Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[markppcli]

Which is completely fine, I don't expect anyone to agree completely on anything. That type of constructive tension is what the CAF needs more of.

Cheers

Yes we hire based off intakes but the time it takes from application to trained soldier/sailor/airmen from entry to OFP is WAY TOO LONG. We aren't building rocket scientists here.

Training establishments aren't going to grow in size and it's a fools errand to think it will. What we can control is the velocity of throughput for our school houses.

I think there is a lot of fat that could be shaved off QSTPs in many different programs.

Why can’t training establishments grow, or at least be fully manned.

I will use Air Assault School as an example:

It's 12 days long. Days are 18 hour days each and time usage is maximized. They squeeze a lot of information in to a very small window of time with Ex Checks built in throughout. They put 150+ candidates through the course with 8 instructors. If the CAF ran a similar course, it would be 6+ weeks long, 8 to 4 coffee course with weekends off. It would be capped at 30 students and would have have 8 instructors, a couple of storesman, a Course Warrant Officer and a Platoon Comd because the CAF always needs an Officer.

It also teaches you two things - rappelling and sling loads. It’s a waste of everyone’s time.

US Army course can have those ratios because they employ a series of specialist sections to teach tasks - ie the weapons classes are taught by the weapons instructors and it’s a whole different crew. I’d be curious if when that was all added up what the is try to studen ratio actually looked like.

Not saying we can’t cut time out of courses but I think the student instructor ratio is the wrong tree to bark up.

 
CAF IT across the board is boutique in nature goes with the most expensive option. Now I will admit that the product at the other end is very proficient technically speaking but how much value are we getting for what we are spending?

I've been to many different training establishments around the globe and seen how our partners do things and ours is not the only RIGHT way.
 

Agreed, it’s also not the worst way.

There will always be a need to have School Houses simply to teach advanced skillsets and courses.

Disagree. The Army could learn from the Navy in this regard. The Navy has been doing it for years...

NEP aren’t going straight to ships so apparently they haven’t been.

FDU & NTOG are rather small units that manage to generate very capable teams continuously for operations while also running school houses and serving as centres of excellence for their respective skillsets.
 

Who said anything about integrating them in to rifle companies? Separate entity contained within the Battalion it self.

Well you did when you related it to being on ships - ie part of the operational “crew”

Company X is going to the range today... Recruit Bloggins and their Section in training will also be accompanying them to do some shooting.

IPSWQ is running... Training Section will also be doing the shoot.

The Reserves have been training people this way for decades. There will be a need at times to consolidate for CT but this could also be managed at the Brigade Level. It would help tremendously if we didn't have a bunch of paper units at half strength in all our formations.

I frankly fail to see the difference. In one model soldiers are training at a training center through a specific program, and when they’re ready they join line units. In the other they stay in a training company until they’ve hit a series of bench marks and move to a line company. Six of one half a dozen of the other. One however will be more stream lined.

The reserves does not train people this way. They hold people
In training platoon sure, but it’s a localized PAT platoon until they can go on course. They don’t have peopel
Drop in here and there and tick off POs.

There are a lot of ways to skin this cat. This would also cut down on superfluous cost moves and relocations around the Country.

This is agree on, less Mega more one station training.

CN actually has their own School. All training is conducted there and their model is more in line with the CAF.

CN Campus
+1 844-872-4626

CN Campus - Google Search

It's World Class:

We have a similar setup in Calgary but mostly only run advanced courses there and do things slightly differently. Both methods have advantages and disadvantages.



Yes, the Air Force runs the best program IMO. The Navy needs to divest Ships and HQ Bloat and put the people it does have to better use.

We need a standing Army simply to maintain certain functions and a general purpose combat capability.

Special Operations Forces should be expanded.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

@markppcli the Navy also integrates trainees in to all depts on Ships. Now they have to have a few baseline courses:

Firefighting, Sea Survival, etc but trainees get given a package when they arrive on Ship. They are employed to their skillsets but work on their package to reach OFP during their first tour.

The Army and Navy train people far differently. I like portions of both methods.

I've personally sailed with a bunch of trainees on board. Was this Ship on Ops? No, but we had just got back from a deployment and what better way to teach the new people than have them with a Ship's Coy that just finished a deployment.

The only thing we were pissed about was the Navy cut our post-deployment leave short to Force Generate. That was wrong but that speaks to how stupid this organization is at times.

My brother had had NEP pers onboard his Ship. They were given a condensed BMQ and sent aboard.

 

[FSTO]

My brother had had NEP pers onboard his Ship. They were given a condensed BMQ and sent aboard.

My GF's boy is NEP and is just ending week 4 at CFLRS. i think they reach half way next week so its a 9 week BMQ. Then off to Halifax (his choice) to do NETP and maybe NBP training if there isn't a ship immediately available.

 

[Quirky]

CN actually has their own School. All training is conducted there and their model is more in line with the CAF.

CN Campus
+1 844-872-4626

CN Campus - Google Search

It's World Class:

That’s impressive and shows a company has their shit together, unlike many run-down 1000 year old hangars converted into schools.

 

[dimsum]

The former CDS seems to think differently:

Canada 'just can’t get around' army cuts, Hillier says

The Canadian Forces “just can’t get around” the need to reduce the number of full-time soldiers in order to maintain a well-trained, capable army while meeting the demand for a slimmed-down budget, retired general Rick Hillier says.

www.ctvnews.ca

Personnel expenses are your biggest capital line item (roughly 60%) and are what you have the most control over.

If you want the fancy new gear, the money needs to come from somewhere. Many personnel are not gainfully employed at the moment.

CAF needs way less tail, way more tooth.

View attachment 83612

I mentioned in another thread but the numbers are off for the ADF - they have 219 Reg F GOFOs and something like 250 Reserve GOFOs for 55000 total pers.

Not sure about the USMC.

 

[Halifax Tar]

He totally is... I was just shocked to hear it from a GO/FO...

FDU & NTOG are rather small units that manage to generate very capable teams continuously for operations while also running school houses and serving as centres of excellence for their respective skillsets.

Lets not get crazy now. FDU perhaps; but I could debate this as well, but NTOG ? Why do we even still have them ?

 Yes, the Air Force runs the best program IMO. The Navy needs to divest Ships and HQ Bloat and put the people it does have to better use.

We need a standing Army simply to maintain certain functions and a general purpose combat capability.

Special Operations Forces should be expanded.

A small standing army of technicians and mechanics to keep things going and the lights on, but Just them and some SOF is all we really need. We really have no use for expeditionary land forces, and what we have would be better used for arctic and other territorial defence taskings.

We would be much better off putting our eggs in the Air and Sea forces baskets. Leave the expeditionary work to the RCN and RCAF. Pushing and guarding shipping lanes.

I've debated this many times here, you wont move me on it.

My GF's boy is NEP and is just ending week 4 at CFLRS. i think they reach half way next week so its a 9 week BMQ. Then off to Halifax (his choice) to do NETP and maybe NBP training if there isn't a ship immediately available.

Correct NEP folks do the same basic training as everyone else. They do Basic, then NETP and then they have a package to get signed off that takes them through all the different trades and units, shore and sea, in the RCN.

 

[CountDC]

administrative jobs we can outsource to civi's to free up PYs for other duties. I agree we do not have enough people in the right places.

Yeah because outsourcing them has always worked for us. How's that ERC going so we can advance this enrolment? Still waiting, it's only been 4 months, usually takes 6. I remember when that came up while in Ottawa. Nice young officers floated the idea to cut the clerks and hire civilians instead. Kinda of went astray when we asked when so we could transition over and not have to work evenings and weekends when they decided they absolutely needed the report they had dragged their heals on done.

 

[MilEME09]

Yeah because outsourcing them has always worked for us. How's that ERC going so we can advance this enrolment? Still waiting, it's only been 4 months, usually takes 6. I remember when that came up while in Ottawa. Nice young officers floated the idea to cut the clerks and hire civilians instead. Kinda of went astray when we asked when so we could transition over and not have to work evenings and weekends when they decided they absolutely needed the report they had dragged their heals on done.

So then ask your self is it not working because of outsourcing it self, or a lack of accountability?

 

[quadrapiper]

This is agree on, less Mega more one station training.

Would a training platoon/company/regimental or brigade training depot/whatever delivering DP1 colocated with the units offer any useful cooperative training opportunities?

 

[PuckChaser]

We would be much better off putting our eggs in the Air and Sea forces baskets. Leave the expeditionary work to the RCN and RCAF. Pushing and guarding shipping lanes.

Nelson called, he wants his 18th century "ships rule the world" era back.

We could triple the RCN and still be essentially useless and tied to the USN. We are not and will not ever be a force projection Navy nor will we guard anything other than our own coasts or token single ship deployments glued in as a curious little brother to NATO or USN fleets.

 

[markppcli]

Would a training platoon/company/regimental or brigade training depot/whatever delivering DP1 colocated with the units offer any useful cooperative training opportunities?

Probably not, that’s essentially what we do now with DP being out at various schools. We take a recruit and fly them to Montreal, then fly them to a training g centre to wait for a course to start, then after a month or two they start their course to be posted to a unit. I think we achieve greater efficiency and streamlining by doing precisely the opposite and moving our training to a centralized one stop shop model. That way we fly the recruit to training, and then to their unit with less waiting on Pat and fewer dollars on travel while maintain critical mass to keep courses going and not adding work load to operational units.

 

[Furniture]

Nelson called, he wants his 18th century "ships rule the world" era back.

We could triple the RCN and still be essentially useless and tied to the USN. We are not and will not ever be a force projection Navy nor will we guard anything other than our own coasts or token single ship deployments glued in as a curious little brother to NATO or USN fleets.

You also seem to forget that NATO fleets consist of member countries contributing a ship or two. If the RCN had 20-30 CSCs in Halifax, we could dispatch more than a couple of ships to NATO TGs. This would enable other NATO allies to concentrate more on land forces in Europe, where any NATO conflict would actually occur.

I don't share @Halifax Tar's extreme view of "cutting the CA", but a smaller standing army with a much larger RCN and RCAF would actually benefit our allies more regularly.

 

[dimsum]

Nelson called, he wants his 18th century "ships rule the world" era back.

However, even in this day and age, warships still do have an impact. You can’t keep aircraft on station over an area for too long without a replacement, but you can park a naval task group outside a hotspot for a while, obviously with resupply at some point.

The distance outside said hotspots can be pretty far too, since many warships can laugh Tomahawk or equivalent cruise missiles.

Then there are the carriers.

 

[FJAG]

The former CDS seems to think differently:

Two points - 1) that was 2014 when the defence budget was $17B (1% GDP) - it's gone to $27B (1.3% GDP). That's a big differences; and 2) he said "full-time soldiers." I tend to agree - cut the full-time bureaucracy that is DND, reduce the RegF to a solid quick reaction force and a solid cadre and improve the part-time force. You'll save bunches of money.

But no. A thousand excuses will be voiced about why a part-time force won't work.

 

[FJAG]

That’s because we have one guy doing ID cards nationally. We need more people doing that not less. I agree we have assume dysfunctions, but we are running into problems because we are lacking enough people in those support functions.

They can turn out passports faster than that. ID cards aren't magical. Take a photo at the recruiting centre - after that the process can be fully automated. The CAF is a process-bound institution. Many of them can be streamlined. Some can be completely thrown out. Fire half the lawyers as a starter and see how much simpler life becomes.

 

[FJAG]

administrative jobs we can outsource to civi's to free up PYs for other duties. I agree we do not have enough people in the right places.

PYs are based on money. Outsource the function and the salary money goes to the contractor. The PY isn't freed up; it's eliminated.

 

[quadrapiper]

They can turn out passports faster than that. ID cards aren't magical. Take a photo at the recruiting centre - after that the process can be fully automated. The CAF is a process-bound institution. Many of them can be streamlined. Some can be completely thrown out. Fire half the lawyers as a starter and see how much simpler life becomes.

Never really been sure why there isn't a card printer at each ID section. I'm sure they're expensive, but what's the value of getting rid of the hassle for the member, the process of mailing cards back and forth, and the NDI 10 craft project?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Nelson called, he wants his 18th century "ships rule the world" era back.

We could triple the RCN and still be essentially useless and tied to the USN. We are not and will not ever be a force projection Navy nor will we guard anything other than our own coasts or token single ship deployments glued in as a curious little brother to NATO or USN fleets.

They do. The worlds economy runs on ships at sea. Our (NATOs) ability fight any conflict will depend on ruling the North Atlantic, just like WW2. Any fight in Asia with China will be a Naval and Air war and any ground forces will depend on secure sea lanes to fight.

You can stick your head in the sand all you want, but Canada could provide more by being a bigger player at sea than anything we could do on land.

I also really like getting Army guys all wound up.

 

[FSTO]

They can turn out passports faster than that. ID cards aren't magical. Take a photo at the recruiting centre - after that the process can be fully automated. The CAF is a process-bound institution. Many of them can be streamlined. Some can be completely thrown out. Fire half the lawyers as a starter and see how much simpler life becomes.

My boss (a Class B like me) let his ID card expire (I laughed and laughed) and since most of NDHQ is now at Carling, he still had to go downtown to get it renewed. Can the process not be done at Carling as well as 101?

Then there is the whole Class B hiring process. It is so fubard, that is all I can say on the open board.

 

[KevinB]

I tend to agree - cut the full-time bureaucracy that is DND, reduce the RegF to a solid quick reaction force and a solid cadre and improve the part-time force. You'll save bunches of money.

But no. A thousand excuses will be voiced about why a part-time force won't work.

Apparently Canadian part timers aren’t as effective/efficient as American…