Liberals want Handgun Ban

[Old Ranger]

This I hate to bring up, and apologies if I missed it in the last 14 pages.

If handguns are banned, and only Police have handguns.  Were do you think someone who really wants one is going to get one?  I've had this discussion with Police Officers before; and, it always ends up with "your right" and to take more time on weapon retention practice.

Again I bring this up not as a smartass, but someone that does not want to see a Police Officer lose their weapon or get injured in the attempt.  I don't actually see this ban comming into practical play, but it is better to be prepared than scarred.

Ben

 

[midgetcop]

I brought this up in another thread but it bears repeating here.  There was an organization in the States a few years back that dedicated itself to making life easier for homeless people.  Their bright idea on how to spend donations was to buy new shopping carts for homeless people to use.

Now, get this, they didn't invest in job training or helping homeless people develop skills, kick dependencies, or otherwise improve themselves.  They chose to give them new shopping carts - ensuring that they stayed dependent on said organization, which could continue raking in donations and paying themselves decent salaries, all the while pretending they had done some good.

See how it works yet?

No, not really. You're implying a mass conpiracy which implies a system that propogates the problems rather than solving them. And you're using one organization from the U.S.

First off, show me a link or something to back up your example. Secondly, do you have any ideas on who/what is responsible for your conspiracy theory? Federal government? Provincial government? *ALL* levels of government?

I agree that a lot of attempts at bettering social conditions end up a flop, but to assume that they are done to keep the status quo is far from proven and seems more a result of the IMPOSSIBILITY of curing all social woes.

I think you give these organizations to much credit. I think they're just incompetant.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Consipracy?  No one has implied anything of the kind.  You use the word incompetent.  That means they don't know how to do their jobs well.  We're talking about the exact same thing, then.

 

[midgetcop]

Consipracy?  No one has implied anything of the kind.  You use the word incompetent.  That means they don't know how to do their jobs well.  We're talking about the exact same thing, then.

No, there's a difference.

Whereas I see people making decisions that are not based in current reality, from you I'm getting:

Very similar to the industry we have in homeless people.  We built a 7 story palace of a Drop In centre a few years ago downtown that is actually bigger than many of the hotels in that end of the core; the homeless business is booming.  Last thing any of the people in the "industry" would want is to see homeless people get jobs and places to live...

..which to me implies a plan put in place to make an industry that doesn't produce a solution or results in order to keep jobs.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I think some people fail to realise how many illegal guns there actually are floating around.

 

[midgetcop]

I think some people fail to realise how many illegal guns there actually are floating around.

Yup. That's problem #1 in Toronto. And solution #1 would be to find out where these illegal guns are coming from.

 

[dutchie]

Yup. That's problem #1 in Toronto. And solution #1 would be to find out where these illegal guns are coming from.

I am no more worried about the illegal importation of handguns than I am the illegal importation of cocaine, heroin, etc. I'd rather just put the users (of illegal guns and drugs) in jail for a while.  

Guns are tools. They are inanimate objects that require manual manipulation to operate. When I hear of roving bands of pistols running around shooting people without a person attached to them, then I'll support banning them. Until then, let's concentrate on the thugs that are corrupting those poor, innocent handguns.

If this mentality were present in Jack the Ripper's time, we'd all be using chopsticks.

 

[midgetcop]

I am no more worried about the illegal importation of handguns than I am the illegal importation of cocaine, heroin, etc. I'd rather just put the users (of illegal guns and drugs) in jail for a while. 

Guns are tools. They are inanimate objects that require manual manipulation to operate. When I hear of roving bands of pistols running around shooting people without a person attached to them, then I'll support banning them. Until then, let's concentrate on the thugs that are corrupting those poor, innocent handguns.

If this mentality were present in Jack the Ripper's time, we'd all be using chopsticks.

Hmm...let's think about this for a second......you *aren't* concerned about illegal importation of guns, yet you fully recognize that they contribute to crime?

It's impossible to concentrate on the thugs without concentrating on the illegal guns, one way or another.

If the guns are "illegal", then what is the problem with focusing on these "poor, innocent handguns"?

Whether you believe it or not, senseless killing is a LOT more difficult when such cowardly weapons are not so easily retained.

 

[Infanteer]

Hmm...let's think about this for a second......you *aren't* concerned about illegal importation of guns, yet you fully recognize that they contribute to crime?

Read his post again; he's saying that chasing "guns" is as futile effort to curb crime; if their is a demand for them, then there will always be a supply.   Look at how the US "War on Drugs" is working.

It's impossible to concentrate on the thugs without concentrating on the illegal guns, one way or another.

Oh really, what about thugs without handguns?   Are their crimes no less important.   If you want to target "thugs", focus on "thuggery", not on how they're are doing it.

Whether you believe it or not, senseless killing is a LOT more difficult when such cowardly weapons are not so easily retained.

Oh really?   How about the other 3/4 of homicides in Canada?  Look up Reena Virk or Jomar Lanot.   The fact is that, for most of recorded history, people have had an easy time killing eachother without have firearms technology widely available.

Quit chasing a red herring....

 

[paracowboy]

ah, yes, "Guns are evil."
Interesting thing, the belief that inanimate objects have sentience is referred to as animism and is only found amongst the more primitive societies.

 

[dutchie]

Hmm...let's think about this for a second......you *aren't* concerned about illegal importation of guns, yet you fully recognize that they contribute to crime?

I didn't say that, for a refresher....

I am no more worried about the illegal importation of handguns than I am the illegal importation of cocaine, heroin, etc. I'd rather just put the users (of illegal guns and drugs) in jail for a while.  

I said I am no MORE worried about illegal guns than I am illegal drugs. Handguns are illegal to every civilian, save some very, very restrictive exceptions. The reason we have an illegal gun issue is because of these restrictions in the first place. You cannot ban something that criminals NEED and not expect a blackmarket. In the end, it's the criminal, not his tools that are the problem.

It's impossible to concentrate on the thugs without concentrating on the illegal guns, one way or another.

Wrong. Put the customers in prison and the illegal gun dealers are out of business. Put the fear of a lengthy prison sentence in the minds of potential customers (say, 25 years for crime commtted while in possesion of an illegal firearm), and the gun dealers are out of business. Shall we ban pimped out hummers too?

If the guns are "illegal", then what is the problem with focusing on these "poor, innocent handguns"?

The guns are not illegal, their status is. Put that gun in the hands of an FAC (restricted) carrying canadian (properly stored of course), and voila! It's reformed!

Whether you believe it or not, senseless killing is a LOT more difficult when such cowardly weapons are not so easily retained.

Whether you like it or not, senseless killing has been around a lot longer than firearms. Or fire for that matter. Shall we ban knives? Clubs? Baseball? Golf? Cars? Rope? Hands?

 

[midgetcop]

I didn't say that, for a refresher....

I said I am no MORE worried about illegal guns than I am illegal drugs. Handguns are illegal to every civilian, save some very, very restrictive exceptions. The reason we have an illegal gun issue is because of these restrictions in the first place. You cannot ban something that criminals NEED and not expect a blackmarket. In the end, it's the criminal, not his tools that are the problem.

Understood. But what is the alternative? Loosen the law on handguns and you have the same problems. At least allow law enforcement the ability to confiscate these illegal weapons, or else you'll have a situations like you do south of the border. 

Wrong. Put the customers in prison and the illegal gun dealers are out of business. Put the fear of a lengthy prison sentence in the minds of potential customers (say, 25 years for crime commtted while in possesion of an illegal firearm), and the gun dealers are out of business. Shall we ban pimped out hummers too?

No, completely agree with that. But that doesn't mean I don't think we should go after the sources of the illegal handguns in the first place.

The guns are not illegal, their status is. Put that gun in the hands of an FAC (restricted) carrying canadian (properly stored of course), and voila! It's reformed!
Whether you like it or not, senseless killing has been around a lot longer than firearms. Or fire for that matter. Shall we ban knives? Clubs? Baseball? Golf? Cars? Rope? Hands?

I say again: I am *not* for banning of handguns. I never wanted handguns to be restricted from law-abiding owners. That NEVER was my opinion (if anyone cared to look back at my posts).

BUT, senseless killing is *far* easier when guns are involved. ILLEGAL handguns should be stopped at the source (AS WELL AS throwing the book at individuals).

 

[midgetcop]

Read his post again; he's saying that chasing "guns" is as futile effort to curb crime; if their is a demand for them, then there will always be a supply.  Look at how the US "War on Drugs" is working.

Oh really, what about thugs without handguns?  Are their crimes no less important.  If you want to target "thugs", focus on "thuggery", not on how they're are doing it.

Oh really?  How about the other 3/4 of homicides in Canada?  Look up Reena Virk or Jomar Lanot.  The fact is that, for most of recorded history, people have had an easy time killing eachother without have firearms technology widely available.

Quit chasing a red herring....

It's not a red herring when you live in the city.
Do I think that an inanimate object such as a gun makes an otherwise law-abiding person commit a crime? Of course not. Do I think that it makes it easier to commit murder? Yes, I do.

A thug is a thug is a thug, But a gun can make murder a heckuva lot less personal and a lot easier. Not to mention there are a lot more innocent bystanders in regards to shootings. Louise Russo sure wouldn't have been shot and paralyzed if  guns weren't used in a gang-related scuffle in Scarborough.

 

[dutchie]

Understood. But what is the alternative? Make handguns MORE legal, and therefore the problem goes away in this case?

Forget handguns for a minute, and think about the much bigger problem of our impotent 'justice' system. Prison sentences that seem woefully inadequate as a deterrent, a correctional system, that CMIIW, does not even have 'deterrent' as a goal, but rather 'rehabilitation and 'cost-effectiveness' (read:as little jail time as possible). And our police forces that are undermanned, underfunded, and in many cases underarmed.

Now, as far as guns go: make it so unattractive to be involved in guns and criminal activity at the same time that there is a real deterrent to it. Like I said earlier, make any criminal code offence committed while in possession of a firearm a min of 25 years in prison. I don't care if it's a Mac 10 or a vintage lever action winchester.   No need to prove that he threatened the clerk with the gun. Just possesing it is enough. Bye-bye stupid. Anyone caught smuggling, selling or buying either illegal guns or buying legal guns through illegal means gets a hefty prison term too.

Get tough on the criminal, and leave the law-abiding Canadian who likes to target shoot, carry some protection in the woods, or stir his soup alone ( ).

For some comparison:

Banning handguns to stop murder is like banning penises to stop rape.

 

[midgetcop]

Forget handguns for a minute, and think about the much bigger problem of our impotent 'justice' system. Prison sentences that seem woefully inadequate as a deterrent, a correctional system, that CMIIW, does not even have 'deterrent' as a goal, but rather 'rehabilitation and 'cost-effectiveness' (read:as little jail time as possible). And our police forces that are undermanned, underfunded, and in many cases underarmed.

Now, as far as guns go: make it so unattractive to be involved in guns and criminal activity at the same time that there is a real deterrent to it. Like I said earlier, make any criminal code offence committed while in possession of a firearm a min of 25 years in prison. I don't care if it's a Mac 10 or a vintage lever action winchester.  No need to prove that he threatened the clerk with the gun. Just possesing it is enough. Bye-bye stupid. Anyone caught smuggling, selling or buying either illegal guns or buying legal guns through illegal means gets a hefty prison term too.

Get tough on the criminal, and leave the law-abiding Canadian who likes to target shoot, carry some protection in the woods, or stir his soup alone ( ).

For some comparison:

Banning handguns to stop murder is like banning penises to stop rape.

And I repeat: I never supported the ban on handguns.

I agree. I think we should up the minimum sentences. Enough with the conditional and suspended sentences. Enough with the 2nd, 3rd, 4th (and so on) chances.

 

[R0B]

1. Illegal handguns in Canada are rare.
Very few criminals have them, and they tend to cost in excess of $2000 each. The only reason you hear about them all the time is because the media has sensationalized them?
A year or two ago there were two or three shark attacks off the coast of Florida. Suddenly, every shark attack in the US was reported on CNN, as if there were some shark attack epidemic. As it turns out, there was no significant change in the number of shark attacks. Does anyone remember this?
Anyways, it's the same thing with illegal guns. A few dozen people get shot in a city of more than 2,500,000 and suddenly we have a "major crisis." Come on. More people die in car accidents, so why not ban "assault" sedans?

2. Longer sentences don't work.
Punishments should fit the crime. Is it really worth adding a decade to someone's sentence because they used a gun? People who walk around with an illegal handgun, ready to commit premeditated murder don't care if you're going to change their life sentence to life plus 25. In fact, increasing the penalties associated with such crimes may only make criminals guilty of such a crime more likely to fight to the death rather than surrender, in the event of a showdown with the police.

 

[dutchie]

1. Illegal handguns in Canada are rare.
Very few criminals have them, and they tend to cost in excess of $2000 each. The only reason you hear about them all the time is because the media has sensationalized them?
A year or two ago there were two or three shark attacks off the coast of Florida. Suddenly, every shark attack in the US was reported on CNN, as if there were some shark attack epidemic. As it turns out, there was no significant change in the number of shark attacks. Does anyone remember this?
Anyways, it's the same thing with illegal guns. A few dozen people get shot in a city of more than 2,500,000 and suddenly we have a "major crisis." Come on. More people die in car accidents, so why not ban "assault" sedans?

Agree 100%.

2. People who walk around with an illegal handgun, ready to commit premeditated murder don't care if you're going to change their life sentence to life plus 25. In fact, increasing the penalties associated with such crimes may only make criminals guilty of such a crime more likely to fight to the death rather than surrender, in the event of a showdown with the police.

The fact is that if someone wants to kill another person, there is very little we can do about it. That person, well motivated, will use whatever he has to to kill him. That's not my point. My point is this: Get that guy when he commits an armed robbery, before he progresses to murder, and put him away. Make it so unattractive to commit crime whiole armed with guns that criminals will use other means. I'll bet the murder rate goes down, not because we've scared them straight, but rather that we threw them in prison for armed robbery for 25 years. It'll also even the playing field in armed robbberies. Hard-working entreprenuers who are robbed in their corner-store at knife point might start fighting back with clubs, spray, etc where they wouldn't have with a gun.

Guns belong to hunters, cops, soldiers, target-shooters, and otherwise law-abiding Canadians. This rabble has given them a bad rap.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

1. Illegal handguns in Canada are rare.
Very few criminals have them, and they tend to cost in excess of $2000 each. The only reason you hear about them all the time is because the media has sensationalized them?
A year or two ago there were two or three shark attacks off the coast of Florida. Suddenly, every shark attack in the US was reported on CNN, as if there were some shark attack epidemic. As it turns out, there was no significant change in the number of shark attacks. Does anyone remember this?
Anyways, it's the same thing with illegal guns. A few dozen people get shot in a city of more than 2,500,000 and suddenly we have a "major crisis." Come on. More people die in car accidents, so why not ban "assault" sedans?

Your out to lunch on this, but I'll play along. So your saying every gun a Gang Banger has is lawfully registered to that person? I thought not. The minute it leaves the registered owner, with out his permission, it becomes illegal. I think you may have meant smuggled, and there are thousands of those in Canada. Ask the cops or Customs, they'll verify it. We get them here at the border by the bucket fulls, and that's just what our overworked Customs guys catch.

 

[Slim]

You know, whether the Liberals like it or not Cnaada Customs is eventually going to have to be armed.

 

[Infanteer]

Understood. But what is the alternative? Loosen the law on handguns and you have the same problems. At least allow law enforcement the ability to confiscate these illegal weapons, or else you'll have a situations like you do south of the border.

Same problems?  Situations like you do south of the border?  What are you talking about.  Catch up with the thread, here is a good place to start:

From an earlier discussion:

BUT, senseless killing is *far* easier when guns are involved.

Really?   What is "senseless" killing?  How does a gun make it *far* easier?  Is senseless based on a matter of distance?  Handguns aren't that effective from anything but a very close range and the human body is quite fragile.  I would think that it would be *far* easier for me to acquire a knife for a couple of bucks at a hardware store and stick it between somebodies ribs to kill them.

Are you just making stuff up for the sake of posting here?

It's not a red herring when you live in the city.
Do I think that an inanimate object such as a gun makes an otherwise law-abiding person commit a crime? Of course not. Do I think that it makes it easier to commit murder? Yes, I do.

Don't make an appeal to authority to cover up for your shitty argument.  I've lived in right in the heart of Vancouver and have seen a guy gunned down right below my window, so I don't need a lecture on how big-city folks know everything.  As I said above, if guns make homicide easier, prove it; logically, your statement doesn't hold any water.  The crimes we are dealing with are not "hits" by cold-killers with assault rifles, they are outbreaks of violence that occur between groups of young men at point-blank range.  This is all covered in Ghiglieri's research.

But a gun can make murder a heckuva lot less personal and a lot easier. Not to mention there are a lot more innocent bystanders in regards to shootings. Louise Russo sure wouldn't have been shot and paralyzed if  guns weren't used in a gang-related scuffle in Scarborough.

You're sensationalizing and are guilty of the points that R0B just pointed out.  If you look up the statistics on stabbings, beatings, and petty robbery, you'll find a greater number of crimes and more victims and innocent bystanders.  Let it sink in - it is not how these acts are being committed, rather it is who is doing them and for what reasons.