Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread

[OldSolduer]

Just because you have been wounded in some manner does not necessarily mean that you are no longer able to contribute.  Were this the case there would not have been the contributions of WC Douglas Bader and Adm Horatio Nelson for starters.  I am sure there are a legion of others who made significant contributions following being wounded in some manner.  If you are able and willing, then for God's sake let them stay as long as they can do some good.

The lazy bastards who don't wish to or are unwilling to contribute are another case altogether and if a fire cannot be struck under their asses to change them then they should be shown the door.

I heartily concur.

I don't know how many pictures I've seen of officers and Snr NCOs/WOs who have a wooden leg or the arm of a tunic pinned up. There are jobs for them that would free up able bodied pers that could deploy.

 

[Pusser]

It is worth noting that the British Army has long had a practice of employing retired soldiers as instructors in their schools.

On another note, don't be too hard on the folks who've never deployed.  It's not always their fault.  Although I've got some ribbons now, it took a long time to get them because I was too often told that I was too valuable to allowed to deploy.  I was very close to getting out in disgust when I finally got my chance.

As for the fitness issue, I'm not a big fan of the ExPres test.  It's designed for long legged track stars, but who gets to carry the @#$! radio when it's time to hump over the mountain?  When the defence of the nation depends on my ability to run back and forth inside a 20m box, then I might have some faith in it.  In the meantime, how come I'm not allowed to take the BFT?

 

[Old Sweat]

For whatever it is worth, Lieutenant General Freddy Franks, who commanded 7 US Corps in the First Gulf War, had lost part of one leg in Vietnam. In my career I have meet both British and American officers with artificial limbs. These individuals, however, were fairly senior when wounded, and could still contribute as staff officers. The situation for more junior members of the CF, both officers and NCMs, may be deemed to be different.

Hopefully all ranks will be treated with compassion and they will be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

[57Chevy]

This article is one of the best I have read regarding wounded soldiers. It clearly outlines the commitment and compassion our Government has taken toward the wounded.

I must agree with E.R. about the "deadwood rumor".
The deadwood can easily be replaced by well motivated wounded soldiers even where some retraining or
further education would be required.

 

 

[HavokFour]

RAdm Smith is right, overweight and other unfit people are given help and a second chance, but my perception - which may well be quite wrong - is that too many are given third and fourth and even more chances.

TV is certainly correct: real personnel/staffing issues mean that we (the country) cannot afford to have injured soldiers, but let's start with those with the self inflicted wounds. At the very least anyone who cannot pass or does not attempt his/her fitness tests should be placed on a "restricted" list which means not eligible for promotion, no matter how "valuable" (s)he is to the team until (s)he is fit and "universally" available for service anywhere.

The CDS could start with a rumoured list of seniorish officers who are never available for tours, because, I hear, some bosses don't want to lose them or, perhaps, they cannot pass the medical or something. If we are looking at pushing wounded soldiers out the door they ought to be following the deadwood - if there really is deadwoods; I said that list was a rumour.

Here here!

First order of business: Turn off all escalators at Mackenzie King Station (Rideau Centre). I've noticed quite a few large waisted serving members there every morning.  >

But in all seriousness, unfit members should be looked at being released before any wounded members that may be able to do a better job.

 

[Kiwi99]

I agree with a lot of the comments regarding the 'dead-wood'.  And I look at it this way;

I know soldiers working at the infantry school who have been there for 5+ years and been twice promoted...but they can't seem to find a way to get deployed.  Hmmmm, healthy enough to meet promotion guidelines and complete courses....but can't deploy.  Or a Cpl/MCpl and higher in either the Inf, Armd, Arty or Eng that has not deployed to Afghanistan...EVER!!!  But can still stay in the CF even though there is nothing wrong with them.  .

We all know these types of people, some personally.  THEY are the deadwood that needs to be cut first, before all others.  Sure, some people that deploy cannot pass a BFT or some other challenge, but they still end up deploying anyway.  BUT, at least they deploy...unlike those i mentioned earlier.

As for the wounded, most, if not all, have drive and motivation beyond their peers.  If they can do a job then let them do it.  However, it must be made 110% clear that they may stay in their present rank if they cannot meet the requirements or pass the courses for promotion.  If they can, awesome, and I would very much like to see that.

So, in closing.  Yes, we have over-weight people in the CF.  But at least some of them deploy.  Those hiding out in schools or elsewhere in their units, you should be the first to be cut.  Those in said places that have done their bit and gone to face the enemy, well done.  You know who those are in your units that I talk about.

 

[dangerboy]

I agree with a lot of the comments regarding the 'dead-wood'.  And I look at it this way;

I know soldiers working at the infantry school who have been there for 5+ years and been twice promoted...but they can't seem to find a way to get deployed.  Hmmmm, healthy enough to meet promotion guidelines and complete courses....but can't deploy.  Or a Cpl/MCpl and higher in either the Inf, Armd, Arty or Eng that has not deployed to Afghanistan...EVER!!!  But can still stay in the CF even though there is nothing wrong with them.  .


.  Those hiding out in schools or elsewhere in their units, you should be the first to be cut. 

There are a lot of people at the schools that want to deploy but are not able to as they are being told they are not able to by their chain of Command.  It is very easy to attack the people at the schools but the majority of people I talk to want to deploy overseas but are just not able to.

 

[Kiwi99]

There are a lot of people at the schools that want to deploy but are not able to as they are being told they are not able to by their chain of Command.  It is very easy to attack the people at the schools but the majority of people I talk to want to deploy overseas but are just not able to.

So, in the last 5-6 years they have been too important to the schools?  Really, come on, you are kidding me...right? 

It's not an attempt to bash people at schools. So don't see it that way.  It's about those that are there that do anything they can to not go...and they DO exist.

Long and short of it...if you want to deploy there is no reason, not even your CoC , to stop you from submitting the memo, speaking with your career manager.  Not to mention, every infantry BG that has returned has posted people tio the infantry school, and they send people back to the units and they go on tour the following Roto or soon after.  But there are people that don't ever get posted back, no matter how many people we send to the inf school.  Like I said, no soldier is too important that they cannot go and to their job and fight in a war!

 

[aesop081]

I know soldiers working at the infantry school who have been there for 5+ years and been twice promoted...but they can't seem to find a way to get deployed.  Hmmmm, healthy enough to meet promotion guidelines and complete courses....but can't deploy.  Or a Cpl/MCpl and higher in either the Inf, Armd, Arty or Eng that has not deployed to Afghanistan...EVER!!!  But can still stay in the CF even though there is nothing wrong with them.  .

You must think very highly of me then. 5 years in the same unit and have gone from Cpl to (very shortly) WO. I have never been to Afghanistan although several of my subordinates have.

I repeatedly asked but for a very long period i was a "one of" in terms of certain qualifications and had to remain in Canada so that my unit could fulfill its operational missions. Once, my unit said it would suck it up and do without me but my MOC decided that a person of higher rank was required. I only ever turned down one opportinity for a tour and that was to the DRC. I refused it because i would have had to leave almost immediately ( it was to replace someone being pulled out and was already 2 weeks behind) and being a single-parent, that was no very ideal. Given a bit more notice, i would have gone.

You should be careful with those broad brushes.........

 

[Kiwi99]

You must think very highly of me then. 5 years in the same unit and have gone from Cpl to (very shortly) WO. I have never been to Afghanistan although several of my subordinates have.

I repeatedly asked but for a very long period i was a "one of" in terms of certain qualifications and had to remain in Canada so that my unit could fulfill its operational missions. Once, my unit said it would suck it up and do without me but my MOC decided that a person of higher rank was required. I only ever turned down one opportinity for a tour and that was to the DRC. I refused it because i would have had to leave almost immediately ( it was to replace someone being pulled out and was already 2 weeks behind) and being a single-parent, that was no very ideal. Given a bit more notice, i would have gone.

You should be careful with those broad brushes.........

I was speaking of my trade, of which I am qualified to do.  With regards to your trade, I am sure you also have seen similar things.

I really don't know why we tip toe around the issue.  While we do have members with self induced health problems, and they repeatedly get slammed on these threads, we all seem to ignore the other elephant in the room.  The fit and healthy soldier that for some reason can never deploy anywhere.  And in my trade there is quite a few of those.  And again,  a lot of them are in schools, that's a fact.  And if they can remain fit and healthy and get promoted but not once in 5-6 years get deployed, then there is an issue.

 

[vonGarvin]

This is a serious response to the "never deployed there" part mentioned earlier, just to illustrate that "some do" pass through the system.  I'll use me as an example.
In 1992, I was posted from 2 RCR to an ERE position in London Ontario, fresh back from Cyprus.  I was due to be posted back to a battalion in 1995, but was accepted UTPNCM and ended up staying in London for four more years.  Then in 1999 I was posted to a battalion fresh back from Bosnia.  So, after Bosnia stood down, we all looked around, and there I was, no tour in the Balkans, in spite of many others having multiple tours and in spite of me serving in the Regular Force infantry since 1989.

But I think that the concensus is there: physically unfit people (due to just being out of shape) ought to be removed from Her Majesty's service before the wounded in action.

 

[captloadie]

But I think that the concensus is there: physically unfit people (due to just being out of shape) ought to be removed from Her Majesty's service before the wounded in action.

Yes, it is important that we all remain fit. And no one should be failing the Express Test, because it really isn't that hard. But we shouldn't be using the broad stroke brush. What if one of these rotund Ottawa souls you see is the best int analyst at the unit who has proved their value time and again. Yeah he can pass the PT test, but would really struggle at the BFT. Compare him to a wounded soldier who can't sit at a desk for more than 45 minutes at a time because of his injuries. Does it make sense to say the productive one must go to if the injured one has to?

If we go back to the topic of the post, the answer we need to find is what do we do with those that no longer meet the UofS? The best idea so far is to employ those we can in the civilian side of DND. Instructors, Sim operators, range staff, Project offices, etc. are all places their experience can be put to good use.

 

[McG]

This will be a difficult potato for whoever has to manage it.

There will be plenty of emotional issues to address - I suspect some will request/demand preferential treatment for casualties of Afghanistan over any other medical release.  Personally, I don't think we should be doing geography based preferential treatment.  If service member is injured in the performance of duties, that person deserves the same care regardless of if the incident happened in Wainwright, Afghanistan or the middle of the Atlantic.

One of the problems is that many combat related injuries are sufficient to put a person right into a PCAT, and once that happens the clock starts counting for the remaining time that one can be retained.  Back in Canada, some can spend two years on TCATs before a decision is made that their condition is permanent.  Some individuals even cast the appearance of becoming quite good at riding a train of TCATs that are broken just sufficiently that the individual never catches the attention of a medical AR - many such individuals are labelled malingerers (and some probably are).  For these people (regardless of where the condition first started or of the malingering possibility) the CF needs to be more aggressive in assisting the transition to civilian employment.

I would propose a few things.  Firstly, that CF members be added to the PS priority hire list as soon as a medical release decision is made and even if that member is to be retained for another three years.  Secondly, that service member names should remain on the PS priority hire list for greater than the current two years.  Finally, there needs to be mechanisms to ensure we do hire those injured members that want to be hired in the PS.  I don't like the idea of creating unneccesary jobs just to keep people employed, but there needs to be something for even those times with the budgets are crunched and the department (or all the government) declares no new hires.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Yes, it is important that we all remain fit. And no one should be failing the Express Test, because it really isn't that hard. But we shouldn't be using the broad stroke brush. What if one of these rotund Ottawa souls you see is the best int analyst at the unit who has proved their value time and again. Yeah he can pass the PT test, but would really struggle at the BFT. Compare him to a wounded soldier who can't sit at a desk for more than 45 minutes at a time because of his injuries. Does it make sense to say the productive one must go to if the injured one has to?

If we go back to the topic of the post, the answer we need to find is what do we do with those that no longer meet the UofS? The best idea so far is to employ those we can in the civilian side of DND. Instructors, Sim operators, range staff, Project offices, etc. are all places their experience can be put to good use.

I don't think personal stories help much, but ...

I was (still am) one of those "rotund Ottawa souls" who could, and did, pass the PT test but, thanks to some serious joint problems, suffered for it for days, sometimes even weeks, afterwards. Oddly enough, a BFT (scaled down as it was in NDHQ in the '80s) was 'easier' for me - but I only recall doing it every two or three years. But I could, just, pass the annual (now and again semi-annual) PT and (less frequent) weapons tests when, now and again, they were offered.

Anyway, I was on PCAT for a fairly serious neurological condition. I could work but my employment (and prospect for promotion) was 'restricted' for various reasons. I was issued with a cane to address a balance problem, caused by the neurological condition,* but then, as now, it was more help with arthritic knees. (Paradoxically, the most effective treatment for osteoarthritis of the knees is weight loss, running, jogging and walking are amongst the best ways to lose weight, they are also the hardest on the knees and ankles.)

Given my sundry medical problems no one - like the VCDS who was the only guy who mattered - cared too much about my waistline. Every two years there was a CMRB (Career Medical Review Board) and every two years I was told that I could retire now or stay in - as I chose. I enjoyed my work and felt it was worthwhile and I felt that I was amongst the best choices for that job, so I stayed and stayed.

So I agree, not all the "rotund Ottawa souls" are unfit, but those who are need to be on restricted status: no tours = no promotion or jammy postings. And those who are, for other than valid medical reasons, unfit need to be given one chance for remedial action before they are booted out.



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Edit: *  before some smartass says it, yes one can serve as a senior officer, directing a staff branch, without a fully normal brain! In fact, at least in the '80s and early '90s in Ottawa it probably helped to be somewhat mentally disabled. 

 

[Pusser]

Yeah he can pass the PT test, but would really struggle at the BFT.

What about those of us who struggle with the ExPres test, but can complete the BFT without difficulty?

 

[dogger1936]

I think this is a great initative IRT offering jobs such as the Rangers and the cadet program. Excellent stuff. I am personally getting sent away to a out of trade position if all goes well this APS and am very happy about it. I know the PCAT is coming, and I suspect the release. This position will hopefully prevent the latter.

 

[OldSolduer]

Yeah he can pass the PT test, but would really struggle at the BFT. 

If the minimum standard to pass is the EXPRES Test and that solider is not in LFC, that is the standard. The soldier passes.

If the soldier struggles with the BFT and passes, the soldier still passes. If the soldier does not pass the BFT, that soldier must be given an opportunity to train and make the standard.

Its not as simple as "They're unfit....toss them." There is a process that must be followed. And that goes for everyone.

 

[Timmy!]

Sad thing to add... but doing the IPT program. Seeing some folks fail the EXPRES test, and then the BFT (Tap out at 2km mark). But yet, still deploys, while the rest of us have to do both fitness tests. Fair or what?

Only thing wrong with them, is the lack of PT they do. Also over weight and smokes... hmm.

Regards,
TN2IC




*edit for spelling*

 

[OldSolduer]

Sad thing to add... but doing to IPT program. Seeing some folks fail the EXPRES test, and then the BFT (Tap out at 2km mark). But yet, still deploys, while the rest of us have to do both fitness tests. Fair or what?

Only thing wrong with them, is the lack of PT they do. Also over weigh and smokes... hmm.

Regards,
TN2IC

Not fair at all and the CoC should be dealing with that.

 

[GAP]

Boy there sure is a lot of hand wringing over a minuscule number of pers....I'm not talking about the malingerers, but the injured vets. So long as the numbers a low, LEAVE THEM ALONE.

When it gets into the thousands revisit it...

my :2c: