Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[dimsum]

I mean are you surprised?

I am not.

But yeah there is a lot of waste.

That is some British-level understatement there

 

[Good2Golf]

But yeah there is a lot of waste.

So more like a net 3.1-3.2% of GDP?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Edited to add: The Space thing blows my mind. There are the 5 separate Space components (one for each service), the US Space Force, and then US Space Command, which are all different things.

They have Police Agency Envy.

 

[RangerRay]

Congress is forcing the services to transfer the Space positions to Space Force.

I’m guessing all those positions are fighting going to Space Force because they don’t want to wear those fugly uniforms…

 

[KevinB]

I’m guessing all those positions are fighting going to Space Force because they don’t want to wear those fugly uniforms…

It's actually more related to wanting something out of Satellites that they don't think they are going to get from a larger parent --
1) The Army tends to look at the fact they have armed helicopter because the USAF doesn't want to do ground support stuff.
2) The USAF has Security Forces as the Army doesn't want to provide soldiers to look after aircraft that won't do ground support.
3) The USMC tends to distrust everyone and duplicated all efforts because everyone else ignores them.
4) The Navy well they do Navy stuff
5) SOCOM knows the other services are so fucked up, if they want something done they will do it themselves...

and there is justification for a whole lot of shit in DoD - not just the Space aspect.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It's actually more related to wanting something out of Satellites that they don't think they are going to get from a larger parent --
1) The Army tends to look at the fact they have armed helicopter because the USAF doesn't want to do ground support stuff.
2) The USAF has Security Forces as the Army doesn't want to provide soldiers to look after aircraft that won't do ground support.
3) The USMC tends to distrust everyone and duplicated all efforts because everyone else ignores them.
4) The Navy well they do Navy stuff
5) SOCOM knows the other services are so fucked up, if they want something done they will do it themselves...

and there is justification for a whole lot of shit in DoD - not just the Space aspect.

 

[FJAG]

I’m obviously not sure how it worked out before unification, but getting rid of IRMC just pushes the problem right, no?

Each L1 staffs up their needs to…somewhere and they get approved. But at some point, some organization (TB or other) will have to say “we have the $ for this, but not that”. With IRMC, which is presumably DND-internal, the rack-and-stack is at a lower level than having to get to the point of TB, just to essentially be racked-and-stacked at the Govt level.

I could be totally wrong though.

Unless I'm mistaken, in days of yore, each of the services received its own budget from the government.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Unless I'm mistaken, in days of yore, each of the services received its own budget from the government.

There was a political appointment of Secretary for the RCN, reported to MND at least until 1961. The RCN had control over its budget at that time. I assume the other service branches were the same.

 

[McG]

Brooke Claxton brought the services under a single budget before the Korea War was done.

 

[dapaterson]

Brooke Claxton brought the services under a single budget before the Korea War was done.

Boy, that family has been nothing but trouble for defence.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Canadians are proud of the CAF, but as with most other areas of public expenditure, are not willing to pay for it.

Again it comes down to Canadians being some of the cheapest SOB's in the world. Wanting everything for free and never wanting to pay or tip for any service.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Again it comes down to Canadians being some of the cheapest SOB's in the world. Wanting everything for free and never wanting to pay or tip for any service.

We come by it honestly from the Mother Country e.g., Reservists could now get Army pension following 'major' win in landmark case

 

[MacNav63]

There was a political appointment of Secretary for the RCN, reported to MND at least until 1961. The RCN had control over its budget at that time. I assume the other service branches were the same.

I could very well be wrong but I had understood the position of Secretary of the RCN to have been their pre-integration equivalent of the JAG in the CA.

 

[Loachman]

It’d be nice if someone told the CPC that earlier this year.

Yes - everybody should follow the basic rules.

I have little faith that that would actually result in an improvement, though, as humans are involved.

 

[ytz]

Well, that's sad.

We have less leverage already.

See, ytz?

Those were moved a long time ago. Pretty much after the initial batch. And that happened while/after we had people dying in Afghanistan. The idea that the Americans are going to make concessions on jobs (usually driven by intra-state/local interests in the US) is very specious. Take longstanding issues like softwood lumber. How long has that been going? Can anybody quantify what level of defence spending or Canadians killed in combat are necessary for the US to drop that trade dispute?

Health is NOT a federal responsibility. National Defence most definitely IS.

The delivery of health services is not a federal responsibility. But public health certainly is. See the s.91 clause about maintenance of quarantine hospitals. That said the feds don't deliver health services. They contribute a certain percentage of funding in exchange for adherence to a national standard of care/service. I am not sure that can be interpreted as "a federal responsibility" per se.

We do NOT live in a "democracy". We live in a Constitutional Monarchy.

Each level of government has its distinct powers, responsibilities, and limitations.

The federal government should NOT be overstepping its powers, responsibilities, and limitations by interfering with provincial/territorial powers and responsibilities through bribery or coercion. We would be better off if each managed its own affairs and not others'.

You guys can go on and on about how you wish government was structured in Canada. But at the end of the day, it's not a widely shared view among Canadians. And any party that pushed the view you suggest (say dismantling the Canada Health Act completely) would quickly find out what a fringe view that really is. Arguing that people who live in poorer provinces should get shittier healthcare is hardly going to be the way to convince the public that more should be spent on defence. That is a zero sum argument that we will always lose (and historically have a straight record of losing).

 

[ytz]

The Space thing blows my mind. There are the 5 separate Space components (one for each service), the US Space Force, and then US Space Command, which are all different things.

I got some exposure on an exchange PGT to US Space just before the USSF stand up. They were badly organized for the future as each service was basically focused on operationalizing space assets just as support assets and actual space operations were mostly focused on just doing enough for asset protection. Not actually dominating the domain. This is where USSF and Space Command is different. USSF is the Force Generator. Space Command is the Force Employer with a mandate to dominate the domain. Eventually all the services will have a space branch but those will be essentially user functions largely focused on receiving space services and translating/transmitting their requirements to the USSF. Think of it kinda like how you have an ACE at each of our brigades. Incorporating space into ops means there has to be domain awareness and liaisons in the 3 shop at the operational level (Div, Corps, Amphib group) and sometimes at the tactical level (Wing/Brigade).

 

[FSTO]

You guys can go on and on about how you wish government was structured in Canada. But at the end of the day, it's not a widely shared view among Canadians. And any party that pushed the view you suggest (say dismantling the Canada Health Act completely) would quickly find out what a fringe view that really is. Arguing that people who live in poorer provinces should get shittier healthcare is hardly going to be the way to convince the public that more should be spent on defence. That is a zero sum argument that we will always lose (and historically have a straight record of losing).

Canadians bitch and moan most about the state of services they get locally, but are not willing to go out and vote for the city and municipal councils that most affect their lives. Then they bitch and moan about the lack of talent in their municipal governments that are seeming incapable of delivering those services.

Just an observation.

 

[MacNav63]

Canadians bitch and moan most about the state of services they get locally, but are not willing to go out and vote for the city and municipal councils that most affect their lives. Then they bitch and moan about the lack of talent in their municipal governments that are seeming incapable of delivering those services.

Just an observation.

This! Turn out for local elections is typically abysmal, which has the unfortunate side affect of making it very possible for very narrow special interests to exert influence their numbers might not otherwise warrant. There's no getting away from the fact that the government that delivers the services I use every day is my municipality. Of course municipalities are creatures of the provincial governments that create them which do not I think have any interest in strengthening their popular mandates.

As for the federal-provincial split, I'm not looking to create (or reinforce) haves vs have nots. But one of the problems with our current system is that it has the effect of divorcing the way taxes are spent from the voters who pay them (I know, there is only one taxpayer). And that's not just an issue with equalization payments. It applies accross the board, including Canada Health Transfers which go to all provinces. So the province of Ontario makes certain decisions about how it will pend those transfers but isn't accountable to the taxpayer in Nova Scotia who contributed to them, and vice versa.

At the same time, the federal government avoids adequately investing in those areas for which it is very clearly responsible, like Defence. Even when it comes to health care, it does have a direct responsibility for First Nations' health care but I don't think anyone would argue they're doing that particularly well either.

We will probably always need to have some form of equalization payments to even things out but for the rest I'd rather see the feds transfer tax points to the provinces and have both levels of government focus first on doing well those things that are their exclusive responsibilities.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I could very well be wrong but I had understood the position of Secretary of the RCN to have been their pre-integration equivalent of the JAG in the CA.

Probably, not sure. I’m going from memory on what Landymore wrote in Thunder and Sunshine, where he had epic battle with SecNav who actually supported integration of the RCN and positioning Air Command to take over navy flight operations and that budget relieved from RCN control.

 

[FJAG]

I could very well be wrong but I had understood the position of Secretary of the RCN to have been their pre-integration equivalent of the JAG in the CA.

Somewhere in the past I read the JAG's history but don't have it now, but I think that whatever powers the Secretary of the RCN had were not the same as the JAG. The RCN, which had been under different legislation and different departments (eventually the Department of Naval Services), than the Militia were combined with the RCAF (then under the Air Board) into a Department of National Defence in 1922.

There had been a JAG with the Militia since 1911. In 1918 steps were taken to create a legal branch of the Department of Militia and Defence. The first JAG responsible for all three services was LCol Reginald Orde (a gunner and Canada's third JAG) from 1920 to 1950 (much of the time by himself with no staff.)

While there was an overarching Department of National Defence, there were also separate Militia, Naval Services and Royal Canadian Air Force Acts until all were combined in the National Defence Act of 1950. This act introduced the concept of a "Canadian Forces" and also created the first common Code of Service Discipline.

I do not doubt that the secretary of the Navy would have had some quasi-legal authority. The MND did until those functions were removed post-Somalia. But they would not equate to the JAG. But, during those early years many of the functions which we now associate with the legal branch were carried out by line officers of the three services.