Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread

[Nemo888]

My thoughts:

Universality of service is necessary.

BUT.

I would like to see service members wounded in service the chance to work for the recruiting center, a la "Starship Troopers". If a wounded vet still can still sell the CF to applicants, all the while being a graphic reminder of the commitment it entails, I would think it would doubly or triply serve us.

I must admit that always really appealed to me too.

 

[aesop081]

But you don't have to be promotable to be employable.

Lets not confuse the issue.

I dont think anyone was confused.

 

[IBM]

I would like to see service members wounded in service the chance to work for the recruiting center, a la "Starship Troopers". If a wounded vet still can still sell the CF to applicants, all the while being a graphic reminder of the commitment it entails, I would think it would doubly or triply serve us.

I thought they did that back in the day, didn't they? Your local recruiter used to be some old crusty Sgt too banged-up\shot-up to do anything else and is really just hanging around till he has enough years for a full pension.

 

[Armymedic]

I dont think anyone was confused.

Just me.  :blotto:

 

[childs56]

I think they should catogorize those injured members as non operational and offer them jobs that do not require them to be deployed. They keep their wages and benifits they have and they can stay where they are or apply for a posting elsewhere. We have many jobs on bases across Canada that do not require operational status and or are filled by civilians. It is going to be a very touchy subject but one that should have been thought about years ago.
As for non operational injuries and catagories well those have to be on a case by case basis, many jobs require certain training and abilitys that we may not know about. The problem is how do we figure out who we need and who we are sheltering.

 

[Pusser]

I think they should catogorize those injured members as non operational and offer them jobs that do not require them to be deployed. They keep their wages and benifits they have and they can stay where they are or apply for a posting elsewhere. We have many jobs on bases across Canada that do not require operational status and or are filled by civilians. It is going to be a very touchy subject but one that should have been thought about years ago.

And where would those jobs be?  If we fill every non-operational job with the non-deployable injured, pretty soon every healthy person in the CF will be constantly deployed.  This is not a very good recruiting and retention tool ("join the Army - never go home again") and will lead to horrendous burnout to the point where no one will be deployable.  Contrary to popular belief we do not have a lot of jobs that do not require operational status.  In many cases, non-operational positions are filled by individuals who have just completed or are preparing to leave on an opertional deployment.  What we call the "sea-shore" ratio in the Navy is very important and we ignore it at our peril (I know it's not perfect, but we try).  We need to treat members who've been injured properly, but this is not the solution.  A better idea would be to create civilian positions that can take advantage of the knowledge these folks have.

 

[jollyjacktar]

But, would that not just be robbing Peter to pay Paul?  A position is still a position regardless of how the person filling it is dressed.  We only have so many slots, period.  I'm sorry that I don't have a suggestion to put forward unless it was for expansion both of the CF and DND to make room for these folks.  Even that will only take you so far, and I don't see the public at large supporting it.  They already want a peace dividend, again.

 

[childs56]

Considering all bases have many civilians employed doing jobs that at one time were staffed by Military and or civilian personalle not to mention the multiple postings across Canada that have Regular Force members in positions that could be staffed by Non Operational staff.  Things that come to mind are Base Stores, CE, Office Staff, training Cadre, Recruiting Staff and the list does kinda go on and on.

You could easily intergrate members who are injured due to Operationl and non operational service while on Duty and keep them within the system. They would maintain their pay and rank and all other benifits. But take them out of the loop for their Operational status and redesignate them non Operational. 
Or the other soolution is to Pay them their wages and benifits till they retire then give them their full pension. But that brings up many other issues.

If your argueing this point maybe I am not saying it correctly, but all Bases have non deployable personalle either Civilian or Military employed through various Jobs through out.

Although this may not apeal to everyone, they can still make a choice to serve their country even if it maybe as a office clerk or Storesmen on Base. All still important jobs.

 

[aesop081]

but all Bases have non deployable personalle either Civilian or Military employed through various Jobs through out.

No, that is a false statement. Everyone in the CF, regardless of position, is deployable. We have had many, many people in static units and domestic HQs get deployed to various missions around the world.

 

[jollyjacktar]

That's correct.  My last trip to TFA was done while I was with my present Unit, FMFCS, which is a building and not a ship.  There were plenty of others from shore billets there with me too.

 

[childs56]

Every member of the Canadian Armed Forces on Active Duty is considered Deployable. But I would wager that only 70-80% (thats being generous) of the Regular Force is actually Deployable at any one time for various Reasons. The Reserves are fully deployable as is the Supp Res list with much less of a percentage of those who would dag Green.

Face the facts that CF Office worker that weighs 280lbs and is 5'1 at Base HQ may be a awesome Clerk, but is not deployable in reguards to fitness or War fighting ability. But they possess the skills required to do their day to day job better then the person next to them who is more focused on being fit then they are at their job.

When I say non "deployable" I mean non deployable positions" I mean the Actual position at Base Supply or Base HQ where a person can work and that actual position is a static Position. Base supply Would not pack up go to minimum manning and deploy Base supply as a unit to support operations abroad. (there are exceptions but not many)
The Regimental QM will deploy with the Regiment then will transfer as the new unit rotates in.
We do not deploy complete bases through rotations, we deploy Regiments who then task out Battalions.  Someone is going to say "we draw from Base HQ to provide personalle". We draw from across Canada to fill some positions so that point is null and void.

Bottom line is there are many positions within the CF that can be filled by Unfit for active duty Servicmen and Women who are inured on Operations. No they will not take away all the cushy jobs, maybe some of them. But hey they were injured so they should have a choice.

Many of you are looking at this as a "you" issue when in fact this is a Leadership issue. If you have 1000 people injured from Service reasons through out Canada we can easily employ them, we may have to lay off a Civilian or maybe not renew a contract or two but it is more then possible.
Afterall that person working Base Stores for the past 10 years and is not going anywhere soon can rotate to a line unit to provide a position for a injured member.

 

[aesop081]

When I say non "deployable" I mean non deployable positions" I mean the Actual position at Base Supply or Base HQ where a person can work and that actual position is a static Position.Base supply Would not pack up go to minimum manning and deploy Base supply as a unit to support operations abroad. (there are exceptions but not many)

I know what you mean and you are still wrong. I have seen enough people in static positions get handed a CFTPO tasking message and head off to TFA and a few others. At certain bases, services had to be drasticly reduced as entire base functions ( non-deployable units) were CFTPO'ed wholesale to man the MSS in Mirage.

Bottom line is there are many positions within the CF that can be filled by Unfit for active duty Servicmen and Women who are inured on Operations.

I never said that this was not the case. I was only refuting you assertion that there are non-deployable uniformed members of the CF based on what unit they work in. That is entirely false.

we may have to lay off a Civilian

As someone who has had to deal with DND civillians and the unions, i wish you the best of luck with that.

Afterall that person working Base Stores for the past 10 years and is not going anywhere soon can rotate to a line unit to provide a position for a injured member.

Why not rotate in a deployable member whos tired of deploying aft his/her 4th tour ?

 

[OldSolduer]

We can argue all we want on here and debate endlessly. The bottom line is that if a member is deemed unfit due to illness or injury and cannot be deployed on ops, Universality of Service is breached.
There are systems and programs in place to assist those members who are going to be medically released to transition them to civilian life. As much as I do not want to see them go, the policy is there and it must be adhered to.

 

[dogger1936]

I typed out a big rant that made me feel better and deleted it. ;D

Im injured and cannot WAIT to burn this uniform and fling my medals. I will gladly get out tomorrow if they speed up the buracracy bull to let me out. Oh and by the way...I'm gonna take em for every darn cent I can.

I will never recommend deploying for this country to anyone.

 

[childs56]

dogger1936
I know a few guys with your exact thoughts. Good luck in your future endevours what ever they maybe.

 

[57Chevy]

We can argue all we want on here and debate endlessly. The bottom line is that if a member is deemed unfit due to illness or injury and cannot be deployed on ops, Universality of Service is breached.
There are systems and programs in place to assist those members who are going to be medically released to transition them to civilian life. As much as I do not want to see them go, the policy is there and it must be adhered to.

Well said Jim.
Although most soldiers never want to leave the military, there are existing circumstances that make release
the better overall option. 

 

[Towards_the_gap]

In my first post I was perhaps a little too accurate of a description of a current situation, so with persec in mind, have edited this post.

How should the universality of service be applied to the PRes? I know, I know, under section blah blah blah, they can be mobilised, but really, apart from MACP tasks, when was the last time a full reserve unit was mobilised for overseas service? Surely some of these wounded pers have a greater right to Class B/C positions, ops/trg type jobs, at a reserve unit close to their home, in order to both aid their reintergration to civvy street, allow them to still contribute in a meaningful way, and yet allow their former position to be filled with a fully fit person? A greater right I should say, compared to someone in the PRes who has not deployed at all and only fills class b/c contracts because they want a full time job without the hassle of being posted.

 

[George Wallace]

In my first post I was perhaps a little too accurate of a description of a current situation, so with persec in mind, have edited this post.

How should the universality of service be applied to the PRes? I know, I know, under section blah blah blah, they can be mobilised, but really, apart from MACP tasks, when was the last time a full reserve unit was mobilised for overseas service? Surely some of these wounded pers have a greater right to Class B/C positions, ops/trg type jobs, at a reserve unit close to their home, in order to both aid their reintergration to civvy street, allow them to still contribute in a meaningful way, and yet allow their former position to be filled with a fully fit person? A greater right I should say, compared to someone in the PRes who has not deployed at all and only fills class b/c contracts because they want a full time job without the hassle of being posted.

Although I am of a like mind with you on this, there is a whole new problem that would be created by placing these people in Reserve units, but not working within those Reserve Units.  Taking up posns in a Reserve unit (the same problem with keeping them in a Reg Force unit), cuts down on numbers of posns that those Reserve units can recruit for and fill.  This is where the PRL would have to be put to use. 

If these people can be employed in Class B posns at a Reserve unit, fine.  If not, employ them in Class B posns as part of the PRL, in posns at various Reg Force establishments (NDHQ, CMBGs, Trg establishments, etc.).

 

[the 48th regulator]

We can argue all we want on here and debate endlessly. The bottom line is that if a member is deemed unfit due to illness or injury and cannot be deployed on ops, Universality of Service is breached.
There are systems and programs in place to assist those members who are going to be medically released to transition them to civilian life. As much as I do not want to see them go, the policy is there and it must be adhered to.

Very well said.

CTD, your feelings are noble, however, they are not feasible in any way.  You think a combat soldier would be satisfied Photocopying and answering phones??  You actually think it is even easy to remove civilian unionized workers (some of them Veterans by the way, I being one of them  ) to back-fill with these wounded vets?

Jim nailed it.  There are many services out there that provide a very good transition for these people.  Stop relying on the MSM to tell you what is happening to the wounded vets, and listen to some of us that are part of the system that helps the soldier transition out properly.

dileas

tess

 

[McG]

But, would that not just be robbing Peter to pay Paul?  A position is still a position regardless of how the person filling it is dressed.  We only have so many slots, period. 

Not really true.  Regular Force Positions, Reserve Force Positions and Civilian Positions are three distinctly different things.  You cannot place a Reg F soldier in a reserve or civilain position, you cannot place a reservist in a regular force or civilian position, and you cannot employ a civilian in a military position.  Military personnel (regular and reserve) must meet universality of service.  Further, we have an established ceiling for the number of regular force positions, and so moving a non-deployable service person into the public service does free a spot for a deployable member.

Surely some of these wounded pers have a greater right to Class B/C positions, ops/trg type jobs, at a reserve unit close to their home, in order to both aid their reintergration to civvy street, allow them to still contribute in a meaningful way, and yet allow their former position to be filled with a fully fit person?

A service member that does not meet universality of service does not (and should not) have a "greater right" to any military position over someone that is deployable.  We should be reintegrating such members to the civilian workforce and all the better if we can benefit from thier experience through employment in DND, but we should not be kicking deployable Class B (including B/A) reservists out of thier jobs to make employment for someone that is no longer medically fit to serve.  ... it is neither fair to the reservists filling existing positions nor is it good for the unit to impose pers that cannot support even the short weekend exercises, into the limited full-time staff.

If these people can be employed in Class B posns at a Reserve unit, fine.  If not, employ them in Class B posns as part of the PRL, in posns at various Reg Force establishments (NDHQ, CMBGs, Trg establishments, etc.).

Unfortunately, this also flies in the face of clearly articulated higher intent to reduce the number of full time reservists outside of the reserve establishment.  We have more full time reservists than we should have.  Both the Army and the CF have stated goals to correct this.  If we start creating HQ reserve jobs for the sake of giving them to non-deployable service pers, then we will be robbing Class B from the place that it belongs - in the reserve units.

In the end, the CF's only long-term sustainable solution is to limit medical retentions in quantity and duration while ensuring we do everything possible to support a sucessful transition of wounded members to the civilian workforce.