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Jessica L ynch's units training

Ack...I hate the term "warriors"!!!

We are professional soldiers, not some individuals seeking glory in combat!!!

The goal should be to ensure that all soldiers possess a fighting mentality and adhere to a professional ethos.
 
Infanteer said:
Ack...I hate the term "warriors"!!!

We are professional soldiers, not some individuals seeking glory in combat!!!

The goal should be to ensure that all soldiers possess a fighting mentality and adhere to a professional ethos.

Which, to me, is exactly what warrior means. It means(to me, anyway) the embodiment or personification of the values that make up the profession of arms, as opposed to a job-seeker or terrorist. A true warrior does not seek personal glory, and does not fight for bloodlust alone. However, I will admit that it is a rather subjective term and one we Canadians are perhaps not fully comfortable with.
 
Please do not jump down my throat for this as it is not my intention to get into a game of pokey chest.
For starters I agree with all that has been posted here ref training standards for CSS troops.As has been said to me many a time "solider first ,tech second" but to play devils adcovate I must point out one thing:
the more combat arms related training that CSS troops take,the less time we have to do our primary task of serving those who serve.We all would like to see a set standard of training,but none of us would like to see a drop in the skills or service provided.
I would just like to say again that I do agree with improved training standards and I know that a little training goes a long way,but if it was you who had to carry a broomstick into battle because the weapons shop was gone on a 1 month SQ refresher course,would'nd you be a bit miffed?
        Just playing devils advocate

Gun plumber: Having had the privelige of commanding Admin Coy/1PPCLI, I understand your concern 100%. I was often faced with resolving this very question:"rifles or wrenches". I had a secondary task of generating a QRF from Maint Pl: even though EME has most faithfully held to the idea of Soldier First (at least alot better than other MOCs) there were still some skill gaps that had to be overcome. The only way I see out of this is to scrap the "Lowest Common Denominator" CF purple recruit course, designate CSS pers as Army from the get-go, and give them a solid basic combat training based on what the USMC gives for all MOCs before specialization. In other words start training a soldier the second he walks in the door of the depot. Then, run all CSS courses with a heavy Army field flavour. Unfortunately, to truly achieve this would require us to more or less de-unify the CSS: a goal I am all for, but which might be traumatic for the CF. Cheers.

 
pbi said:
With respect to the issue of SQ, can somebody refresh me as to whether or not Regular Force CSS support MOCs go through that? I know that Reservists do, but I'm not certain about RegF. I rather think most RegF CSS MOCs go from BMQ to MOC trg, which would help to explain part of the problem.

It is certainly the intent that all CSS soldiers will do the SQ - it was supposed to start last year in Meaford and Farnham, but got delayed.  I think we are on track for this fall.  In the meantime, there is the Land Enironment Tactical Skills (I thinks that's what it stands for) or LETS that is run at the unit level.

pbi said:
Like others on this thread I have seen and had the pleasure to command some pretty impressive CSS soldiers.

I had the distinct honour of being OC Admin in 3 VP, during which time we re-roled from Light to Grizzly and did a PALLADIUM tour.  The Maintainers worked unbelievable hours - and still maintained a high level of fitness.  The QM worked equally long hours, stretched many rules on behalf of the Bn, all while maintaining a strong esprit de corps.  The transport guys ran course after course in the work ups, and then did stalwart duty in theatre keeping us moving.  The Med As (this is back when we owned them) worked just as hard as the Rifle Coys. 

Now all of that is to be expected - it is after all their job.  But on top of all of this, 3 VP had a strong "warrior" mentality.  Prior to deployment, all personnel, regardless of trade, were required to go through live fire pairs fire and movement.  The CSS soldiers relished the opportunity to practice and demonstrate their soldierly skills -- indeed the Maint boys progressed to section, and Transport to Platoon live fire.  Having said that, the CSM and I did a lot of pairs fire and movement, cus some were just too iffy to pair up with anyone else (think doctors and padres).

On STALWART GUARDIAN this year, we committed early in the process to each CSS soldier being given an opportunity to practice their tactical skills.  Early accounts asuggest that they enjoyed this challenge.

All of that to say that soldiers respond to the training environement and the ethos of a particular unit.  You can cultivate a warrior mentality in your unit, and if you do, soldiers being soldiers, they will respond.
 
All of that to say that soldiers respond to the training environement and the ethos of a particular unit.  You can cultivate a warrior mentality in your unit, and if you do, soldiers being soldiers, they will respond.

This is the crux of the whole thing right here. Its about attitude and belief, bolstered by confidence in good skills well taught. If we encourage the job seeker "i'm just a tech f**k this Army crap" mentality, well, we may reap what we have sown. If on the other hand we take ppcli guy's approach and apply it to the Army as a whole, regardless of MOC, then I believe we can make progress. Will we turn away some prospective recruits? I don't know, and I certainly don't know on what basis some of the doom-sayers so fervently maintain that this will be the case. I prefer to think that we will draw in the right sort of people from the start. Those that leave because it is "too Army" are liabilities anyway. As I have said before (I have never found repetition an obstacle to repetition.....) we are hamperd by the legacy mindset of Unification, a concept that was dreamed up in a long ago time, for primarily administrative reasons, in an era when the entire value of the combat soldier, indeed even of ground forces at all, was in serious question under the shadow of the mushroom cloud. It is time, IMHO, to relook this at least as far as the Army goes. Cheers.
 
pbi said:
If on the other hand we take ppcli guy's approach and apply it to the Army as a whole, regardless of MOC, then I believe we can make progress. Will we turn away some prospective recruits? I don't know,

This ties in to a post that you made in another thread about PT and the Reserves.  I believe that the vast majority of people that join the Army do so because they are looking for something different.  The problem arises when those expectations are not met right away.  When the recruit starts his trade training and is told that it is about the trade - we soldier when we get the chance, or when the recruit gets to the Armoury and doesn't do PT - that is when the trouble starts.  It basically comes down to our failure to properly inculcate (or socialise) recruits into the "Army way" of doing things.  I would suggest that this failure stems from our inability to articulate what the "Army way" is, both internally and externally.

In last years SORD, LGen Hillier made it clear that he wanted to adopt a mentality of "soldiers first".  The problem was that this slogan was not well explained.  It fell to subordinate formations to interpret his intent.  The statement could easily be interpreted to mean that the welfare of the men is paramount: Man Mission Self.  It could also be interpreted to mean that we are all soldiers first: Mission Man Self.  We chose the latter.  In our first cut at articulating Comd LFCA's vision of "soldiers first", we explained that it was fundamentally a problem of balancing "quality of life" with "quality of work".  I liked that one (and not just because I wrote it!), but it failed to capture the essence of the statement.  In the second iteration, the emphasis was on the fact that we are all soldiers first - fit, competent and disciplined.

If the Army as an institution truly understood this, it would view all problems through the lens of being soldiers first.  That would certainly provide some focus to our thinking, and go a long way towards establishing a warfighter mentality.
 
Which, to me, is exactly what warrior means. It means(to me, anyway) the embodiment or personification of the values that make up the profession of arms, as opposed to a job-seeker or terrorist. A true warrior does not seek personal glory, and does not fight for bloodlust alone. However, I will admit that it is a rather subjective term and one we Canadians are perhaps not fully comfortable with.

We had a thread that went into considerable detail on the notion of the warrior vs. the professional.   If you have the time in the interest, check it out here.   I reopened it and removed some superfluous posts if you're interested.

http://army.ca/forums/threads/18342.0.html

Basically, you're right.   The warrior term is for the most part used subjectively by people to fit their purpose.   My arguments attempt to aim for a more objective notion of the term "warrior" based upon historical fact; historical fact that show the professional consistently beating out the warrior.

Some aspects in history that are common to the idea of the warrior is:

1) No prisoners
2) Pillage of surrounding territory for "reward" to warrior class
3) Ossification of progress due to focus on ceremonial and cultural aspects of "warrior" (internally-focused) as opposed to focus on how to win at war as a means to further ones interests (externally-focused).
4) Fighting to the death or refusing to live when faced with failure (Japanese Generals regularly committed suicide following battlefield defeat - not conducive to maintaining a strong Officer Corps)
5) Disdain of those who are not members of the warrior class (this thinking is something that surfaces in modern soldiers who relish in calling themselves warriors)

It can be a bad road to go down if we follow the traditional notion of creating "warrior spirit".

I argue that we must aim to focus our soldiers on the profession of arms with the goal of every soldier being a fighting professional with the warfighting mentality.   PBI's recommendation of a common training for the purple trades in order to promote this mentality is something I agree with; I've advocated it in my own fashion around these pages before.   The fighting soldier seeks victory, not combat, and he achieves victory through executing his duties (whatever they may be; mechanic, doctor, or footsoldier), not engaging enemy "warriors".

Again, this is my interpretation of the term "warrior"; I base it on the historical context.   I just find that alot of the times the statement "we will inculcate the warrior spirit" is meant to refer to an effort to increase the capabilities (both mental and physical) of the professional soldier - which has no relation to the notion of a warrior.

Here is an excerpt from the linked thread that gives an overview of my position.   Enjoy.

I understand your admiration of a particular mindset dedicated to excellence, but you must understand that this mindset is one of dedication to excellence in the profession of arms

Your definition of the term warrior is a bit misplaced.   The "warrior" is traditionally defined as a subculture that dedicates itself solely to battle.   However, the warrior is an individual who places emphasis on personal ability and prowess in battle.   There are many aspects that typified the warrior in battle such as highly valued personal weapons, individual combate, and reliance on ferocity and fighting prowess over tactics.

Your impression of the warrior as the pinnacle of armed conflict is unfortunately misplaced.   The "warrior" lost his standing over two thousand years ago when the professional soldier picked up arms under their commanders and worked as a unit to overcome the individual warriors.   Two of the earliest examples in Western civilization is when the Greeks, particularly the Spartans, picked up arms as professionals and worked as an amorphous unit known as the phalanx, to defeat 10,000 of the Persian King's elite "Immortals".   To the Greek professionals, maintaining one's position within the phalanx in order to protect the man to his right with his large shield was the epitome of excellence in battle as opposed to breaking ranks to find personal glory in singular combat (something that was severely frowned upon).   That trend carried on in Western civilization when Celtic warriors were subdued by the professional soldier of Rome, the Legionnaire, who followed his NCO commander, the Centurion (Yes, setbacks against warrior cultures such as the German tribes were present, but this was no fault of their military system).

History is full of examples of the elite "warrior" finding his social position toppled by the professional soldier who was simply a better fighter due to the fact that they dedicated themselves to the profession of arms rather then to the glory of combat.   The Japanese Samurai warrior were shot to pieces in the 1800's when they tried to bring their quasi-religious form of ritual battle to the fore against industrialized forces; this is why the Samurai class outlawed the firearms in the 1600's following Oda Nobunaga's destruction of samurai armies with conscript levies wielding cheap firearms; it was a threat to their inefficient and less effective warrior culture.   As well, the constant battles between various Native American tribes and the United States Army in the 1800's also saw the Native warrior destroyed by the disciplined regular.   Napoleon's professional Army, in its conquest of Egypt, decimated the Mameluke's; a Islamic subculture that dedicated its members from birth to being warriors.   That belief fell to the discipline and shock of the Regiment of the Line.    You could find many more examples if you took the time to truly study the history of conflict.

Those characteristics that you mentioned in you inaccurate depiction of the warrior are actually the signs of the highest form of dedication as a soldier to the profession of arms.   Look at the characteristics of our soldiers in our Special Operations Capable unit (JTF-2), whom I would regard as the elite of the professional soldier in a modern army; these men are not warriors, they do not relish personal combat and glory for their subculture.   Rather, they are the epitomization of what we should strive for as professionals; they are experts on all technical fields related to the trade, their level of cohesion and teamwork is unmatched (they accomplish their missions as a team, if you didn't know that), and their dedication to their profession, up to the point of sacrificing their own life, is unrivaled (hence the reason they spend nearly all their time to preparation and training).
 
I posted to the "Warrior?" thread before reading this. Infanteer has said it better (though I might quibble an historical point or two.

That being said, I also agree with pbi's point about the "purple trade" concept being our primary problem with instilling "soldier first" in the CSS trades. There are many individuals in the CSS that are dedicated soldiers, but the institution overall is flawed.

Acorn
 
I am a big fan of the warrior idea - not so much with Infanteers historical concept of the idea - but in the fact that some have gotten the idea that soliders march around on a parade square and don't fight wars anymore.  The War fighter (warrior) ethos need to be reinstilled not only into the CSS trades but into the CF as a whole.

We have a discouragingly check the box mentality in the CF these days - this needs to change.  As my OC likes to say at the end of the day your job is to get up there - stick your bayonet into the enemies chest and let him bleed out (words to that effect).  I think lectures from Col Grossman should be mandatory for all soldiers - everyone should have come to grips with the fact that whatever trade they are they are in the Army and Armies are in the job of killing people.  that means everyone - from the lowest private all the way up top.  IMHO the new CQC course should be mandatory for all trades.

In Calgary in 1VP we used to conduct tri-weekly unarmed combat refreshers and cuminate in a Thursday Platoon bear pit matches for troops to get a day off (Friday) - It keep the lifeblood flowing and kept our agressiveness high.

Similarily our weapon training has got to come off the check the box attitude of the annual (or Bi-annual) PWT's  - it has to be fluid and the basis of killing the enemy.

 
Michael: I did look at the Warrior thread. Having reviewed the comments on it, I see that it is a very emotive term (as well it should be...) but has some negative historical connotations which you have ably enumerated. However, I for one believe that usage and meaning of words can change significantly over time ('gay" comes to mind...) and that we can adapt the idea of a warrior spirit to the constraints imposed on the professional soldier. Cheers.
 
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