Making Canada Relevant Again- The Economic Super-Thread

[I_am_John_Galt]

Just how is Europe's economy going to collapse?

The crushing cost of the Nanny-state.

It's comparable to those of the us or asian countries, and europe also has a lot of intrinsic disadvantages the us doesn't: the eurozone has very real language barriers, segmented capital markets, germany is still digesting the old east germany, etc. (canada also is at a scale disadvantage to the us).  for all that, you can still look up the oecd data and see that yes, the us does lead in per-capita gdp, but they're all within the same ballpark. plus, the us is every bit as protectionist (ag subsidies, industrial tarriffs, you name it) as the rest of them, even moreso in many cases.

Europe has tons of advantages and United States tons of disdavantages, too: the point is that as Europe's economy (and Canada's) is becoming increasingly socialized, the US is pulling further and further ahead.  The US is certainly far more protectionist than they let on, but they have *nowhere near* the the level of protectionism of Europe.

as for all this tinfoil-hat talk about the supposed "socialism" of europe or canada, do you really believe the canadian economy is closer to comecon than to the us model?

Than the US?  Definitely.  What do you mean by "supposed socialism"?  Are you trying to tell me that Trudeau, the NDP and about half (probably more) of Europe's political parties aren't socialist? 

Some of the most competitive companies in the world are from europe, and a few from canada as well. just try to name a single soviet enterprise that managed to compete globally. i can't.

Not entirely certain what your point is here, but soviet enterprises failed primarily because they were controlled by bureaucrats (much like healthcare is in Canada).  Yes Europe and Canada have some globally competitive companies, but the vast majority are from the US: why do you think that is?

Europe's economies are failing because labour productivity continues to slide (what the hell did they think a 35-hour work week would do).  Higher wages and longer vacations sound nice, but when coupled with dis-incentives to work are courting disaster.  Think of the perversity of the childcare situation in Canada: tax the hell out of people so the 'average' Canadian family (which I think now means both spouses working) can't afford childcare, then spend their money (after suitable administrative deductions for yourself and ad firms that donated to your campaign) to provide them with the service for 'free'.

For much of our history Canada's unemployment rate was close to that of the US (and sometimes lower): after decades of creeping socialism it is around double that of the US, but the revisionists claim that it is in some way related to our geography (or some other rubbish), rather than the 'social safety net' (yes, I am using that last term pejoratively).



New study compares GDP and growth:
EU versus USA


If the European Union were a state in the USA it would belong to the poorest group of states. France, Italy, Great Britain and Germany have lower GDP per capita than all but four of the states in the United States. In fact, GDP per capita is lower in the vast majority of the EU-countries (EU 15) than in most of the individual American states. This puts Europeans at a level of prosperity on par with states such as Arkansas, Mississippi and West Virginia. Only the miniscule country of Luxembourg has higher per capita GDP than the average state in the USA. The results of the new study represent a grave critique of European economic policy.

Stark differences become apparent when comparing official economic statistics. Europe lags behind the USA when comparing GDP per capita and GDP growth rates. The current economic debate among EU leaders lacks an understanding of the gravity of the situation in many European countries. Structural reforms of the European economy as well as far reaching welfare reforms are well overdue. The Lisbon process lacks true impetus, nor is it sufficient to improve the economic prospects of the EU.  http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/

 

[tomahawk6]

I think the greatest threat to the confederation is the issue of Quebec. At some point I think the people will vote to strike off on their own. Whether Quebec can survive on its own is a different matter entirely. If Quebec leaves then perhaps other Provinces [Alberta and BC] might follow suit. The problem I see [from the outside looking in] is that the more populous eastern Canada has a different agenda than does western Canada. The loss of Quebec voters would hurt the Liberal Party and might level the political playing field in the rest of Canada which I think be a good thing.

Those of US in the red states see Canada as our own future if the Democrats had their way. The erosion of religion and traditional values in Canada has been very steady. Canada is a much different place than it used to be. Canada and the US used to share these traditional values, but we dont anymore. Gay marriage and the legalization of drugs are two issues we have had in common but our two countries are on opposite sides of the issues. Our liberals support it and our conservatives dont. So far the traditional values wins out.

American's dont view Canada as an extension of the US. The charm of Canada to me is its British flavor, as befitting her membership in the Commonwealth. Canada was the colony that remained loyal to Britain. But I find Canada's increasing hostility to US foreign policy [defense driven] a major problem. Canada's major issues are economic [softwood and beef to name a couple]. Canada obstructs US foreign/defense policy which isnt good for the relationship. But Canada's embrace of Euro style socialism is hindering Canada's own economic future. Social programs are preventing Canada from providing for its own defense.
Canada used to be a major military power and now its not. Britain used to be a superpower and now its not. Why do you think that is ? Socialism. Once the NHS was created in Britian taxes went up and healthcare funding began to preclude military spending. Year by year the cost went up. Year by year the military declined. Both Canada and the UK have decided that it is more important to have national healthcare than to have infantry battalions, warships and combat aircraft. The reason is that the world is "safer" we have no enemies. Pretty soon the reduced military capability constrains foreign policy - essentially its a risk averse policy. Dont do anything that might make another country mad. Play it safe. Finally this policy forces the country to oppose the policies of its ally. The enemy of my friend is my friend policy.

I would like to see Canada turn back the clock to a time when she had traditional values that made it possible for Canada to stand tall in the world without regard to what other countries felt. To a time when Canada did something because it was right and not because it was popular. To a time when Canada was a world leader.

 

[Infanteer]

I think the greatest threat to the confederation is the issue of Quebec. At some point I think the people will vote to strike off on their own. Whether Quebec can survive on its own is a different matter entirely. If Quebec leaves then perhaps other Provinces [Alberta and BC] might follow suit. The problem I see [from the outside looking in] is that the more populous eastern Canada has a different agenda than does western Canada. The loss of Quebec voters would hurt the Liberal Party and might level the political playing field in the rest of Canada which I think be a good thing.

Although I agree with alot of what you say, Tomahawk, I just don't feel the "regional" card is our biggest political hurdle.  When you look at the way voting went in the last election (and in all our elections in general) you find that the main avenue of political division is between City and Non-City (not necessarily rural area).

If you look, the Liberals took (aside from the Maritimes and parts of Ontario this time) almost all of their seats in the major cities.  Even in the West, which hasn't been a Liberal stronghold in the last few decades, the Liberals took ridings in Major city centers (Winnipeg, Vancouver, Edmonton, Victoria) while all the outside ridings sent mostly Conservatives.  The Bloc has, since it split away from the PC party, had a share of the Quebecois malcontent vote (just as Reform had its share of Western Malcontent), but there is a sizeable portion of people outside of the St. Lawrence River valley that don't really care to leave Canada.

I think this may come to trump regionalism - even within a provincial context.  A lumberjack in Northern BC has more in common with a rural fisherman in Nova Scotia then he does with some guy who slings coffee or sell ad space in Downtown Vancouver.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I dithered over responding to this (see - I msut be a Liberal!), but finally decided to weigh in.

I think the greatest threat to the confederation is the issue of Quebec. At some point I think the people will vote to strike off on their own. Whether Quebec can survive on its own is a different matter entirely. If Quebec leaves then perhaps other Provinces [Alberta and BC] might follow suit.

well, we have made through the last 40 years, and i imagine we will continue to do so.

The problem I see [from the outside looking in] is that the more populous eastern Canada has a different agenda than does western Canada.

That is the nature of a federation.  The Midwest has a different agenda from the Eastern Seabord - and from California.  The Red states have a different agenda from the Blue states.  Homogeneity is both unlikely and unhealthy, to say nothing of boring...

The loss of Quebec voters would hurt the Liberal Party and might level the political playing field in the rest of Canada which I think be a good thing.

Quebec voters are also Canadian voters.  I guess if we could eliminate all the liberal voters, we would have a "level playing field" - one level enough that even Harper could win.

Those of US in the red states see Canada as our own future if the Democrats had their way. The erosion of religion and traditional values in Canada has been very steady.

Another way of saying that of course is that the growth and evolution of the state and its values has been steady...

Canada is a much different place than it used to be.

S'okay by me.

Canada and the US used to share these traditional values, but we dont anymore.

You say that like it is a bad thing.  We are two different socities, on very different tracks.  Divergence started a long time ago - and we are only slightly tangential to each other.  The farther down the track, the greater the divergence.

Gay marriage and the legalization of drugs are two issues we have had in common but our two countries are on opposite sides of the issues. Our liberals support it and our conservatives dont. So far the traditional values wins out.

It is okay to be on opposite sides - we are two soverign nations.

American's dont view Canada as an extension of the US.

Good.

The charm of Canada to me is its British flavor, as befitting her membership in the Commonwealth. Canada was the colony that remained loyal to Britain.

A view not widely held in Calgary, Dartmouth, or Rimouski...we are, as the saying goes, a mosaic of views, perspectives, and histories

But I find Canada's increasing hostility to US foreign policy [defense driven] a major problem.

A problem for whom?

Canada's major issues are economic [softwood and beef to name a couple].

And the vain hope that the rules of NAFTA will be abided by.

Canada obstructs US foreign/defense policy which isnt good for the relationship

Obstructs, or disagrees with?  I don't see any volition here, except perhaps in response to the above mentioned "economic troubles".

But Canada's embrace of Euro style socialism is hindering Canada's own economic future. Social programs are preventing Canada from providing for its own defense.

Canada is a democracy - one of several (ok, 2 1/2) in North America.  It is not "social programs" that is preventing Canada from providing for its own defence - it is the democratic will of the people that is doing that.

Canada used to be a major military power and now its not.

Beg to differ.  We have only been a "major military power" twice: during (and decidedly not after) WW I and WW II.

Britain used to be a superpower and now its not.

Agreed

Why do you think that is ? Socialism.

That is a little simplistic, as analysis goes, don't you think?

Once the NHS was created in Britian taxes went up and healthcare funding began to preclude military spending. Year by year the cost went up. Year by year the military declined. Both Canada and the UK have decided that it is more important to have national healthcare than to have infantry battalions, warships and combat aircraft.

I don't see it as so completely either / or, but I understand your argument.

The reason is that the world is "safer" we have no enemies. Pretty soon the reduced military capability constrains foreign policy - essentially its a risk averse policy. Dont do anything that might make another country mad. Play it safe. Finally this policy forces the country to oppose the policies of its ally. The enemy of my friend is my friend policy.

Or perhaps it truly is as a result of a more altruisitic and less pragmatic worldview?  The ascendance of liberalism over realism?

I would like to see Canada turn back the clock to a time when she had traditional values that made it possible for Canada to stand tall in the world without regard to what other countries felt.

I am not a fan of "traditional values" nor do i believe that it was those values that allowed us to "stand tall".

To a time when Canada did something because it was right and not because it was popular.

Popular - you mean like in accordance with the wishes of the people?

To a time when Canada was a world leader.

That job is already taken  

 

[Zipper]

LOL!!

Well said PPCLI.

I found the initial article and following ones quite entertaining. The collapse of the EU within 10 years! HA! I guess the growing US debt has no affect on its economy at all? Also considering that Europe and China hold a vast quantity of US war bonds, it would be interesting if they all decided to cash those in at the same time?

Someone back there stated that the US has control of the majority of large multi-national companies? I think they had better go back and read their facts again.

For those of you who are of the AMajoor Ilk. I think you should all move to southern Alberta. Where you can talk about separating from Canada and joining the States. Where you can drill an oil well in your living room without any environmental damage what-so-ever. Where the minimum wage is so low, you can pay your workers less then what they would make at McDonald's. Where the idea of a social program is a bus ticket to East Vancouver.

You'd love it there.

:dontpanic:

 

[Infanteer]

For those of you who are of the AMajoor Ilk. I think you should all move to southern Alberta. Where you can talk about separating from Canada and joining the States. Where you can drill an oil well in your living room without any environmental damage what-so-ever. Where the minimum wage is so low, you can pay your workers less then what they would make at McDonald's. Where the idea of a social program is a bus ticket to East Vancouver.

You'd love it there.

:dontpanic:

As one of the "AMajoor Ilk", I love to see valid concerns dismissed with a "Love it or Leave it" (this time applied to socialist policies) approach to counter-arguing the issues.... :

 

[air533]

.

 

[tomahawk6]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050319/ap_on_he_me/canada_wait_your_turn

Article seems to point to a meltdown in the healthcare system. Hope not.

 

[Zipper]

We may have long waits for hospital care. But that is because we are servicing the ENTIRE population. Not just those who can afford it.

 

[Brad Sallows]

So many people wring their hands about softwood and cattle, yet are prepared to export health care services in the name of ideological purity.  Go figure.

 

[oyaguy]

Well said Zipper.

To say Canada is doomed is both an exaggeration and a possibility. The reasons Mark Steyn gave were superficial, and given his interesting skew, unconvincing

I personally don't think it will be as a result of regional differences. Quebec is an important, and integral part of Canada, and I don't think they will be separating from Canada. Separatists in Alberta, are a kind of threat, and a joke. Whatever, Albertans may have had problems with the Federal government {when people bring up the NEP, I just roll my eyes, "get over it"} but we are quite comfortable in Canada.

The traditional values divergence, big whoop and traditional values are overrated {Easy for me to say, my parents are still married, my mother was a homemaker, and my sibling is a well adjusted straight, married person}. Besides, Canadian Society is not going to stand or fall on whether homosexuals can marry, women can get abortions,  or sex education {beyond that abstinence only BS} is taught at school.

Economically, we are good and screwed at the same time. The  debt is lower, the economy is doing well. The US debt is going up, and when or if that implodes, Canada is going down with the US.

The catch-all socialism that Mark Steyn describes is kind of weird. Does he know what he is talking about? The US for example is in a bigger hole when it comes to funding their "socialist" program {social security} than Canada is.

Bigger pits for Canada looks to me like, the fact that our infrastructure is not keeping up. You can experience this infrastructure deficit by driving on your pothole strewn streets.

Another is our ageing population, whom we have to provide medical care. A bright side for the aging population is that Canada is an attractive and accessible enough country and society to be a prime candidate for immigration. I mean accessible in that immigrants are welcomed, for example how many people move to Japan? Why not? They're rich, they have a high standard of living, but they're not accessible.

Then immigration brings its own problems, a lot of them of our own making.

Another pit is the environment. They environment can only take so much before we have to start paying back with interest.

Whatever. I can think of more and better ways Canada is doomed than Mark Steyn.

 

[squealiox]

john gault,

maybe mark steyn's got a fancier bloomberg terminal than i do, but i haven't been seeing any great stampede, or even trickle, of investments away from the currencies, stocks and bonds of europe or canada, or any latin-america-style warnings of political risk from any of the credit ratings agencies about these economies.

so steyn can toast our demise all he wants, but i'm afraid i'm just going to have to go with the market on this one.

(unless, of course, you're privy to some information the world's investment analysts have all overlooked, in which case you should immediately be setting up a hedge fund)

 

[gnplummer421]

Phew..a lot of reading there,

Interesting for sure, my concerns about the EU revolve around the present situation in Holland. Once a very Liberal Country, the recent killing of a film maker over a controversial Islamic shortfilm, has driven a wedge between the Islamic population and the more traditional religions there. Like us, Holland is also a "Land of immigrants" where many different cultures co-exist. Perhaps the changing trends there will be seen here in Canada in the future. I'd like to think we are extremely tolerable toward race,religion,etc. My biggest fear is Islamic expansion in the world, more precisely, the radical component of Islam that couldl eventually spread to every part of the planet. We will not be immune forever.

 

[mdh]

I personally don't think it will be as a result of regional differences. Quebec is an important, and integral part of Canada, and I don't think they will be separating from Canada. Separatists in Alberta, are a kind of threat, and a joke. Whatever, Albertans may have had problems with the Federal government {when people bring up the NEP, I just roll my eyes, "get over it"} but we are quite comfortable in Canada.

As Mark Steyn would point out it's a feature of the Trudeaupian soft totalitarianism to make certain political perspectives unacceptable and apparently illegitimate.   One of the officially approved ones is to think of Quebec as reflecting some eccentric "regional difference" within the bounds of confederation - a concept that Gilles Duceppe would finding amusing (not to mention Jacques Parizeau).   Given the 54 Bloc seats in the federal parliament (an unthinkable prospect 20 years ago) and the near death experience of the1995 referendum, I would think that Quebec's propects for going it alone have never been better. (Although in English Canada we think that the PQ is wedded forever to a referendum, it's not necessarily so - a new generation of leadership may simply say that the next time you vote for the PQ you are voting for sovereignty - and that's good enough for a UDI  -- the Clarity Act be damned.)

And if the people of Alberta can't over that "NEP" thing and get on with it, one wonders why Quebec can't get over that "Plains of Abraham" thing and get on with it.

We may have long waits for hospital care. But that is because we are servicing the ENTIRE population. Not just those who can afford it.

Actually we're RATIONING healthcare for the ENTIRE population (and continuing to fall behind) and doing so with budgets that are threatening to overwhelm provincial treasuries with double-digit increases every year. Most provinces are facing the propect of healthcare crowding out all other forms of government spending (some are now approaching 50 per cent of expenditure on healthcare)   Our medicare system is unsustainable, sclerotic, and increasingly inefficient, and although the left keeps talking about the glories of socialist medicine as a Canadian "value" that can be afforded if we want (to paraphrase Romanow) the real question the left never answers is how much will be enough? Will 50 per cent of your personal income going to taxes (as it is now) be enough to pay for the welfare state as we know it? Perhaps 70 per cent? Perhaps 90 percent? If Canada defines itself as a giant hospital ward, then heaven help all of us.

For those of you who are of the AMajoor Ilk. I think you should all move to southern Alberta. Where you can talk about separating from Canada and joining the States. Where you can drill an oil well in your living room without any environmental damage what-so-ever. Where the minimum wage is so low, you can pay your workers less then what they would make at McDonald's. Where the idea of a social program is a bus ticket to East Vancouver.

You'd love it there.

Ah yes, another love it or leave it outburst (as noted by Infanteer), which is of course the favoured rhetorical tactic of the Liberal Party (Jean Chretien mumbled similar sentiments not so long ago).

Actually Mississippi's unemployment rate if the same as ours at 7.1 percent but at least the southern states have had periods of sustained economic growth - a far cry from some "regions" of Canada where the nanny state has lulled entire populations into narcotic-like dependence on EI programs and so-called regional development schemes.

As for McDonalds I for one am tired of the usual left-wing suspects using that noble corporation as a favourite whipping boy.   It may excite the Zippers of the world, but getting rid of Supersizing was just another example of how weak and vulnerable most corporations are when faced by media-inspired pressure - in this case an unholy (unhealthy?) alliance of Hollywood cokeheads and vegan nuts based on a slanted agitprop documentary that managed to get an Oscar nomination - (and as Mel Gibson would be the first to note, predictably so, since any anti-corporate rant gets similar approval).

I personally love McDonalds and thank it for having saved me from many a vicious hangover after a night of unrestrained alcoholic mayhem.   (Besides Mayor McCheese was an inspirational figure for me and I challenge anyone to deny the value of the Hamburglar as a moral archetype to teach children the fundamental commandment that stealing is bad.)

I want Supersizing back no matter what the health nazis say (and it's no coincidence that we are targetted by endless propaganda about fitness at at a time when the state is all powerful in the delivery of healthcare - we can expect more of this with the Ontario Chief Medical Officer recently suggesting that portion control should be imposed on restaurants).

And yes, Zipper, if Green Cards were available to the general populace in Canada there probably would be a significant exodus south to the lair of the Great Satan as thousands of Canadians took their Honda Civics (like East German Trabants the one car they can afford) and crossed the border never to return to enjoy the one thing that Canada has turned its back on in the last 25 years - liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Sincerely,

Another A-Majoor Ilkist

 

[a_majoor]

Right now I am doing some preliminary research into the finances of my home city. The property taxes have increased by 7% last year; 6% this year and we are already hearing dire warnings about a 9% increase next year.

Since the service we actually do get from the city is crap, much of this increase can be attributed to out of control growth of the city staff, and paying for a wide range of pharonic building projects which benefit a few key players, while sucking up taxpayer money for interest charges and so on.

I believe that I could cut at least $100,000,000 (one hundred million) dollars from the budget without adversely affecting the real services which property tax is supposed to provide (i.e the protection of property); it will be interesting to see how many "ilkists" will come out and vote when offered a 10% tax cut......Imagine how many more ilkists would flock to the cause if a detailed review revealed spending and taxes could be cut substantially more.

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

Canada lives, and will continue to live as long as "we stand on guard for thee".  The biggest threat to Canada comes from thecombination of regional political parties and the  destabilizing effects of large scale ethnic immigration.  These immigrant groups are self segragating and increasing the regional differences between the Canadian Provinces.  The Bloc Quebecois, the Reform party, the Liberals, the regional skew of voters is allarming.  The pandering to ethnic voting groups who "bloc vote", and to regional issues over national ones for the short term goal of winning seats serve to weaken the long term stability of the nation.  All democratic nations must deal with this.  Europe is now trying to wrestle with this problem itself for the first time.  Canada being not a two party state like the US enjoys the greater freedom, and thus greater danger, in its politics.  Canada will endure as long as we remain dedicated to it.  Canada faces great challenges, as we have in every decade since Giovani Cabotti found the St Lawrence.  We are an older nation than Germany, and I think no more likely to fall into the American Abyss than Germany to dissappear in the EU.

 

[pbi]

Yes, Canada is doomed.

In fact-- we all are. A giant asteroid is going to smash into the earth when we are not looking.

That will serve some people right, that's all I can say.

Cheers.

 

[Cloud Cover]

The crushing cost of the Nanny-state.

Priceless!! Just remember, for everything else, there's Mastercard!!

 

[mdh]

Yes, Canada is doomed.

In fact-- we all are. A giant asteroid is going to smash into the earth when we are not looking.

That will serve some people right, that's all I can say.

Cheers.

You don't need an asteroid - just sit through an eight-hour federal-provincial conference - the asteroid would be comic relief,

cheers, all, mdh

 

[Cloud Cover]

I believe that I could cut at least $100,000,000 (one hundred million) dollars from the budget without adversely affecting the real services which property tax is supposed to provide (i.e the protection of property); it will be interesting to see how many "ilkists" will come out and vote when offered a 10% tax cut......Imagine how many more ilkists would flock to the cause if a detailed review revealed spending and taxes could be cut substantially more.

Please tell me you are going to sell off the planning and zoning departments. I would also like to see the JLC sold off, the City Solicitors office reduced to a part timer who is confined to actual municipal legal work instead of human rights and the law severance packages.  Cancel any and all cash advances to UWO and then increase property taxes on the university  - except the concrete beach because thats only place in the city where you get a true appreciation for the finer things in life around here. 

My property is actually "protected" by the OPP - so I don't really get any protection at all - so I would like to see that expense trimmed down as well. I'll opt instead for the trip wire activated/.22 cal/ propane tank buried in the ground type of protection-much more effective at a fraction of the cost.

Also, might I suggest contracting out the job of the truck that hauls poop from one treatment plant to another? He slows me down in the morning on my to work. Thanks, eh!