Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)

[Cdn Blackshirt]

For those waxing poet about the huge difference between the religion of Islam and Islamist, stop reading the headlines and do your own research....in particular read the texts yourself.

Islam is the religion.

Islamists are those following the tenets of the religion.

And for those that say "It's a tiny portion of the population committing the attacks." - Yep.  But ask yourself what the true support levels are for their actions.

Imams can draw thousands of Muslims into the streets chanting "Death to _________" over cartoons, fake movies and a number of other perceived slights of the religion.

Not to mention their views on Guantanamo.....

Why is we're not seeing those same Imam's calling for mass demonstration against terrorist attacks? 

If you think about it, you're not going to like the answer which is "There is popular support for jihad." 

If there wasn't, you would have seen dramatically different messages and actions coming from the mosques....including extremely clear messaging about what jihad entails, when it is justified, what it includes....and most importantly what is not justified, what is heresy, what will not entitle the attackers to be buried in a Islamic Ceremonies.  When those statements begin to be issued, then and only then will I consider us making real progress.


M.

 

[Jed]

For those waxing poet about the huge difference between the religion of Islam and Islamist, stop reading the headlines and do your own research....in particular read the texts yourself.

Islam is the religion.

Islamists are those following the tenets of the religion.

And for those that say "It's a tiny portion of the population committing the attacks." - Yep.  But ask yourself what the true support levels are for their actions.

Imams can draw thousands of Muslims into the streets chanting "Death to _________" over cartoons, fake movies and a number of other perceived slights of the religion.

Not to mention their views on Guantanamo.....

Why is we're not seeing those same Imam's calling for mass demonstration against terrorist attacks? 

If you think about it, you're not going to like the answer which is "There is popular support for jihad." 

If there wasn't, you would have seen dramatically different messages and actions coming from the mosques....including extremely clear messaging about what jihad entails, when it is justified, what it includes....and most importantly what is not justified, what is heresy, what will not entitle the attackers to be buried in a Islamic Ceremonies.  When those statements begin to be issued, then and only then will I consider us making real progress.


M.

Good Post. I hope everyone lets this message sink in.  :goodpost:

 

[George Wallace]

Good Post. I hope everyone lets this message sink in.

Unfortunately that message has been out for a long time and has not sunk in yet.

 

[Teager]

This is just the smae story of the 2 accused in the VIA rail plot from the Toronto Star. At the bottom of the article this is what is said by a man from the mosque in Scarborough.

"Esseghaier was “a very nice guy, very intelligent, very humble,” Mohamed Ali told the Star earlier this month.

Jaser, he said, was also a nice guy — the kind who would lend you money or give you a ride — but he did talk every so often about radicalism, Ali said.

“I just thought it was coffee talk,” he said."

More at link http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/05/23/toronto_terror_plot_suspect_asks_for_defence_lawyer_who_is_guided_by_holy_book.html

So from what I understand its normal to talk about radicalism during coffee? I think this just goes to further a lot of the points above.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Part of the problem for a moderate Muslim is there is significant pressure to follow the crowd or the Iman, both verbally and physically. Islam is about submission and that allows it to be abused and people to be reluctant to question Fatwa's and edicts.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Part of the problem for a moderate Muslim is there is significant pressure to follow the crowd or the Iman, both verbally and physically. Islam is about submission and that allows it to be abused and people to be reluctant to question Fatwa's and edicts.

I agree, I have heard this from Muslims in Canada and in Asia.

 

[George Wallace]

Those very few who do raise more "modern" concerns and voice their disapproval of violence are often ostracised by the rest of the Muslim community.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I don't think most of us realize the risk those people take that do stand up. Hell most people here won't stand up to tell their boss that "dumbass idea de jour" is just that.

Also having watched my own inlaws grapple with stuff, I equate it to a similar situation with abused spouses staying with the abuser.

 

[Jed]

You are right about the difficulty of standing up and being counted. It never has been easy but I think if you are Muslim, this is the time it must be done. Riding the fence has gone on way to long.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Part of the problem for a moderate Muslim is there is significant pressure to follow the crowd or the Iman, both verbally and physically. Islam is about submission and that allows it to be abused and people to be reluctant to question Fatwa's and edicts.

I agree, I have heard this from Muslims in Canada and in Asia.

Those very few who do raise more "modern" concerns and voice their disapproval of violence are often ostracised by the rest of the Muslim community.

Thanks, all, for these tidbits - I've scratched my head a lot about why we don't hear more from (what I'm guessing is) the silent majority of Muslims in the West who just want to live their lives, period.

 

[2 Cdo]

If so-called moderate muslims were the majority wouldn't it be easy for them to rise up as one? Or is this just smoke and mirrors due to a tacit support for "extreme" muslim behaviour.  ???

 

[old fart]

You tube clip....a young lady called Stacy Dooley returns to her home town of Luton.....

I first watched this a year ago....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juf9cxPucLM

Titled "TIP OF THE ICEBERG THE BEGINNING OF THE END FOR BRITAIN"

Sharia, the solution for the UK.....feck me.....

 

[The Bread Guy]

If so-called moderate muslims were the majority wouldn't it be easy for them to rise up as one? Or is this just smoke and mirrors due to a tacit support for "extreme" muslim behaviour.  ???

If the pressure is real, it might be more like this....

.... I equate it to a similar situation with abused spouses staying with the abuser.

 

[Jed]

You tube clip....a young lady called Stacy Dooley returns to her home town of Luton.....

I first watched this a year ago....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juf9cxPucLM

Titled "TIP OF THE ICEBERG THE BEGINNING OF THE END FOR BRITAIN"

Sharia, the solution for the UK.....feck me.....

That young lady showed a lot of guts. I've been in a similar situation myself and the pucker factor can get pretty high. How long can the British people tolerate this BS?

Where are the Brits of old that tossed Neville Chamberlain out on his arse and put in Churchill?

 

[Edward Campbell]

I think many "moderate" Muslims have some - not a lot, but some - sympathy for those who are said to be victims of Western aggression. It is all too easy to forget that many Western interventions have been to protect Muslims - the Balkans, for example - because in so many cases all we see and hear, in the Western media, are reports of Muslim victims of violence. It is too easy to ignore the fact, and it is a fact, that many (most?) Muslims are victims of Muslim violence.

We know that there was considerable, collective blame levied at Muslims - it wasn't from official Washington, or London, or Ottawa, but it was there all the same.  It's a bit hard to blame many Muslims for being both a bit defensive and a bit confused; they are told, in one breath, that we're all equal and all religions are equally safe and free and then, in the next breath, they're told that they cannot build a cultural centre too close to "ground zero," the site of the former World Trade Center.

In Asia moderate Muslims are under increasing pressure to Arabize their worship and even their general cultural practices. Middle Eastern social mores are being imposed - not just dress codes for women, which are not, I'm assured by well educated Muslims, mandated in the Qur'an, but customs that are quite foreign to both Islam and Asia. That's why I think a Muslim Reformation might begin in Indonesia or, more likely, Malaysia.

But what I think we see, here, in North America, is confusion: "moderate" Muslims are, themselves, confused by the mixed messages we - the established, mainly Christian majority - send to them and also by the decidedly mixed messages they hear in their mosques and read in community newspapers. Much of the Muslim leadership seems convinced that only imans and mullahs who were trained in the Middle East or Iran are acceptable - if we're going to limit foreign workers we could, usefully, start by restricting foreign preachers.

As others have said, it's had for anyone to speak out when the majority is silent; it's harder when there is a minority that opposes or harasses those who do speak out. We should not expect more of Muslims than we see from Christians - who are not famous for opposing the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, Karadzic and Mladic.

 

[Jed]

I think many "moderate" Muslims have some - not a lot, but some - sympathy for those who are said to be victims of Western aggression. It is all too easy to forget that many Western interventions have been to protect Muslims - the Balkans, for example - because in so many cases all we see and hear, in the Western media, are reports of Muslim victims of violence. It is too easy to ignore the fact, and it is a fact, that many (most?) Muslims are victims of Muslim violence.

We know that there was considerable, collective blame levied at Muslims - it wasn't from official Washington, or London, or Ottawa, but it was there all the same.  It's a bit hard to blame many Muslims for being both a bit defensive and a bit confused; they are told, in one breath, that we're all equal and all religions are equally safe and free and then, in the next breath, they're told that they cannot build a cultural centre too close to "ground zero," the site of the former World Trade Center.

In Asia moderate Muslims are under increasing pressure to Arabize their worship and even their general cultural practices. Middle Eastern social mores are being imposed - not just dress codes for women, which are not, I'm assured by well educated Muslims, mandated in the Qur'an, but customs that are quite foreign to both Islam and Asia. That's why I think a Muslim Reformation might begin in Indonesia or, more likely, Malaysia.

But what I think we see, here, in North America, is confusion: "moderate" Muslims are, themselves, confused by the mixed messages we - the established, mainly Christian majority - send to them and also by the decidedly mixed messages they hear in their mosques and read in community newspapers. Much of the Muslim leadership seems convinced that only imans and mullahs who were trained in the Middle East or Iran are acceptable - if we're going to limit foreign workers we could, usefully, start by restricting foreign preachers.

As others have said, it's had for anyone to speak out when the majority is silent; it's harder when there is a minority that opposes or harasses those who do speak out. We should not expect more of Muslims than we see from Christians - who are not famous for opposing the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, Karadzic and Mladic.

I agree that we should not expect more of Christians vs Muslims. I think we should expect more of all peoples in our democratic nations. A whole lot more.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I recall several people living in dictatorships who believe that only they felt oppressed and were surprised to find that many felt the same way about the regime. On top of the fear of exclusion from society, you have a very real fear of very viscous thugs that will likely or want to torture you and your family and you have religious induced guilt. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

Overheard a lot of racism and anti-muslim comments at a gun show this weekend.  Pretty embarrassing. It's too bad that  the actions of psychopaths can cast so many people in such a dark light.

As others have said, it's had for anyone to speak out when the majority is silent; it's harder when there is a minority that opposes or harasses those who do speak out. We should not expect more of Muslims than we see from Christians - who are not famous for opposing the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, Karadzic and Mladic.

Totally agree.

 

[Jed]

When all freedom loving nations went to war against the likes of Hitler and Mussolini our soldiers fought against all the German and Italian soldiers of those nations not just Nazis and SS. Many good human beings were not deserving of where karma had placed them. If our battle is against Islamism, many good Muslims will pay the price as will many good Christians, Buddhists, Atheists etal.

We can not hope and wish that the battle will just go away. It is a battle that must be fought if we wish to preserve our democratic societies.

Prejudice and racism is in all people to some extent. In times of war this is often used to strengthen the resolve of combatants to do the (what should be anyway) unthinkable, take the life of an enemy.

But, most of you have signed on the dotted line at some time in the past to fight against your nation's enemies, so this soapbox speech is redundant.

I feel for the timid and innocent peaceful Muslims, but only they can truly be in the vanguard of dealing with Muslim extremists. They will have a tough row to hoe but their collective complacency makes it imperative that democratic societies take action to eradicate this Muslim terrorist blight on mankind.

 

[OldSolduer]

:ditto: :goodpost:


Well said.