Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying

[observor 69]

More on the same theme from  G&M.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/how-canadian-spy-jeffrey-delisle-betrayed-his-country-for-cash/article4601092/

 

[The Bread Guy]

From the CBC website.  Guess it answers my questions on what his career was worth.  Hope they throw the book at him.

....
While there he worked on a system called the Stone Ghost, said CBC reporter Rob Gordon.

"It's a computer system that links the five eyes. The five eyes are the United States, Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. All their information is shared on the Stone Ghost computer.

"He would go to work every time with a thumb drive and download reams of information, which he would then send to the Russians on a monthly basis. And this went on for years and years and years."

He was paid about $3,000 a month for the information ....

Ouch!  Quite the bargain for the Russians, indeed - not so much for him, though.

It WILL be interesting to see sentencing on this one.

 

[Allgunzblazing]

Wow, I'm in total disbelief!

In my mind, this man committed a crime similar to mass murder because he's breached the security of an entire nation.

I have a few questions, if someone can please enlighten me -

a. Are CF Intelligence personnel (officers, NCM and civilians if there are any) polygraphed during the recruiting process, and subsequently afterwards on a periodic basis?

b. This is a Service Offence, so why is this individual being tried at a civil court? Shouldn't this individual be subject to the Code of Service Discipline? http://www.dnd.ca/somalia/vol1/v1c7e.htm

c. The above mentioned link also clearly states that the death penalty is possible for an act of treason. Why can't the Crown ask for the death sentence rather than life imprisonment?

 

[dapaterson]

a.  Polygraphs may be used during security screenings - I'm not in the business, so I can't say how the decision to conduct / not conduct a polygraph are made.  (And if I was, I probably wouldn't be allowed to say).

b.  In a case like this, the military and civilian authorities would determine where to conduct the trial.  Someone thought a civilian court was a more apporpriate location; not having all the information, I'm not in a place to second-guess that decision.

c.  The death penalty was removed from the code of service discipline a number of years ago.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Given his alleged access to a system that shared pretty secret stuff coming from other countries....

.... this man committed a crime similar to mass murder because he's breached the security of an entire several nations ....

FTFY

 

[Allgunzblazing]

Thanks for the info dapaterson.

It seems to me that a number of scum bags could have been nipped in that bud if polygraphs were routinely administered - Russell Williams, Jeffery Delisle, Christopher Chaulk, etc.

This is only my opinion, I think polygraphs should be made a part of the recruiting process for applicants of all occupations. Yes, there will be cost to this, but the benefits outweigh the cost. Then again, the CF has its own Police Academy, so I'm guessing that they will also have polygraphists. So the resource is (or rather might already be there), unlike some law enforcement agencies which have to rely on contractors for polygraphing their applicants.

 

[Allgunzblazing]

Thanks milnews.

I had forgotten the NATO/ UN/ etc angle.

 

[Journeyman]

..... I think polygraphs should be made a part of the recruiting process for applicants of all occupations. Yes, there will be cost to this, but the benefits outweigh the cost.

Unlike what you see on crime TV shows, polygraphs are far from simple, 100% accurate procedures. Often, their utility lay more in cuing investigators to dig deeper in a particular direction based on the operator's interpretation of the data.

Even in a scenario involving a single suspect, this adds time and cost to any investigation. You want to do this with every CF applicant?

Now, I mention this only because you apparently believe that "the benefits outweigh the cost." I'm not sure what benefits would accrue from polygraphing each and every CF applicant, nor do I believe that you are aware of the costs inherent in your scheme -- not merely financial, but time and opportunity costs.

 

[Allgunzblazing]

I've been polygraphed for employment purposes.

You're absolutely correct about the investigators being cued to dig deeper in a certain direction (when they're interviewing suspects).

However, in employment interviews, the polygraphist digs deeper based on the reactions he gets from the person being interviewed. For example, an applicant may be asked - have you ever committed X offence? The applicant replies "no". Ten unrelated questions later, he's asked - have you ever thought of committing X offence? The candidate again replies "no", but this time the polygraphist sees a slightly different reading. So now, he knows where he must investigate further.

Polygraphs are certainly not fool proof, otherwise findings could be used in a court of law. That being said they are definitely effective. Hundreds of PDs across the globe use this tool.

I think every CF candidate should be polygraphed. At the very least all regular force and officer candidates. But then again - this is just wishful thinking.

 

[Journeyman]

I think every CF candidate should be polygraphed.

Yes, so you've said. To what end, given the inevitable implosion of the recruiting system on several different fronts (timelines, backlogs, # of specialist personnel required, "innocent until proven guilty" issues......)?

What particular crimes are you looking for?

 

[Allgunzblazing]

I'm not looking for any particular crimes. Rather what kind of criminal behaviour particular person may be drawn towards.

Law enforcement agencies polygraph their potential members, and these agencies don't even have access to the vast classified info that DND personnel have access to.

As for the issue of "innocent until proven guilty" - if a person has got nothing to hide, then he/ she has got nothing to be afraid about. Secondly, being interviewed by a polygraphist can't be equated as being tried for a crime. It is simply part of the selection process and a condition of employment (in the agencies where it is used).

Coming back to the case of Sub-Lt Jeffrey Paul Delisle - this guy had been selling secrets since 2007. Now, I don't know if Intelligence personnel are polygraphed, and if they are then how often during their career. I can say, just purely based on statistics, that if the polygraphing was done routinely (assuming its done when an Intelligence Officer/ Member is first recruited), the chances of such a crime to be committed would have been minimized. Yes, as you've correctly pointed out - polygraphing is not a fool proof method.

 

[George Wallace]

I'm not looking for any particular crimes. Rather what kind of criminal behaviour particular person may be drawn towards.

Law enforcement agencies polygraph their potential members, and these agencies don't even have access to the vast classified info that DND personnel have access to.

As for the issue of "innocent until proven guilty" - if a person has got nothing to hide, then he/ she has got nothing to be afraid about. Secondly, being interviewed by a polygraphist can't be equated as being tried for a crime. It is simply part of the selection process and a condition of employment (in the agencies where it is used).

Coming back to the case of Sub-Lt Jeffrey Paul Delisle - this guy had been selling secrets since 2007. Now, I don't know if Intelligence personnel are polygraphed, and if they are then how often during their career. I can say, just purely based on statistics, that if the polygraphing was done routinely (assuming its done when an Intelligence Officer/ Member is first recruited), the chances of such a crime to be committed would have been minimized. Yes, as you've correctly pointed out - polygraphing is not a fool proof method.

Are you sure that you have a complete and comprehensive knowledge of how polygraphs really work?  Do you also have any idea of how time consuming it is to polygraph just one person, let alone 60k?

Polygraphs make, even a honest person nervous which can then lead to all kinds of negative reactions and readings.  As for some of your examples of people who should have been polygraphed, if they were pathological liars or psychopaths, they could easily fool a polygraph.  Then where does that leave you?  You are no safer then, than you are now.

 

[Neolithium]

  Then where does that leave you?  You are no safer then, than you are now.

Not safer just a little more broke due to having to pay for the polygraphs and the personnel to administer the tests.

 

[Journeyman]

......and these agencies don't even have access to the vast classified info that DND personnel have access to.

Ah yes, all those recruit truckers, infanteers, airplane propeller-changers.....who are already overwhelmed swimming upstream to get to St Jean as it is.

I think that you are proposing an unnecessary and not remotely foolproof solution to a virtually non-existent problem, which if implemented will cause many more problems than it could ever potentially solve.

Oh, and "if a person has got nothing to hide, then he/ she has got nothing to be afraid about," kind of flies in the face of constitutional ethics here in Canada...notwithstanding the wrongful accusations from false positives that are statistically inevitable, which would climb dramatically in your system. I suspect if suspended because of a mistaken interpretation, you'd be less likely to shrug and say, "hey, if you've got nothing to hide...."


Anyway, feel free to have the last word; any further attempt at making a point would be repetitious.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Loads of polygraph pros and cons already bashed about here:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/65788.0/all.html

 

[fraserdw]

There is no way to protect the system from this, this guy was in a trade that goes to great pains to ensure it gets secure stable people for this very reason.  The fact is that greed, ambition and un-patriotic behavior are hard to qualify in personnel selection.  What can be put in place is the systems to limit this.  In banks, they system remote systems that are data loaded centrally, no one has access to a USB port to down load data.  It is long past time that the GoC consider installing such dumb terminals.  This guy walked around a high security area with an outside USB stick, here we are not allowed to bring USB sticks in high security areas and the sticks we use in HS areas are marked very obiviously for use only in that area.

 

[dapaterson]

Our neighbours to the south saw someone bring in "music DVDs" that were blanks, which he in turn filled with classified data (the WikiLeaks incident).  We are not alone in failing to properly secure data and systems.

 

[George Wallace]

..........  This guy walked around a high security area with an outside USB stick, here we are not allowed to bring USB sticks in high security areas and the sticks we use in HS areas are marked very obiviously for use only in that area.

Those rules are in place.  He flaunted those rules if he did bring in a USB stick, or any other electronic or non-electronic recording device. 

I suppose that would bring us to the next illogical suggestion; everyone requiring access to a "Secure environment" must enter and leave naked.  Then we would also have to hire persons to stand there and conduct "Body Searches" of body cavities.  Time to invest in a company that produces surgical gloves.

 

[Occam]

It is long past time that the GoC consider installing such dumb terminals. 

The GoC is way ahead of you.  Go onto DWAN and search for "Virtual Hosted Desktop".

 

[jollyjacktar]

Not being a IT genius, how could he bring in an outside stick and download.  On ship, hell even in the shore office if we to stick an outside stick in a work station the CCR is onto us like gangbusters and you're in for a righteous shitkicking.  I would think that at numpties work, Trinity or elsewhere the work stations there would have screamed blue bloody murder at some outside gear  being introduced.  But then, as this did happen, apparently I am very mistaken.  ???