S McKee]

Hey galvanizer you must be familiar with the great Croat military victory at the villiage of Stupni Do....

 

[blueboy]

Thanks for the enlightenment noneck. It's hard for some to accept the truth when they view it like an ostrich with their head in the sand.

 

[pbi]

Galvanizer is sadly very typical of the numerous Croat "ethnic cleansing" deniers I have met since I served in Sector South with CANBAT in 04 (MCpl Isfeld was killed in my company area). I have argued with them on a number of occasions since then. One thing I noted about the Croats, both in the homeland and the expat organizations here in Canada, was their capacity for denial and self-delusion about what had been done in ther name by the HVO and the Special Police. (Similar perhaps to some in the German population in the post WWII years.) They have swallowed their own information operation, whole.

Nobody (not least the Canadians) denies the stupid, hideous and unrepentant behaviour of the Serbs in many situations in FRY. What people like Galvanizer hope is that we will all be so busy yelling about Sarajevo, Srebenica and Mostar that we will forget about Medak and the atrocities during AKTION GROM in 1995. To a great exent they have been successful, and they get very upset when "liars" like us bring up a different version than what Zagreb approves.

IMHO the healthiest thing for Croatia to do is to follow Germany's post-war example and admit to the fact that war, especially war driven by nationalist and ethnic furies, can produce horrible results. The recent actions of  the Croat governmen in indicting people such as Gen Gotovina and others will go some way towards this, but there needs to be a national effort. Only then can  Croatia rightfully lay claim to the status it so desperately wanted in 1993: to be a civilized part of the modern Europe, not a throwback Balkan backwater with a murderous history  in the service of the Austro-Hungarians or the Axis, or of their own uncontrolled nationalist feelings.

Cheers

 

[Strike]

I just picked up the book at the Ottawa airport on my way to the UK and could not put it down.  I just finished it today as I had another day of leave left to burn (good thing too, 'cause I have a cold).  Wow.  I only knew a little about Medak.  There was a guy a couple of years below me at RMC who had been there.  He didn't talk about it at all, but we all knew where the decoration came from.  The description of him in the book was bang on. 

All in all, I found the book very well written.  I am not much of a history buff, but got through the historical aspects of the Balkans very quickly.  I found that Off seemed to write for the average Canadian, explaining things well, but not going into so much detail that it would scare off anyone who has no knowledge of the military.  I would certainly recommend this book, and plan on passing it on to my father.  I suspect my mother will get a little miffed at me, as he has a habit of staying up all night when he has a good book.