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JTF2 & AFG (merged)

George Wallace said:
The last thing Canadians or anybody needs is a bunch of media hungry politicians playing with people's lives so they can get a 10 second clip on the evening news.........
As has been pointed out before, there are some workings of government, Defence and Security that the public have no need, nor right to know.  How security forces conduct their operations are not "required public knowledge" and have no place in the public domain. 

I was going to post that it should be required reading for journalists, working professionally, teaching or studying to become a journalist, to read the Policy on Government Security.  Perhaps it would also be a good requirement for them to read the National Defence Security Policy and the National Defence Security Instructions as well.  There is no need for the public to know the minutest details of what security forces are doing to protect their safety.  This is where these media reports are looking like something out of WikiLeaks.

Like MJP, ERC and others here, I think it is good that Mr. Cudmore has dropped in to join the discussion, but we all must be cognisant that he is by profession a Reporter, and as such everything is "on the record".  There is no such thing as "off the record".


Security is an issue – for both the government and the public.

Before we can take any high-minded actions against those who break the rules we must ensure that:

1. The rules are sensible; and

2. They are being properly applied by the government.

When I served neither was true and I am about 99.99% sure not much, certainly not enough, has changed.

First problem: government security rules and military security are, broadly, incompatible. DND should be required to apply the general government security rulers to civil service business but military matters must be subject to military security rules – properly applied. That means more work for DND and CF members.

Second problem: too much information is 'classified' because it might be embarrassing or just difficult for the bureaucracy (uniformed and grey suited) to explain. It is hard impossible to blame e.g. the media for mistrusting us the CF and the bureaucracy when we they know we they are, improperly, hiding behind security rules because we they are either cowardly or lazy.

Third problem: we either lack or are afraid to apply a proper Official Secrets act: one with teeth that puts people in jail – no options - for possessing official secrets when they are not authorized to have them, and that puts military personnel and bureaucrats in jail for even longer and harsher sentences for improperly releasing or carelessly handling official secrets.
 
Special thanks to all those who offered a welcome (and also to those who offered a qualified welcome).
I'm more than happy to explain how things work inside the news biz where i can.
Tony:  the process is a bit of both.  sometimes it's  "here's the docs, have at em!"  other times it's more structured, negotiated even.  In the end, each reporter is responsible -- with the programs -- for their own report.  That's how we see different versions with different takes.
about your warning, yah, that's already on its way.  in a news manager's perfect world, you'd have a reporter with a video camera on his shoulder, a mic in his hand and a notebook in his pocket, gathering and filing his story for radio, tv, newsnet and the web.  And, he'd do it all before 5 pm.
in the end, we've learned that's just not possible.  there are too many clients, and not enough hours.  in addition, people have different skills.  some are better at radio, or better at print or better at live tv.  so that's a factor, too.
I've been a national print reporter, a national tv reporter and a national radio reporter.  so theoretically i can do all three.  I just can't do them all at the same time.










 
Edit** Looking into it.

I believe Denis Morisset is the guy who supplied your photos and he's the guy who wrote the book on JTF2 with all the unverifiable stories in it?

I'll look for the photos tonight. Ignore my rambling until I find the photos im talking about- sorry to sidetrack the thread.  :)
 
Well for example- the 5 photos on the website have this photo attached saying its a JTF2 soldier. You blurred his face out.

The interwebs say that its of an American at the Mangara cave complex in Afghanistan....they could be wrong I suppose.

That particular uniform type is popular with the SEAL's in Afghanistan. Its not impossible that a JTF2 guy would be wearing it I guess....other sites say that its ODA 342 which a American special operations detachment.

I hope you didnt buy these photos.

Such as these guys:

http://www.americanspecialops.com/photos/special-forces/green-berets-gmv.php

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Operational_Detachment_Alpha_3336,_3rd_Special_Forces_Group_(Airborne)_recon_Shok_Valley,_Afghanistan,_Dec._15,_2008.jpg

 
cudmore said:
GAP
about this:


short answer is yes, there is a word count.
In TV a news piece is generally less than 2 minutes. same is true for Radio. That includes room for no more than 360 words.  If there is sound, or raw video in the piece, than the number of words gets fewer.  if people pause, or use ums or ahs , in their clips, than the word count goes down again.
This is not really an excuse for lack of context, but it is often the reason why context is missing.
When i worked in the newspaper biz, a good strong lead story would typically run to about 1000 words.  The main story on an inside page was often about 800.  the smaller stories inside were around 4-500.  So, you can see that newspapers have more room for things like context and explanation.
But this two is changing.  the globe's redesign recently has shrunk the size of the newspaper's news hole.  that means, shorter stories,  which means less context.
The web, however, seems to be a different place:  stories for the web can theoretically be LONG.  But they're not.  the web people tell you that readership on stories declines if you have to click through to a second page.  also, people don't really like to scroll down a whole in order to read more of the story.  as a result, web stories seem to hit the 4-500 word mark as well.
This post – not including your quoted text – is 269 words.
now, none of this explains why we don't try harder to add context, so you make a good point.

Mr Cudmore

We crap all over younger members of the site for their poor use of the English language, spelling, punctuation, capitalization, grammar, etc.  You as a "professional" should be setting a better example.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Security is an issue – for both the government and the public.

Before we can take any high-minded actions against those who break the rules we must ensure that:

1. The rules are sensible; and

2. They are being properly applied by the government.

When I served neither was true and I am about 99.99% sure not much, certainly not enough, has changed.

First problem: government security rules and military security are, broadly, incompatible. DND should be required to apply the general government security rulers to civil service business but military matters must be subject to military security rules – properly applied. That means more work for DND and CF members.

Second problem: too much information is 'classified' because it might be embarrassing or just difficult for the bureaucracy (uniformed and grey suited) to explain. It is hard impossible to blame e.g. the media for mistrusting us the CF and the bureaucracy when we they know we they are, improperly, hiding behind security rules because we they are either cowardly or lazy.

Third problem: we either lack or are afraid to apply a proper Official Secrets act: one with teeth that puts people in jail – no options - for possessing official secrets when they are not authorized to have them, and that puts military personnel and bureaucrats in jail for even longer and harsher sentences for improperly releasing or carelessly handling official secrets.

First:  The major problem is "EDUCATION".  People have to be educated at all levels as to what the big deal really is. 

Second:  Another problem is people have to use the "Injury Test" when applying Security Classifications and Designations.  If they don't then things can 'go south' rather quickly. 

Those two would solve most of the problems you have outlined.
 
cudmore said:
in a news manager's perfect world, you'd have a reporter with a video camera on his shoulder, a mic in his hand and a notebook in his pocket, gathering and filing his story for radio, tv, newsnet and the web.  And, he'd do it all before 5 pm.  in the end, we've learned that's just not possible
It is being done in some media outlets.  How good is the result?  THAT's something that can fill a whole other thread.
 
Tony:  You've nailed the question precisely.

George: I have already been privately reprimanded about the quality of my capitalization and spelling.  I was, I admit, far too informal in simply jotting off my sloppy posts earlier.
But, thank you for taking the time to offer such a gentle rebuke in public.


 
On an older build of the story you featured this photo attached saying it was JTF2. Which is actually:

http://www.dodlive.mil/index.php/2010/01/photo-mountain-maneuver/

Again American Special Forces.

 
Thanks for the links on the photos, folks.
Yes, they were provided by Denis Morisett.
I think they are captioned that way on the CBC website. 

J
 
cudmore said:
Tony:  the process is a bit of both.  sometimes it's  "here's the docs, have at em!"  other times it's more structured, negotiated even.  In the end, each reporter is responsible -- with the programs -- for their own report.
So effectively, CBC is producing 3-4 reports based on the same meagre sources, with the same style of "catchy" shocking headlines seeking to grab an audience's attention.

Acknowledging your comment that most readers will not click onto a second page to get (potentially) more informed insights, have you not created a situation where your intellectually-dismal readership will proclaim, "I've just seen FOUR reports of 'JTF-2 wrong-doing'; they must be completely out of control!!" ?

Such duplicitous behaviour to spark "discussion" is a fine technique for Oprah, not for a self-proclaimed news service.

--------------------
Since we're expressing our thoughts on CBC......my homepage is CBC -- for local weather and a scan of the headlines but little else.

My top internet bookmarks are Army.ca  :-[  and Google.

The next two links are to sites where I get my daily world news: BBC and al-Jazeera (more balanced than one may think).

I used to believe that CBC provided a credible news service; now, sadly, they seem to be pandering to the lowest common denominator -- those folks who post the most inane comments following each news story. As such, I go elsewhere.
 
Mr Cudmore is Col (Ret) Drapeau on retainer? Scott Taylor? Amir Attaran? Steve Staples? I would like to know because they seem to be the only folks you interview lately. What has happened to Lew Mackenzie, Rear Admiral Summers and others?
Also on the topic of experts, I went to Col Drapeau law office website and saw his bio.  Here is the part regarding his career in the CF:
Prior to joining the legal profession, Col. Drapeau served 34 years in the Canadian military, retiring in 1993 as Director, National Defence Headquarters Secretariat as well as Secretary, Armed Forces Council.

He is a graduate of the CF Command and Staff College (Toronto); the U.S. Armed Forces Staff College, U.S. National Defence University (Norfolk, Virginia); the U.S. Army Military Comptrollership School (Indianapolis); and, the National Defence College (Kingston Ontario).

As far as I know the good Col was an Air Force Logistics officer. Now they do a very important job in regards to ensuring that Air Force Bases are properly supplied, but to have him commenting on Army combat operations is a little rich. I can assure you that there are quite a few retired Army Officers and senior NCM's who could give you a more pointed and realistic view of life outside of the wire.
As for Mr Staples, I wish your media compatriots would cease calling him a defence expert and call him what he his; a peace activist.
I really hope that you were not surprised by the cool reception you got when you first posted here. We have all seen the perceived hatched jobs your profession has done on ours. But we are not looking for ass kissers, we are expecting balance and facts in your reporting. Remember you are the conduit between two cultures that have a hard time understanding each other at the best of times and if your reporting is not correct and balanced you will make us pull the curtins even tighter.

Finally, if you came here hoping to get some info from current JTF operators, it will be a pretty fruitless search. As some one said previously none of them will be here blabbing about their time on ops.
 
FSTO said:
Mr Cudmore is Col (Ret) Drapeau on retainer? Scott Taylor? Amir Attaran? Steve Staples?...
...
As far as I know the good Col [Drapeau] was an Air Force Logistics officer. Now they do a very important job in regards to ensuring that Air Force Bases are properly supplied, but to have him commenting on Army combat operations is a little rich. I can assure you that there are quite a few retired Army Officers and senior NCM's who could give you a more pointed and realistic view of life outside of the wire.
As for Mr Staples, I wish your media compatriots would cease calling him a defence expert and call him what he his; a peace activist.


Actually, Col (ret'd) Drapeau was an Army LogO and was, I think it is fair to say, well regarded by his colleagues in that role.

I am with you, 100%, re: Mr. Staples. His knowledge of military and defence policy matters is rudimentary, at best. He is, as you say, a "peace activist" and is, therefore, a reliable, albeit ill-informed, anti-military voice. If Staples is on the screen I immediately switch channels because I know I am about to fed a load of ignorant codswallop. I can guarantee that others - some of whom I would call informed critics of defence policy - do the same; Staples = BS. I understand he is cheap and always available but he lowers the credibility of the CBC so long as the CBC continues to lie about who and what he is.

 
cudmore said:
George: I have already been privately reprimanded about the quality of my capitalization and spelling.  I was, I admit, far too informal in simply jotting off my sloppy posts earlier.
But, thank you for taking the time to offer such a gentle rebuke in public.

If it wasn't done, someone would whine and use you as an example of someone receiving favouritism when they are being corrected.  It would be counter productive not to correct you and abide by the Army.ca Conduct Guidelines that we so often point out to new members who insist on using poor written communications skills and MSN Speak.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Actually, Col (ret'd) Drapeau was an Army LogO and was, I think it is fair to say, well regarded by his colleagues in that role.

I am with you, 100%, re: Mr. Staples. His knowledge of military and defence policy matters is rudimentary, at best. He is, as you say, a "peace activist" and is, therefore, a reliable, albeit ill-informed, anti-military voice. If Staples is on the screen I immediately switch channels because I know I am about to fed a load of ignorant codswallop. I can guarantee that others - some of whom I would call informed critics of defence policy - do the same; Staples = BS. I understand he is cheap and always available but he lowers the credibility of the CBC so long as the CBC continues to lie about who and what he is.

Message received regarding Col Drapeau, find info was rather difficult. As an Army Log O he should have more knowledge of the requirements of the combat arms. That being said I would think that his battlefield experience is nowhere near the experience possessed by a Logistics Major today.
 
I think that every democratic country should unquestioningly have oversight over all elements of their governments, including the military. Special forces elements of the military are no exception.  Due to the nature of the special forces' operations (and those of other government organizations such as CSIS, RCMP, NRC Comms, CSE, etc...), however, the legislative oversight function itself, while necessarily separate from DND, should be conducted in strict accordance with the Government's established security policies, particularly the Canadian Security of Information Act.

One need only review Sections 8 through 15 of the SIA to see that any disclosure (including for the purposes of partisan politicking and/or to curry favour with caucuses or selected groups within the electorate) of protected information or sensitive aspects of operations is not only inappropriate, but illegal and can result in prosecution under Federal Law.  Much of the information relating to CF special operations forces (JTF 2 and other elements) is designated as "special operational information" under Section 8 of the act, and for that reason must be accorded the proper protection by all members of the Government (executive, legislative, judicial and operational/functional).

Excerpt from the Canadian Security of Information Act (Sect. 8 - def'n "special operational information" - sub-para b) particular to military action, plans, etc..., military conflict being defined no further within the Act.)
“special operational information” means information that the Government of Canada is taking measures to safeguard that reveals, or from which may be inferred,

(a) the identity of a person, agency, group, body or entity that was or is intended to be, has been approached to be, or has offered or agreed to be, a confidential source of information, intelligence or assistance to the Government of Canada;
(b) the nature or content of plans of the Government of Canada for military operations in respect of a potential, imminent or present armed conflict;
(c) the means that the Government of Canada used, uses or intends to use, or is capable of using, to covertly collect or obtain, or to decipher, assess, analyse, process, handle, report, communicate or otherwise deal with information or intelligence, including any vulnerabilities or limitations of those means;
(d) whether a place, person, agency, group, body or entity was, is or is intended to be the object of a covert investigation, or a covert collection of information or intelligence, by the Government of Canada;
(e) the identity of any person who is, has been or is intended to be covertly engaged in an information- or intelligence-collection activity or program of the Government of Canada that is covert in nature;
(f) the means that the Government of Canada used, uses or intends to use, or is capable of using, to protect or exploit any information or intelligence referred to in any of paragraphs (a) to (e), including, but not limited to, encryption and cryptographic systems, and any vulnerabilities or limitations of those means; or
(g) information or intelligence similar in nature to information or intelligence referred to in any of paragraphs (a) to (f) that is in relation to, or received from, a foreign entity or terrorist group.

Something that I saw in the recent CBC interview (I believe if was MPs Bachand and Harris, but I can't recall exactly) concerned me though; their comment that they heard more about JTF 2 from American Congressional members than from their own Government.  As members of the Standing Committee on Defence, they should be informed of activities from the MND, HOWEVER, they must do so briefed and indoctrinated according to the SIA at the appropriate security level, and such indoctrination would preclude them from commenting openly to the media of the public on the material presented to them.  I think this may cause reasonable concern from those affected organizations that understand the need for transparency, but for whom their safety and security depends on appropriate discretion and protection of the information.  My second concern is that the MPs appeared to imply that the model of U.S. Congressional members informing their allied counterparts of the classified information of their own forces was appropriate.  I'd be very interested to know the official manner in which such disclosure of classified information, dealt with in accordance with the U.S. Official Secrets Act, was presented to members of a foreign government.  An example in the reverse would be if members of the Canadian defence and security oversight committee (potential future construct) learned of activities by say, 1st SFOD-D (Delta Force) or NSW DEVGRU ('Seal Team 6'), during a backbrief of JTF 2 activities, and then divulged this information to an American Congressperson...would this be appropriate? Perhaps there is a bilateral classified information sharing agreement between Canada and the U.S. -- I don't know, but it sounds kind of "less-than-fully-controlled", and if it were, would not such an agreement itself remain classified and thus would be something that a member of the Canadian committee should be divulging publically (referral back to concern by some of the overall understanding of appropriate actions regarding public disclosure of classified information)?

Overall, oversight is a critical function within a democratic system.  Canada is no exception to this.  The oversight agency, however, has the responsibility to treat such information in accordance with Canada's Security of Information Act, which would indicate that details of such matters would not be discussed publically without appropriate declassification of information having been affected.


On the issue of material regarding JTF 2 and any ongoing investigation, two policy bases keep serving members from commenting directly on the details of this issue:

1) CF members (less designated spokespersons) cannot comment on an ongoing investigation, and
2) CF members are prohibited from commenting on issues of capability, organization or activities, planned or current, of JTF 2, any other special operations forces elements of the CF or any other classified CF information.


Regards
G2G
 
That Mr Staples, and his colleague Michael Byers (see them together at the Rideau Institute, certainly no think tank, rather a pool of  usually suspect "progressive" advocates
http://www.rideauinstitute.ca/about.htm )
are regularly trotted out by our major media as "defence experts" is indeed a travesty as they both are agenda-driven individuals.  It is worth noting that those media never mention that Mr Staples runs the Ceasefire.ca website (they only mention the Rideau Institute) nor that Prof. Byers was a federal NDP candidate who lost at the last election.  Relying on them to provide journalistic "balance", esp. without fully identifying them, is simply disgraceful--and also shows on the part of the media a serious disregard for real fairness.

More on the two at Unambiguously Ambidextrous, with overlap:
http://unambig.com/tag/steve-staples/
http://unambig.com/tag/michael-byers/

Mark
Ottawa
 
Good2Golf, you raise some interesting points about oversight in a democratic country. I'm wondering about oversight procedures in other countries. I realize that the US has oversight committees in both the Senate and Congress, but is anyone aware about practices in other countries whose system of government is more akin to ours, such as Britain & the Commonwealth?
 
We have a Senate Committe on National Security and Defence, isn't that our civilian oversight? Or just a debating society for people with no idea what Defence is?
 
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