Medak Pocket (info, documentaries, etc. - merged)

[Cannonfodder]

Just stumbled upon this board .I've been out of the army for 8 years and served 2 tours in Croatia one with C company 1 PPCLI and the other with 9 Platoon C Company 2 PPCLI. I have not read the book but I am going to pick it up tomorrow at Chapters.Our Platoon House was in Medak and recieved heavy shelling.Basically the Serb land position resembled two fingers shaped like a v on a map with medak at the base of the v.
  On the night of Sept 8th I watched with Adrian Tomson  the spectacular shelling of the villages of the left finger  in the distance.By 5 when i was awoken for my security picket things were very quiet I finished my shift  awoke Tranelus a Lithuanian giant for his shift.I crawled into my sleeping bag and started to go to sleep when I heard a shell cut through the air followed by the impact.Immediatley  we were all awake trying to get dressed and grab our rifles .Adrian had immediatley jumped of his cot and ran to one of the firing ports with his C9 in the buff.We were all crowded in the front room when the second barrage came.

  It is hard to explain the feelings that go through your mind ,your pulse races after the impact misses you start to calm down then you hear the report in the distance your heart races.Basically your body is getting pulses of adrenelin it really starts to wear on you after a short period of time.I was thinking what the f*$k am I doing here only 4 weeks till we go home and this crap has to start.
  Our houses location was surrounded by the serb brigade hq to our north, an OP to our south and a train station to our east.It was no wonder we were getting a  crap kicking.Mr Green reported the drama to our Company Hq and we were given a patronizing reponse by our OPS OfficerXXXXXXXXXXXXX pound for pound one of the most aragant inept officers I have ever had the displeasure of working for] that it was normal activity for this area.Sorry for the rant I havent talked about this for awhile  and sometimes one gets angry when regressing about past events.


(Edited by Moderator, insulting identification of serving pers removed.)

 

[Mineguy]

"Lee Windsorsarticle is good but the part about "The bodies recovered included those of two young women found in a basement. They had apparently been tied up, shot and then doused with gasoline and burned." is part of the problem that finds it way into MEDAK.
When we found these bodies the MO said it looked like a mother and daughter but no one was sure, according to UN documents these to women were in their 60's.
Every time I hear the story of the operation these two women get younger and younger, the last time I heard it they were 14. I've never understood why this is done.
There was no way except by an autopsy to find out how old these women were when we were there they were burnt beyond any form of recognition"

I agree these reports are flawed and some are downright inaccurate. Having half a croatian family myself I have tried to see this from all angles. I have a freind who was listed on these UN "perpetrators of crimes documents" that can be found online on one of these UN docs listed along with another international names supposedly involved with medak. These two were defintily nowhere near the area despite the statements of these docs -with one not even IN the balkans geographical region for 1.5 years at that point! So these Un docs are not completely accurate, however Much of the evidence gathered by the RCMP and the CF has been thankfully  very accurate to provide evidence which will help the hague bring justice where its due and despite this many people abroad seem to will keep genralizing about croatians and the other two sides and who was more evil etc etc- I can say every  croatian  i have met who really knows about this action agrees that these people commiting crimes  as listed above with the two murders mentioned did a very evil and unessecary thing over and above their mission of the day. I dont think these books will ever be 100%accurate and most people never will have the oppurtunity to experience that from outside the box without being on one or the other side in opinion which is fair. This misinterpretation is most likley because alot of evidence came from a sole Serbian source base which is obvious when you read them as they were the victims.And There will be for sure more people from the croatian press to write all sorts of things about what they belive -this which routinly ive seen peope here take offence to which is fair given their experiences. There are a few basic things which I havent seen many cdn soldiers or books at all  view without bias or at least if they do i have never heard or read it. Croatia at this time in 1993 was a recgognized country in the world not a breakup undefined state although all of this was seen as one big civil war ( and is interpreted as such) and this land was therefore "taken-occupied" in direct contravention of international law by krajina rebel serbs who had been offered peaceful integration into croatia several times since 1991. The operation in medak and its sole purpose was not ethinc cleansing and destruction of the towns (although this is what happened in excess to the mission) when these guys got out of hand with personal vengence. The purpose of the operation was to silence the big guns which had pounded Gospic and area since 1991 so to speak round the clock like in sarajevo and caused much damage and suffering to civilians. When the gospic bde was allowed to go in first this is why this balkans tit for tat retalition took place. These types of crimes do not go unnoticed as There have been around 1000 plus war crimes trails within croatia since the war for example with no less than 728 guilty convictions! So theres a whole new world of another half of this story and real people to describe it in a diffrent light if you have the pleasure to hear it thats not in these books.

 

[Timmy!]

I am in middle of reading the book when I have time...as far as I got around page 140 something... it has been good read. Going on how the Former Yugo got into this spot... and who was what and where. I can't wait to finsh the book.  ;D

 

[Timmy!]

Okay... done the book... sorry to bump this.... but it was one hell of a good book. I enjoy each page I read...

 

[Cannonfodder]

  Fairly interesting book brought back a lot of memories good and bad . Showed decisively that there were no good guys in the FRY . But what makes me laugh is that the whole lot  Serbs ,Croats and Muslims are all the decendants of Turkish invaders . Kind of like the Beverly Hillbillys  with AK 47s and T 54 - 55s , instead of Jeb it was  Milos .

 

[3rd Herd]

Cannon: Eastern European History Crse Notes

1)Like the Croats, the Serbs are believed to be a purely Slavic people who originated in the Ukraine.

2)Most of the Muslim Slavs and Albanians converted to Islam in the early stages of Ottoman occupation to gain the higher social status that Ottoman policy afforded to converts. Seems like a good idea to me

3)Hillbillynoun) disparaging term for an unsophisticated person.

The Last Laugh

 

[gnplummer421]

Greetings,

I just finished reading "The ghosts of medak pocket". I know very little about this part of the Balkan conflict. Are there any members out there who can share some experiences from that mission?

Bob

 

[blueboy]

You might want to ask "noneck" about that little piece of CDN history....I believe he was there.

 

[gnplummer421]

I finished reading this book and to be honest, I had no idea that was happening in the Balkans. I left Germany in 1991, and I must have missed the news about it, but then the book did state that The government wanted to keep things quiet because of the Somali situation. I wonder about all the guys that scattered after the mission. I know that it is a sensitive issue to ask someone who was there to talk about it, but I do want to know whether the military and/or the Government is taking care of any emotional/social or phychological problems some of these soldiers might be experiencing.

Thoughts/comments?

Gnplummer421

 

[Mineguy]

"A quick scan of Lee Windsor's article in the Army Doctrine and Training Bulletin states that 16 Croatian KIA were found.   How many killed and wounded were removed is another matter (I forget what the Croatian government gave as figures)."

Ill get the answer on that for you when i can from a medak veteran of 9th bde (neighbor)! I just need to think of "how" and "when" to ask that politley.....Wait out!



I always laugh at these people who say where everybody is from over here,History is my hobby and im still amazed from what i hear from historian sover here in my research.  The facts were of what happened in the balkans through history( which you have to realize were purposly tailored by  who was the ruling victor of the period remains now taken as fact in books...post 1945 yugo being a prime example), and the authors of these one sided opinions on what went on over here in the war and who was bad and who wasnt. The west is very much just as guilty killing many people as well with bad policey and late decisons! ....This place is and always will be crazy and full of misinformation so you really have no clear picture of whats going on! ???


I am living in croatia and Ive been right into the DNA origin of croats just out of interest.There have been some pretty extenisve studies done that show why on the genetic level everybody is who they are after all the mixing. When you get into it that far you see after the results are shown that croatians are most likley from the carpathian mountains area bordering ukriane as was said. The serbs are another slavic tribe who showed up later and gradually came down into these parts and started claiming this and that.There were some theories which said croats were from iran and afghanistan and there is even a pure DNA blood line in dalmatia on some islands which is isolated back to pre historic times, but this has no relation to the mainland croats.Some areas have and remain pure croat dna, nothing to do with being decednats of turkish invaders.Some areas were invaded and DNA is mixed, some remain pure to this day. The ottoman empire advance was thankfully stopped around sisak, made it into bosnia and swung around the top in hungary getting close to vienna but were stopped by croats. In a sense this stopping them saved the rest of europe and you very guys reading this a few hundred years down the road. Thus you have people in Bosnia today who are muslim because they converted under duress, mixed serbs croats and muslims included. Then you have pockets like hercegovina which i must add in this war was protected by a Canadian croat general former PPCLI and FFL . Croatia really once existed all the way into present day serbia long before the kingdom of yugoslavia or ndh propaganda said that to gather support ( this is where you get muslims who see themselves as muslim croats) and these lands were gradulally lost to serbs and muslims which addedd all the pockets you see today..and added some of the tensions you see today!

On another side note our veterans here are really treated like crap and they have absolutley no support system like in canada.No benefits and if they get them its squat money and thats if it even shows up!  We loose around 100 a month to suicide! In this video from thompson who is married to a canadian girl non croat -it reaches out to people to take care of their buddies after all the battle they been through together.I guess its no diffrent anywhere after!

http://media.putfile.com/Thompson-Prijatelji

http://www.durham.net/facts/crogen/newsltr9.html

 

[galvanizer]

When I read all these comments about Medak situation makes me laugh. This story is pure lie.
I'm from Gospic so these "soldiers" who claim they were there should know about it. In 1992. UN peacekeepers arrived in Croatia. UNPA were created and one of duties of peace keepers was to move all heavy weapons from certain places. One of those was Medak from which Gospic was shelled day nad night. Canadians never did their job. So Cro forces after  a year has passed and Canadins did nothing entered the place and leveled it and returned to starting position.  No clash with Canadian force happend. There were no Croats wounded or killed in this "clash" . If it really happend what ammo were you using? snowballs?This clash is pure Canadian sci-fi story to cover 2 things.

1. That they didn't do their job and removed Serbian artillery which from their arrival to this action from this position fired some 3000 grenades.

2. That Croat retaliation was was cause by reason no.1

The real truth is that nothing happend and there is nothing to be proud of.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Dobar Dan and Thank you for the commentary.

I am sure we are now all aware of what really happened, due to your enlightenment.  Those of us that served in your beloved country, feel honored in being called liars.  Whether it was in the medak or elsewhere. Please Okrenite se and go back to the peaceful home.

And, take you flights of fancy elsewhere...As we will not take the abuse, after we laid down our lives to offer peace for yours....

dileas

tess

 

[eyre]

When I read all these comments about Medak situation makes me laugh. This story is pure lie.

Galvanizer, I find denial amongst your countrymen very common when it comes to your embracing of ethnic war.  You are not the first to deny these atrocities happened. 

My platoon was the first into the village of Licki Citluk, perhaps the largest village in the Medak pocket, and saw first-hand the after-effects of what your proud soldiers did.  In fact, they were still there and laughing when we arrived as the village burned around us.  The book has the framework of the story correct.  Your soldiers had fire returned upon them and were killed.  I am currently serving with some that did the killing.

Several years ago, while serving in Bosnia, I had a good conversation with one of your military psychologists regarding combat stress.  Without prompting he specifically mentioned the problems your soldiers were having after this Medak operation.  Dave Grossman, in On Killing, discusses the psychological trauma of committing atrocities.  Here it is manifest.

Canadians never did their job. So Cro forces after  a year has passed and Canadins did nothing

We only arrived in Sector South in Jul 93, six to eight weeks before the Medak operation began.

The real truth is that nothing happend and there is nothing to be proud of.

Three years ago I served with a Croat officer while we were both studying in the US.  At first he denied your country's embrace of ethnic cleansing.  Then, after several months, and many beer, denial turned to admission.  You and your country must get over its dark past, because if you don't, you will never truly connect with globalized civilization.  Get over the past, admit your historical faults, and drive on.

 

[galvanizer]

Where did I say Medacki dzep didn't happend??? I precisely said that Canadian clash with Croat soldiers is a pure lie. And that can be seen in yours CBC documentary.  The biggest lie is yours claim that we accused you for wounding or killing 27 Croat soldiers.

You have nothing to be proud of and you know it.

Yes you arrived six weeks before but UN generaly arrived 1.5 years before.

Now a question:
Was your job to remove serbs artilery??? Did you do it???

Now you can continue twisting the truth and my statments.

 

[galvanizer]

Dobar Dan and Thank you for the commentary.

I am sure we are now all aware of what really happened, due to your enlightenment.  Those of us that served in your beloved country, feel honored in being called liars.  Whether it was in the medak or elsewhere. Please Okrenite se and go back to the peaceful home.

And, take you flights of fancy elsewhere...As we will not take the abuse, after we laid down our lives to offer peace for yours....

dileas

tess

You laid your lives???

Hwo was killed or wounded???

 

[Mineguy]

Galvanizer,

The Domobrans liberated these territories which was their right and within the law to do so which some people find hard to accept. BUT this was not always done in the opinion of the outside world in the most legal way and as we know on the other hand croatia never got a fair shake from day one as it was. Croatia had to defend itself and take back what was theirs and im sure other countries pointing fingers at croatian for defending their home and soverignty have also done in past wars but nobody questions these people now on their past. As we both know it wasnt  a proffessional style army and there were some things going on which werent right and the retaliation that goes on around here for centuries. Its the law of the wild in our parts, it might not be right but we seem to see it continue and people dont get any smarter. Some body from Velebita (gospic) like you which is a hard and tough proud people would know that more then anyone else! Theres no doubt in the mind of any croatians I know even those who were there in medak in 9 bde that this happened.

Its no "story" , it really happened and there was a clash. We have to accept and realize that it was a dirty war, not  a normal one,  which was obvious and people who got out of hand need to be brought to justice or answer to prove themselves if we want to be part of the rest of the world and the eu. On the other hand im fully aware as you are of who started this war and what they on the croat side were trying to achieve in the operation which was stop shells from falling on you from the artillery at medak after many attempts to rectify this peacefully and politically. Let the guys go to trail like ante gotovina now and answer, ante gotovina on trail is a badge of honour for croatia because it shows they stood up as a country to be counted which costed lives which cant be forgotten something carla del ponte cant understand fully. If theyre not guilty then all is ok, thats the purpose of the court. But we cant erase fact and evidence until proven FAIRLY in a modern court.

These guys from Canada came as volunteers to try and help the situation. While many UN forces got  a bad repuatation for lack of action, and definitly the people at the very top of unprofor!!... the average un soldier were very good and brave guys who helped croatia with small and big unnoticed acts. Many of these acts are only known to people who witnessed them.The canadians here actually did what it took to preform thier mission where many other UN brigades failed, shall i say more about the dutch? In my opinion the guys who came as peacekeepers are just as brave in coming to help in their own mission as the Canadian international volunteers who came for the hv and hvo, hos to defend their land. We need to respect our veterans and listen to them from both sides, and open disscussion is the sole purpose of a forum.

 

[the 48th regulator]

You laid your lives???

Hwo was killed or wounded???

Mcpl Mark Robert Isfeld

Corporal Daniel Gunther

Me. I was Severly wounded..

December 31st, 1994

Or is that a lie too?

Shame on you for coming here and stating what you have said....go back to your other blog site....as this is not the first time you have trolled here..Dobar Dan pal..

dileas

tess

 

[galvanizer]

Mcpl Mark Robert Isfeld

Corporal Daniel Gunther

Me. I was Severly wounded..

December 31st, 1994

Or is that a lie too?

Shame on you for coming here and stating what you have said....go back to your other blog site....as this is not the first time you have trolled here..Dobar Dan pal..

dileas

tess

You've mitakened me with someone else.

 

[muskrat89]

galvanizer - without facts or substantiation, your comments are simply more rhetoric. You've offered your point, and made your opinion known. You knew this discussion would be inflammatory, and deliberately posting inflammatory comments is against the conduct guidelines. I see no thoughtful debate here. If that's not going to happen, then move along and rant on someone else's forum.

Army.ca Staff

 

[galvanizer]

@ LurkingKuna

The clash especcialy the story that canadians pushed us back is a lie.
fact was that our Army in those days had many shaky caracters. But this was because, as you said we didn't have it fair from the start. We had no army while JNA( at that time 5th in Europe) sided on Serbs side. To top it all we had embargo on wepons import.Everyone was saing taht we'll be done in 2 weeks but we stood our grond. So we took every hand that was willing to help. Even Mandela: " when we were sinking in living mud we took every hand that was willing to help". In Croatian situation this ment some caracters who had criminal history cause they could suply wepons  by their connections.
Medak as I said before happend because Un(canadians included) did nothing to stop serbian sheling of Gospic.3000 shels was dropped on Gospic from Un arrival to this action. We simply had it enogh. I never said that shit didn't happend baut I've said that "your" version is a imagend.

UN has left a shameful mark in Balkans. Beggining with Vukovar situation ending with Srebrenica. And Croats supported by Bill Clinton did Un job and saved Bihac from becoming another Srebrenica.

As i said I'm from Gospic. My father was killed in 1991. my brother lost his leg during Maslenica action and I've joined in just few months before tis action. To be precised end of May. So i know what I'm talking about.