LAV III Mobile Gun System (MGS)

[a_majoor]

Transformation in of itself isn't a bad idea; reducing the logistics train is always a good idea since it consumes a great proportion of the resources of any armed force. Substituting speed for mass is a viable option (well, I think so anyway), and increasing the tactical and operational mobility of a force provides the astute commander with a greater range of options.

The problem is the technology isn't quite there to make well protected vehicles and meet the operational/strategic mobility issues raised by the seemingly iron clad requirement that everything be transported by C-130. The further constraining factor is the sunk cost of all the existing equipment; if you REALLY wanted to, you could design an entire series of vehicles and systems which are transportable on a C-130 but they would not resemble a LAV or anything else you have ever seen, which in essence is starting from scratch.

Some solutions are available once you drop the C-130 issue, the LAV series does make a nice base for a fast moving, hard hitting "Cavalry" or "Mounted Rifle" type unit, and technical solutions like the "birdcage" stand off armour, CV_CT turret for the fire support version, through tube missiles for long range or "magic bullet" fire solutions, SP turrets in 105 howitzer or 120 mortar, Bison like support vehicles and so on exist or have been demonstrated. Like everything else, there are no perfect solutions, even if you could come up with a machine which is C-130 transportable and can fire a 105mm high velocity cannon, I can change tactics to negate the advantages of such a vehicle. "Cavalry" or "Mounted Rifle" units can chase the enemy around, split their formations, form cordons around complex terrain, but we will still need light forces to deal with some types of situations where the needed response time is very short, and heavy forces to use when cracking very hard positions or providing protected mobility in complex terrain.

The "problem" we are facing is political in nature; through forces beyond our control the Army is being "given" certain pieces of kit, then having to adapt or adopt TTPs and doctrine so they can be usable (G-wagon, MGS, MMEV....) rather than deriving our requirements from existing doctrine.

 

[geo]

Anyone ever see this Aussie "funny"

Bison LAV mounted with a breach loading 120mm mortar

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Out of curiosity, did anyone else see Hillier on CPAC last night? It was recorded yesterday (Feb 24) at the Institute of something-or-other conference.  He said something that applies directly to this thread.  He said that the Canadian Military will do its best to buy off-the-shelf military equipment from this point forward, that too often the additional requirements and customization requested by the military has left us with "orphaned equipment" that we then had to unilaterally fund upgrades for.  He mentioned "aircraft, planes and land systems" [paraphrased] twice and certainly made it sound like we were finished with our procuring of custom vehicles of all sorts that were not shared by at least one other NATO player.

Bottom Line:  I truly hope this means the axe is going to fall on this program....and maybe the MGS for that matter.


Matthew. 

 

[George Wallace]

Anyone ever see this Aussie "funny"

Bison LAV mounted with a breach loading 120mm mortar

I saw some of those, back in the mid '90s, out behind GM Diesel in London while on a tour of the plant.  The turrets seemed much taller though.  They were destined for Saudi Arabia.

 

[Armymatters]

Out of curiosity, did anyone else see Hillier on CPAC last night? It was recorded yesterday (Feb 24) at the Institute of something-or-other conference.  He said something that applies directly to this thread.  He said that the Canadian Military will do its best to buy off-the-shelf military equipment from this point forward, that too often the additional requirements and customization requested by the military has left us with "orphaned equipment" that we then had to unilaterally fund upgrades for.  He mentioned "aircraft, planes and land systems" [paraphrased] twice and certainly made it sound like we were finished with our procuring of custom vehicles of all sorts that were not shared by at least one other NATO player.

Bottom Line:  I truly hope this means the axe is going to fall on this program....and maybe the MGS for that matter.


Matthew. 

I also think that MMEV is also getting the axe as well from Hiller's comments... it is a strategic orphan as well so if Hiller says we will try to buy off the shelf, MMEV is another one of those projects that no other NATO ally will use. My opinion only.

It is interesting to note that he didn't mention the navy at all during that speech regarding off the shelf procurement, so I am thinking the Vics are here to stay, and we will be developing JSS and the Tribal replacements ourselves...

 

[a_majoor]

Ships really are bespoke items, unless the navy is interested in buying 20+ units (in which case finding a shipyard capable of doing the work becomes a problem). Aircraft and vehicles can be built on an assembly line basis, which makes them more appropriate for off the shelf purchases.

Now we have to direct the good general to look at the items on certain shelves....

 

[Avro_Arrow_1958]

My dad is in the military, and he told me that they cancelled it. He also said it was an american attempt to drop off their "junk" on us. He also mentioned that we might be getting, or it might be a good idea ,in getting the Amx 10 Rc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMX_10_RC

 

[Fishbone Jones]

My dad is in the military, and he told me that they cancelled it. He also said it was an american attempt to drop off their "junk" on us. He also mentioned that we might be getting, or it might be a good idea ,in getting the Amx 10 Rc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMX_10_RC

Is your Grampa named Clive?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

My dad is in the military, and he told me that they cancelled it. He also said it was an american attempt to drop off their "junk" on us. He also mentioned that we might be getting, or it might be a good idea ,in getting the Amx 10 Rc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMX_10_RC

Just curious what your fathers rank is and what is his trade?

 

[ArmyRick]

Avro Arrow 1958, I know too many people who are in the military that beleive the MGS deal is dead. Maybe some of these folks should tell Rick Hillier who only a few weeks ago confirmed the deal is still on and oh yeah, as we speak the yanks have put the MGS into Low rate production.

Maybe get the facts before you speak, eh?

 

[Avro_Arrow_1958]

He a master corporal , and hes been in the forces for 33 years. Hes now a traffic tech in the air force reserve.

Our government must be dumber then I though if they plan on getting the MGS.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Avro Arrow in the future make sure the information you post is correct and not hearsay, even if from your father, otherwise you will be introduced to the warning system.

 

[NavyShooter]

I'm not an expert on vehicles...being a sailor and all, nor am I an expert on armoured warfare, tactics and equipment, being a sailor and all...but hey at least they're new vehicles.

I'm sailing on a ship that's been in commission for 12 years, been in the water for 14, with no replacement in sight.  The first ship in this class went into the water in the late 80s, so about 18 years or so.  And still, no replacement.  (The only replacement projects on the boards now are for the AOR's and 280s...nothing for the CPF's yet that I've heard about.)

Ships take a HECK of a long time to plan and build.  These ships will not be replaced until probably 2020 at the earliest....

The MGS may not be ideal, nor may there be a perfect doctrine for it's use, but it is available, deployable, and is actually being procured.

NS

 

[a_majoor]

I know you mean well, and probably have a bit of the "shiney kit" envy (hey, they are getting new stuff and we won't until the next millenium!), but if I was to offer to replace your Halifax Frigate with a Type 520T (Houjian Class) Fast Attack Missile Craft without changing your mission you might not be so quick to take me up on the offer. If I was to tell you that the twelve Halifax frigates were to be replaced by four of the 520T's, plus four Haiqing Class (Type 037-I/ID) Subchasers and four Osa-I Class fast attack missile boats as a "system of systems", you would probably tell me to take my head out of my ***.

The MGS "may" be able to perform as an assault gun when integral with an Infantry company in the American "Stryker Brigade Combat Team" (SBCT) model, but that has yet to be proven, and that is a VERY different role than the MGS is supposed to have in the CF.

 

[NavyShooter]

Point taken Majoor.

Putting the capability gap that way makes it a bit easier for a sailor to figure out.



NS

 

[TCBF]

"My dad is in the military, and he told me that they cancelled it. He also said it was an american attempt to drop off their "junk" on us. He also mentioned that we might be getting, or it might be a good idea ,in getting the Amx 10 Rc."

- Right, so the French can drop off their 30 year old junk on us?  You own shares in GIAT? A small reminder: It was Canada that sold the 8 wheeled Pirana Family/LAV-25?Striker to the USA - not the other way around.

Tom

 

[rick7475]

My daddy was in the military, too. When I asked him and his buddies at the legion about the Stryker they spat out their beers and went on about tanks and Gustav lines in Italy or something

*tosses a nickel to a black hat* Here kid, go buy yourself a real tank  :'(




I was sad when I saw my rifle in the war museum ... bet we'll see the Leopard there, too.

 

[Grizzly]

Sadly, the Leopard already is there, both the C1 and the C2...

 

[TCBF]

Some are.  The ones that have been ultrasounded and found to have thin belly plates are the first to go. The rest will soldier on until replaced, to maintain a 'corporate memory' of crew, troop, and squadron skills.

If what we are deploying most is Coyote Crews, then we have to concentrate a lot of our effort towards sustaining that deployment.  Fifteen years ago we had four regular armoured regiments , we now have three smaller ones. 

No one wants a repeat of ten years ago, when a unit went to send a Cougar Sqn to the adriatic - again.  Meanwhile, a barechested (no tours) Leopard Sqn sat busting track.  The Bde (?) Comd said "No way you are sending guys on their third Yugo tour when you have a bunch who have not gone."

So, the Leo sqn trained up on Cougar, and the Cougar Sqn trained up on Leo.  If you were to guess that the ammunition bill alone for the change round topped $1,000,000, you would not be far off.

Tom

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I know that we have dozens of MGS threads, but I wanted to start fresh.

As much as it pains me to admit this, I have begun to see a viable role for the Mobile Gun System (MGS) variant of the Stryker for us over here.  I know that I have said before that Direct Fire Support is not a role, but I may have to reassess.  I have also said that the MGS was an answer in search of a question.  I am humbly introducting the possibility that I may have been wrong.

I was at a Forward Operating Base (FOB) out in the rhubarb for a little while.  It struck me that a Troop of MGS would have come in very handy for defending the FOB against attack (either harassing small arms or a dedicated assault).  I should say that the 25mm is a wonderful weapon and we do have air/aviation/artillery available.  Nevertheless, having four 105mm guns that can quickly bring direct, precise fire to bear on a given target night or day without the need for higher coordination is a good thing.  Artillery sited in a FOB can also fire directly, I suppose, but that tends to be clunkier.

Another task could be to detach a fire team to a "Platoon Group" on independent operations.  If the element is "ambushed", then the MGS halt and start hammering the enemy while the infantry manoeuvre to assault.  25mm can do this as well, but 105mm HESH has an appeal of its own and the LAVs are then free to manoeure if the ground permits.  When the platoon is halted the MGS can also certainly improve security.

I'd dump the sabot and carry HESH and maybe a 105mm version of the new "cannister" round that the US has for the 120mm.  An "airburst" variant would be even sexier to fire just behind/above a ridgeline.  Might be a fuzing nightmare given the loading system but something to think about.

So there you have it.  Nothing radical, I admit, but I just wanted to say that a Troop of MGS could prove handy over here in a , ahem, DFS role.

Cheers,

2B