Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[OldSolduer]

Ukraine's main lesson is that compromise doesn't work.

We should have learned that from World War 2. But lessons in history are soon forgotten because each new generation of political leadership thinks they can do it better.

 

[CBH99]

Screaming at people and telling them that they're Morons at the top of your lungs. That should do the trick.
Sigh The charm school just took your money and ran. Didn't they ?
Personally I suspect educating the public might require a slightly different approach to.be successful.

Would it help if I whispered it softly?

Jk jk

I don’t know how to educate the Canadian public when it comes to the importance of military matters.

Our operations in Afghanistan were discussed nearly daily, or weekly, for roughly a decade. And that isn’t even including the ramp ceremonies, or when the government sole sourced big contracts to acquire capabilities quickly. Plus there were quite a few documentaries made, and monuments erected throughout the country.

Also remember, we all had smart phones which could Google things then, too.


Between that era, recent developments with us leading a tripwire brigade in Latvia, having trainers in Ukraine, having been quite involved in the SOF side with combating ISIS - plus domestic operations which have increasingly been discussed in the MSM…

If all of that hasn’t prompted Terry from Swift Current, SK to Google something relevant on his smartphone… I honestly don’t know what we could do to encourage or facilitate education.


We need to be open to the possibility that there may, as suggested, be an abundant number of ‘low mental performance’ people in society…

 

[Dana381]

It's not so much that canadians don't care about our military. It's more that they think the CAF is a pathetic institution that has no budget and is full of toxic men that prey on women members. When something is perceived as bad people get uncomfortable try not to think about it.

Canadian media reports on the CAF whenever a juicy story comes along where they can spin it to make the CAF look stupid. When the C-17 was ordered the media was "this is was too expensive" when they should have been "wow look what this new plane can do" every CAF news story plays out the same.

Canadians are proud of our military accomplishments when they know about them. Look at the highway of heroes phenomenon. Has any other country had anything like it? When the C-17 was bought none of the people I talked too objected to it when I told them how good it is. They had only heard the media's side and thought it was a waste of money.

Canadians want to be proud of the CAF but the media keeps them focused on social programs and gender issues. The GOC could turn around public perception of the CAF if they desired but then they would have to fund it better. It's far easier to let the media do its thing and use that money to buy votes with $10 day care.

 

[btrudy]

you are correct but our attitude can be found elsewhere in abundance. Consider Germany. they have allowed their military to be completely hollowed out as well and they have Russia right on their door step. We collectively seem to think that all we have to do is talk it over and we will find a happy compromise without the mess of having a war. Ukraine's main lesson is that compromise doesn't work.

Consider Germany? Actually assess the threat to Germany. Is Russia going to sweep thru Poland and invade Germany (obviously Belarus would let them pass)? No. They can't even take Ukraine, and that's right next door.

Germany's not quite as isolated as we are from any current threats, but they're not in any imminent danger, due to having at least a bit of a buffer, and of course the whole "entirety of NATO backing them up". They, like us, largely can get away with needing to keep their forces strong enough to maintain NATO membership and to do whatever foreign policy stuff they want to do abroad.

They don't actually need to hold off Russia single-handedly.

And, of course, given Russia's performance this year, they probably could anyways.

 

[Dana381]

Consider Germany? Actually assess the threat to Germany. Is Russia going to sweep thru Poland and invade Germany (obviously Belarus would let them pass)? No. They can't even take Ukraine, and that's right next door.

Germany's not quite as isolated as we are from any current threats, but they're not in any imminent danger, due to having at least a bit of a buffer, and of course the whole "entirety of NATO backing them up". They, like us, largely can get away with needing to keep their forces strong enough to maintain NATO membership and to do whatever foreign policy stuff they want to do abroad.

They don't actually need to hold off Russia single-handedly.

And, of course, given Russia's performance this year, they probably could anyways.

True but Germany didn't know how bad Russia was when they were letting their military be hollowed out. Russia surprised everyone at how bad they really are.

Germany trusted Russia for almost all of their energy needs, you don't do that and arm against them at the same time.

 

[btrudy]

True but Germany didn't know how bad Russia was when they were letting their military be hollowed out. Russia surprised everyone at how bad they really are.

Germany trusted Russia for almost all of their energy needs, you don't do that and arm against them at the same time.

Sure, because Germany didn't see Russia as a threat to themselves.

Perhaps a threat to overall regional stability or peace, but not an existential threat.

Did they just get lucky in that regard? I would argue no. Even the worst case scenario, back when we still thought Russia was big strong bear, Russia invading Germany just wasn't in the cards.

 

[Czech_pivo]

True but Germany didn't know how bad Russia was when they were letting their military be hollowed out. Russia surprised everyone at how bad they really are.

Germany trusted Russia for almost all of their energy needs, you don't do that and arm against them at the same time.

I disagree - people closed their eyes and actively chose not to understand how bad Russia was.

Any individual with a brain, including Germans with a brain, who read/watched/understood the news knew that Russia and VVP were bad actors - simply look at how many ex-Russian spies were murdered or had attempted murder occur on UK soil, including their children, at how many Russian dissidents were murdered, jailed or 'fell' out of windows and the wars/annexations that occured in Chechnya, in Georgia, at the Moscow apartment bombings, etc, etc, etc.

People chose to close their eyes and say, 'it's not happening to me or my family or my friends and therefore is doesn't matter'.......

 

[Dana381]

I disagree - people closed their eyes and actively chose not to understand how bad Russia was.

Any individual with a brain, including Germans with a brain, who read/watched/understood the news knew that Russia and VVP were bad actors - simply look at how many ex-Russian spies were murdered or had attempted murder occur on UK soil, including their children, at how many Russian dissidents were murdered, jailed or 'fell' out of windows and the wars/annexations that occured in Chechnya, in Georgia, at the Moscow apartment bombings, etc, etc, etc.

People chose to close their eyes and say, 'it's not happening to me or my family or my friends and therefore is doesn't matter'.......

To clarify I meant how unable the Russian military is. Your right everyone knew they were bad people.

Sorry for the confusion. My choice of words could have been better.

 

[KevinB]

To clarify I meant how unable the Russian military is. Your right everyone knew they were bad people.

Sorry for the confusion. My choice of words could have been better.

Unable isn’t a word I would use.
Let’s face it, they tried a high risk, high reward strategy at the beginning without any of the enablers. That isn’t really an issue of the Russian Army, but the Command Guidance, and Intelligence they based it on.

Secondly, they ran into the 2nd largest European Army, that was backed by western support.

Russia could have rolled any other Army in Europe - and if they followed their standard Russian doctrine with fires from the start would probably be in Lviv now.

 

[Kirkhill]

A couple of points:

First: don't blame Justin Trudeau. He's just doing what most Canadians have wanted done for the past half century.

Political parties, Conservative, Liberal and NDP and all the others poll assiduously, and they ask good questions, too, because they really do want to know what Canadians think. Why do you think that Pierre Poilievre doesn't talk a lot about doubling the defence budget and getting serious abut global peace and security? The answer is because CPC pollsters have heard, loud and clear, from Canadians, that it is NOT an issue. Support for increased national defence is on about the same level as support for more symphony orchestras and ballet companies and increased MPs' pensions.​

​

It doesn't matter why Canadians think that way; the simple fact is that they do ... and they have done since before 1970.​

​

In the last 1940s Louis St Laurent gave a speech at the University of Toronto in which he laid out a plan for Canada to adopt a leadership role - politically, diplomatically, economically and militarily - in the world. It secured broad general public support for a number of reasons -​

​

1. We had just come out of a huge and costly war and most people understood that it could have been prevented by bold action;​

2. Canada was looking forward to a fairly bright economic future; and​

3. Although this was slightly after Kennan's 'long telegram,' St Laurent, himself, and many Canadian opinion makers - including the media - were now worried about Soviet aims and aggression.​

​

The Canadian Political Landscape was different in the late 1940s. Canadians had come out of the Great Depression and the Second World War is remarkably good form. The country was confident. Even though the Liberal Party was old and tired, St Laurent, who became prime minister in 1948, was popular with both the general public and the media and he seemed fresh and very, very able. That's all changed.​

​

It began to change in the mid 1960s. The welfare state was growing, world-wide. St Laurent had been a very cautious fiscal conservative and Canada was actually lagging behind many Western nations, including the USA and especially Scandinavia, in implementing a welfare state. Canadians wanted to spend less on defence and more own themselves.​

​

If you want to blame some it should be Pierre Trudeau, not his son, because he understood what Canadians wanted and he offered it to them, lock, stock and barrel.​

Second: don't blame the media. It, also, is just giving Canadians what they want.

The media is a consumer driven service. The media - print, TV, radio and the Internet - "sell" eyes and ears to advertisers. If the media doesn't give Canadians what they want to see, hear and read then they will look/listen elsewhere and advertisers will follow.​

​

Canadians are uninterested in defence, despite the War in Ukraine and despite the Rise of China and so on for a whole bunch of reasons that others have mentioned but, mainly, because they have been led to believe that they live under the American security umbrella, even though many experts have explained that isn't true.​

If you want to blame someone, it needs to be someone like your spouse or your parents or your siblings or your neighbours. They all expect to have an efficient and effective military force but they don't want to spend any more than they do now - and preferably less - to get it.

The Public's Canadian Armed Forces

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Public's Canadian Armed Forces

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You forgot headline grabbers like:

2021: A year of investigations into alleged military sexual misconduct​

2021: A year of investigations into alleged military sexual misconduct

The Canadian military spent 2021 grappling with sexual misconduct investigations of its highest ranking members, deepening the call for a complete internal culture shift. CTVNews.ca has compiled a timeline of investigations launched by the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service (CFNIS)...

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The Public's Canadian Armed Forces

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Perception vs Reality:

 

[Kirkhill]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Does the public ignore military matters because the media doesn't cover it and politicians don't campaign on it, or do the media and the politicians not focus on it because the public doesn't care?

I would argue the latter. And honestly, I can't blame them. Canada is lucky, given that we're geographically removed from any reasonable threat; our only real neighbor (sorry Greenland, but you don't really count) is both our closest ally and the world's only remaining superpower.

Sure, on paper our priorities are the defence of the country first, and all the other stuff we do comes later. But in actuality, in terms of what we actually do? Foreign policy through adventures abroad and domestic disaster relief. Because we don't actually have any existential threats knocking on our door.

Unless the nukes start getting lobbed, in which case we don't really have anything to counter that anyways, so ... ¯\(ツ)/¯

Canada doesn't focus on national defence because Canada doesn't really need to focus on national defence. We could almost entirely drop the ball, and still be safe. We just wouldn't be able to exert as much influence abroad as we currently do. Which is again also something that Canadians aren't all that interested in.

Greenland is more important to the US than Canada is.

Russia owns everything on the other side of the North Pole, from 168 W to 30 E.

The US covers our left flank all the way up to the North Pole - Alaska. It also covers our right flank all the way up to the North Pole - Greenland. The rest of the Right Flank is well covered by the UK, Norway and Denmark, with an assist from Iceland. Our portion of the front facing Russia is literally vanishingly small - the sole point of contact is the North Pole itself.

 

[Kirkhill]

Perception vs Reality:

No argument here but....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/medak-battle-soldiers-awarded-medal-1.302445

The Canadian Government, especially of the Liberal variety, is just as happy to deploy Secret Squirrels and the Silent Service.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

No argument here but....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/medak-battle-soldiers-awarded-medal-1.302445

The Canadian Government, especially of the Liberal variety, is just as happy to deploy Secret Squirrels and the Silent Service.

It doesn't even have to be secret squirrels. There are things many people, on this board included, will never be allowed to talk about.

Some of these are stories that should be told and Canadians would be immensely proud if they knew but they never will.

 

[Kilted]

No argument here but....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/medak-battle-soldiers-awarded-medal-1.302445

The Canadian Government, especially of the Liberal variety, is just as happy to deploy Secret Squirrels and the Silent Service.

That was just the Liberal government of the day being ashamed of our soldiers being soldiers.

 

[Halifax Tar]

That was just the Liberal government of the day being ashamed of our soldiers being soldiers.

Kind of like a CBC radio host who is shocked to hear a military is for killing people and breaking stuff.

 

[GK .Dundas]

I really doubt political party would have mattered. Even the Medak pocket. Our politics dating back to the war of 1812 pretty much ment the response was all but preordained .
And yes, I am a cynic.

 

[Kirkhill]

I really doubt political party would have mattered. Even the Medak pocket. Our politics dating back to the war of 1812 pretty much ment the response was all but preordained .
And yes, I am a cynic.

Harper of 2006 was one man. Harper of 2011 was another. Experience changes everyone.

 

[OldSolduer]

Russia could have rolled any other Army in Europe - and if they followed their standard Russian doctrine with fires from the start would probably be in Lviv now.

Possibly if they had followed Soviet doctrine. Overwhelming artillery - the norm was 1 gun per metre of frontage on the main effort. I don't know if that was achievable but even 25% of that would have been down right uncomfortable.