Issued Tac Vest

[Jarnhamar]

I didn't want to make a new thread for my bitching.

I just spent 45 minutes wrestling with my tacvest trying to get one of the side pockets off, i just had to cut the velcro off and will have to sew it back on later.
Are we suposed to be able to get these things off in a hurry?  Maybe with a knife. These little shitty velco straps are insane to try and manipulate.

I know tacvest bashing is a dead horse.  The more I use use the tacvest the more and more i am disipointed with it.  I'm glad the CF took a step in the right direction and decided we needed something new. I really wish they would have took a much bigger step.

I'm trying to put everything into it i'm required to as per kitlist for a reserve infantry soldier. I don't have enough room. I can't imagine how what it's like for the guys in afghanastan right now trying to use this.  There is absolutely no room for food or ammo or anything operational.

This vest may be acceptable for soldiers wearing it on gate guard duty or driving in a truck but it's criminal to send out guys out on patrol with this thing.
Just venting..



I think i'm going to say fuck it and buy some aftermarket kit. Maybe i can sneak by using my own ruck or tacvest on an ex or if i'm lucky enough to deploy.

Could you guys throw up a few links to some companies that sell (in your opinion) good vests and rucksacks?  (in addition to the ones below)
I did a little shopping on Canadian Peacekeeper. Some of their prices are ridiculas. I don't mind paying good money for good kit but after $209 for that cadpat patrol pack I'm going to pull my head out of my ass and shop around.

 

[Andyboy]

Ghost 778,

PM me.

 

[LMN]

Lets be realistic, everyone is going to have differing opinions on whether or not they like the issued kit.  I think one of the few exceptions to that rule is the bivi-bag.

With that said, there does appear to be certain adaptability flaws with the design, particularly in respect to the M203.  One thing I'm certainly disappointed with is the fact that there's no extra room for more mags.  To be honest, who really only carries 5 mags unless they have no choice in the matter?  There's nothing more useless than a box of ammo in the middle of a firefight.

I think perhaps they approached the whole design from the wrong viewpoint.  I really think they should have had two different designs: one for the combat trades and one for the support trades.  The TV works perfect for what I do in the field as a lineman but I certainly wouldn't want to use it doing a whole lot of infantry-style fighting.  Although it'd cost a lot more to put out two types of webbing/vests, it might suit more people and make everyone happier.

In any case, I also noticed that the TV works excellent when doing FIBUA operations.  If anyone hasn't noticed by now, the world is moving towards urban combat more and more and Iraq is just another perfect example.  I think it would be foolish to think that they didn't have that in mind when they designed the vest in the first place.

Anyways, just my 2 centz

 

[Britney Spears]

1) This has already been addressed in the old tac vest thread.

2) This is exactly the kind of "us vs them, I'm not infantry so I don't need real webbing" mentality that we should all be trying to eliminate. What other army in the world issues a seperate set of webbing for CSS troops? Do you need your webbing to type pay sheets or fix trucks or drink coffee in the rad van? I can do all of those things wearing shower thongs and a light coat of oil (on the friction bearing surfaces).  Some of you guys don't seem to realize that your webbing is used for INFANTRY COMBAT, nothing else.

Now within a section, different roles require different webbing configurations (for medics, engineers, signallers), that means you carry MORE stuff, not less. That's why the dumb infantrymen all wish they could be like you right? The modular stuff would solve this problem.

The whole point is still to win the firefight and kill the enemy. You do NOT need a seperate vest so you can carry LESS ammo.

 

[KevinB]

In any case, I also noticed that the TV works excellent when doing FIBUA operations.   If anyone hasn't noticed by now, the world is moving towards urban combat more and more and Iraq is just another perfect example.   I think it would be foolish to think that they didn't have that in mind when they designed the vest in the first place.

REALLY.  and you noticed this on your Urban Op Insructor course....  I figured in MOUT/FIBUA/CQB envintonment I might want fast acess to my mags, and pyro  :

  The TV blows dead donkey dick.


The PSP DHTC ChestRig - wow room for mags (pistol/carbine) and bangers etc...  Golly Gee wilikers it also works with the M203 - Imagine that, all that in ONE vest...  (of course it does not work for LMG gunners very well - but we can fix that by making the center rifle/carbine pouches modular like the rest of the vest)

 

[Britney Spears]

So those pants, can you do a #2 without taking them off?

 

[Kal]

And where did you happen to find this vest, Kevin?.....

 

[KevinB]

Britney - yup in theory, though I'm not sure I that co-ordinated I'd want to chance it  :-\

Kal - it followed me home  ;D

The 101st recently had a vest made that is somewhat similar.  If one looks down south their individual Brigades are buying kit specifically made for their missions. 

IMHO the Chest Rig could be improved by going 100% MOLLE/PALS - and extending the chest section 2" to make room between the pistol/m203/banger pouch and the rifle/carbine mag pouches - also it would give the option of adopting a more slimline front if one did not feel they needed as many magazines or if one was a LMG gunner.  Plus the H harness instead of X etc.

I hope to be able to work with a few people on this and get an example built this month, and a hybrid RAV/Warhammer setup that is releaseable but with a full front cumberbund and integral to vest mag pockets on the front.

 

[LMN]

It's good to see all the flames I've sparked on my first ever post...

Britney, I understand where you're coming from but I think perhaps you're not seeing the whole picture here.  Lets try and remember that not all CSS troops make coffee in the back of a rad van and file pay sheets.  What I'm getting at, is that during normal work in the field, most combat support people just need the basics, and preferably something that is not going to interfere with their normal tasks.  Cumbersome and bulky kit just gets thrown aside when it gets in the way especially when working with heavy equipment and in vehicles.   Indeed they'll need to defend themselves as neccessary, but they probably don't require the type of ammo/equipment that perhaps an infantryman would need during daily operations.  Perhaps building a second type of webbing/vest is a bit extreme; maybe it just requires a lot more adaptability than it already has.

 

[Britney Spears]

Cumbersome and bulky kit just gets thrown aside when it gets in the way especially when working with heavy equipment and in vehicles.  Indeed they'll need to defend themselves as neccessary, but they probably don't require the type of ammo/equipment that perhaps an infantryman would need during daily operations.

Fair enough. Personally I'd just keep things simple and drop the kit if I needed to(if you don't need it, leave it in the truck) , but you see my point, we are merely nitpicking over personal preferences.


Although I, too, was a little perplexed as to why you think the TV is "perfectly suited" for FIBUA. Unless by "Urban" you mean Tim Horton's........

 

[KevinB]

Unless by "Urban" you mean Tim Horton's........

Dude stop your killing me...

 

[LMN]

I don't believe I said perfectly suited, but it works well.  If you look at any SWAT team around the world...where do they wear the gear?  Now obviously the TV has certain adaptability shortcomings, but the concept is on the right track.


Fighting the civies standing between me and my toasted bagel in the morning is more than enough to be classed as a FIBUA OP.

 

[Infanteer]

SWAT teams do not fight urban battles.

 

[Blackhorse7]

Infanteer....

I would have to disagree with your last comment.  True, SWAT/ERT may not have to fight PROLONGED FIBUA battles, but the very essence of what they do is just that, in a shorter timeframe.  That being said, our needs are different.  Police are restricted to the type of clearing they can do (ie no frag thru the door, and then dynamic entry).  As well, in an urban environment, I shudder to think about the scenario that an ERT Team member would need any more than five mags.  A rural setting, again, entirely different.  Look at Oka and Gustafson Lake.  I would personally want to bomb up with as much ammo as I could carry in those incidents.  I know our ERT Team has different load carry capabilities for both.

 

[Canadian Sig]

  As well, in an urban environment, I shudder to think about the scenario that an ERT Team member would need any more than five mags.  

  Think Bank of America robbery in LA.

 

[Infanteer]

Blackhorse.

As far as I understand it, SWAT teams are used for tactical arrests.  There is a cordon thrown around the area and the team makes a dynamic entry in order to detain the suspects.

Conversely, soldiers have to fight through an urban environment - the battle is much more fluid and dynamic and the target/enemy is constantly popping up and shifting around (this is why soldiers don't (or shouldn't) stack like SWAT teams).  As well, the mission is alot different - it may be to destroy the enemy, it may be to occupy certain strategic areas and hold them, etc, etc. 

It seems to be that although they do the same thing (go into a building) and have some similarities, tactical policing and and MOUT are two different animals.

 

[Blackhorse7]

I'm certainly not suggesting that they are the same, but not all ERT callouts are one's where a barricaded suspect is in a know location.  There is often times where ERT has to go looking for the suspect in a silent search.  Once he (them) are located, the search goes dynamic, with noise discipline out the window.  The game now becomes speed.

As for the LA shootout, I knew someone would bring that up.  I can't say I have all the facts, but my understanding was that the SWAT teams down there did not have their AR 15's, and the average patrolman was forbidden to carry slugs for their shotguns.  Without getting into the whole body armour debate, we have slugs in our cars, and our ERT team rolls with all their weapons.  But getting back to the point, just from looking at the TV, and the FIBUA battles that are being fought, I agree that it is substandard.  I think the right way to go would be modular, with a complement of pockets issued to all soldiers.  That way the SAW gunner could bomb up the way he wants, the grenadier the way he wants, and the infanteer the way he wants.

Someone else said it earlier... a step in the right direction, but not thought out well enough.

 

[BetterThanTheBest]

I think what LMN was saying by mentioning the SWAT teams is that switching to any type of chest rig was a good thing compared to webbing. While the TV is the type of thing we need, It is inadequate. In my opinion it seems very rushed and not completely thought out.

 

[Blackhorse7]

Totally agree, and maybe I got off topic too.  What I was driving at is that is is stunningly retarded to think that five mags would suffice for the fluid combat of FIBUA.  Many of the aftermarket vests and chest rigs I have been seeing have space for at least 9 mags, if not more.  And like I said before, what if you are a SAW gunner or a grenadier?  The current issue TV is an infantry man only vest, and a poor one at that.  That being said though, I wish we had it when I was still in.... be much more comfortable than webbing when doing route recce's.

 

[Britney Spears]

be much more comfortable than webbing when doing route recce's.

Ha! that's what YOU think!  ;D 


I give up trying to convince you guys.Although, to be fair, the comfort advantages of the webbing are negated somewhat by the advent of hard armour vests. For a militia ex, the webbing wins hands down in comfort......